Everything is permissable?

Open Heart

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What you fail to grasp, apparently, is that Judaism and Christianity are different religions.
And what you are failing to grasp is that Messianic Judaism falls into the midway, it is both Christianity and Judaism. And don't tell me that they are not accepted as Judaism by Jews because this is debated -- there are a few big names in Orthodoxy who do accept them as heretics on par with Chabad. Given time, certain denominations will become more acceptable.
 
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danny ski

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And what you are failing to grasp is that Messianic Judaism falls into the midway, it is both Christianity and Judaism. And don't tell me that they are not accepted as Judaism by Jews because this is debated -- there are a few big names in Orthodoxy who do accept them as heretics on par with Chabad. Given time, certain denominations will become more acceptable.
No. It's not debated. I belong to a Conservative congregation and spend Yom Kippur with the Chabadnics and believe me, there's no debate. The MJ movement, like the Jews for Jesus, is considered a predetory Christian sect. Nothing else. The heretics you speak of are the Jews who chose non Jewish path. Not Messianic "converts". There's no midway between Christianity and Judaism because there's no such thing as half Jew. You either are or aren't.
 
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Open Heart

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The MJ movement, like the Jews for Jesus, is considered a predetory Christian sect.
The MJs I'm referring to do not missionize Jews. Kinzer wrote a book called "Post Missionary Messianic Judaism." One of the problems is that you are lumping all MJs together while I'm specifying a unique subgroup that has it together as far a Jews observing Judaism, and Gentiles being the exception in their midst.
 
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danny ski

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The MJs I'm referring to do not missionize Jews. Kinzer wrote a book called "Post Missionary Messianic Judaism." One of the problems is that you are lumping all MJs together while I'm specifying a unique subgroup that has it together as far a Jews observing Judaism, and Gentiles being the exception in their midst.
As they use to say "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride".
 
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pinacled

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As they use to say "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride".
I was reading in Numbers recently and noticed something peculiar. Or interesting with perspective.
If you are Orthodox I would like to know what you have been taught, if permissible.
First in Genesis.
9
And the sons of Reuben: Hanoch, and Pallu, and Hezron, and Carmi.

Secondly in Numbers.
5
And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of Reuben, Elizur the son of Shedeur.

Did I miss something?
 
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Lulav

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I was reading in Numbers recently and noticed something peculiar. Or interesting with perspective.
If you are Orthodox I would like to know what you have been taught, if permissible.
First in Genesis.
9
And the sons of Reuben: Hanoch, and Pallu, and Hezron, and Carmi.

Secondly in Numbers.
5
And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of Reuben, Elizur the son of Shedeur.

Did I miss something?
If I may?

The sons of Reuben, born to him say around 1700bce. Now when they left Egypt it was 400=/- years later.

So what Numbers is recording are the elders from that tribe during that time.

Moses for example was from the tribe of Levi, Levi's second son Kohath's son was Amram who was the father of Moses, then Moses had sons too. So you see there were at least three generations apart from the original tribal head to the ones descended from them to be numbed.

But of course you won't see a listing for Moses because:But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not numbered among them.
 
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Truthfrees

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It's not gentiles making the decision. It's a beit din.

Look, I know you don't like this, and you aren't going to accept it. But it's still not what you are making it out to be. I wish you would at least read the artical on it. http://ourrabbis.org/main/articles/on-conversion-mainmenu-32
This is an outstanding article. :oldthumbsup:

This perfectly describes the various leanings of Messianic Gentiles:
1. those who desire a full Jewish identity and are passionate about keeping Torah.
2. those who are blessed to keep Torah at various self-directed levels without a full Jewish identity.

IMO, if MJism trends in this direction, it will grow stronger.
:groupray:
 
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