Evangelicals: Are billions of people going to burn in hell?

[Dave-W]

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:3-4).

Let me give you a more ACCURATE translation: (the NASB)

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

OR - the TLV (perhaps even closer to the Greek than NASB)

3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior.
4 He desires all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth.

Unfortunately, that desire goes unfulfilled.

 

[D. A. Taylor]

Thanks for your particular denomination's mini theology lesson. However, I choose to follow the Scriptures. And in John 12:32, the Greek is hel-koo'-o, which every Greek authority agrees to mean "pull" or "drag." Notice these other verses where this particular word is used:

James 2:6: But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

John 21:11 Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.

Act 16:19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities...

Act 21:30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

Of course, the thought of God dragging people to Himself to be saved, did not fit in with the theology of most Bible translators. So they decided that John 6:44 & John 12:32 "has to" mean something else.

I suggest that you refer to Walter Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon for a definitive description of what hel-koo'-o means. Look at page 251d.

 

[D. A. Taylor]

Let me give you a more ACCURATE translation: (the NASB)

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

OR - the TLV (perhaps even closer to the Greek than NASB)

3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior.
4 He desires all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth.

Unfortunately, that desire goes unfulfilled.

Actually, Strong's explains the word as well as anybody. Look:

thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).

So it's pretty much up to the translator to decide whether it's "will have" or "desires." But we can find the definitive answer to this question here:

"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance (Isaiah 45:22-23).

Pretty hard to get around this verse (and there are several more like it).

 

[BobRyan]

How many times have you twisted it to say something it does not actually say?

He DRAWS all men but not all men respond to His draw.
Most will in fact reject it.

True - because of free will they are not robotized to always accept giving no other thought to it - and having a sinful nature they often choose to reject the Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus gave the answer:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw [Greek:drag] all men unto me" (John 12:32).

And Paul affirmed it:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:3-4).

And there are several other verses...if you are interested...

Drag -- as in


So in the Sept. LXX, e.g., Sgs 1:4; Jer 31:3, "with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."


Rev 3 does not agree with your quote
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Rev 22 does not agree with your quote
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68668377, member: 235244"]

Romans 10 Explains a lot

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Rev 3 does not agree with your quote
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Rev 22 does not agree with your quote
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



"His own free will"??

John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto me" -- that is supernatural. God's drawing fully enables the choice to accept the Gospel that depravity disables.

Your quotes of "man" as compared to the Bible - do not hold up.

in Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]

 

[D. A. Taylor]

Drag -- as in


So in the Sept. LXX, e.g., Sgs 1:4; Jer 31:3, "with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."


Rev 3 does not agree with your quote
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Rev 22 does not agree with your quote
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68668377, member: 235244"]

Romans 10 Explains a lot

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Rev 3 does not agree with your quote
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Rev 22 does not agree with your quote
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



"His own free will"??

John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto me" -- that is supernatural. God's drawing fully enables the choice to accept the Gospel that depravity disables.

Your quotes of "man" as compared to the Bible - do not hold up.

in Christ,

Bob

[/QUOTE]

How sad. Just like with most of organized religion, it's more important for many to defend orthodoxy, than to believe the Scriptures.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

The answer to OP's question are yes.
All those after the institution of the New Covenant, who do not die in Christ, are lost.
And the "Awwww"-factor is utterly irrelevant.

 

[Dave-W]

But we can find the definitive answer to this question here:

"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance (Isaiah 45:22-23).

Pretty hard to get around this verse (and there are several more like it).

No need to "get around" it at all.

God calls us all to Himself. Some respond and are saved, the rest are not.

But in the final judgement, everyone will bow before Him as judge as he sentences them to either eternal salvation or eternal destruction.

This Isaiah passage is referred to in the Alenu prayer that ends most Jewish services. It is speaking of the time of the Messianic Kingdom (equivalent to the Millennium) when Messiah shall physically reign on earth; which means it does NOT apply to everyone from all time. This is the last half of the prayer:

Adonai is our God, there is none else.
Our God is truth, and nothing else compares. As it
is written in Your Torah: "And you shall know today, and take to
heart, that Adonai is the only God, in the heavens above and on Earth below.
There is no other."
Therefore we put our hope in You, Adonai our God,to soon see the glory of
Your strength, to remove all idols from the Earth,and to completely cut off
all false gods; to repair the world, Your holy empire. And for all living flesh
to call Your name, and for all the wicked of the Earth to turn to You. May all
the world's inhabitants recognize and know that to You every knee must
bend and every tongue must swear loyalty. Before You, Adonai, our God,
may all bow down, and give honor to Your precious name, and may all take
upon themselves the yoke of Your rule. And may You reign over them soon
and forever and always. Because all rule is Yours alone, and You will rule
in honor forever and ever. As it is written in Your Torah:
"Adonai will reign forever and ever."
And it is said: "Adonai will be Ruler over the whole Earth, and on that day,
God will be One, and God's name will be One.

 

[Dave-W]

Just like with most of organized religion, it's more important for many to defend orthodoxy, than to believe the Scriptures.

That statement assumes that "orthodoxy" has nothing to do with the scriptures. I suppose in some instances that may be true, but certainly not in this case.

Believing the scriptures (in accuracy) defends orthodoxy in this case.

 

[HighwayMan]

The answer to OP's question are yes.
All those after the institution of the New Covenant, who do not die in Christ, are lost.
And the "Awwww"-factor is utterly irrelevant.

Ok, thanks for the direct answer.

As a follow-up question though, I would ask: Do you feel that the babies, mentally handicapped etc. are morally guilty and deserving of hell for failing to be able to understand about Christ....or is it more of a case of where Christ would feel sorry for them, but there is no way for Him to change the rules?

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Ok, thanks for the direct answer.

As a follow-up question though, I would ask: Do you feel that the babies, mentally handicapped etc. are morally guilty and deserving of hell for failing to be able to understand about Christ....or is it more of a case of where Christ would feel sorry for them, but there is no way for Him to change the rules?

You're trying to impose the "awww"-factor on a discussion in which it does not belong, much like those who insist on the anti-biblical "Age of reason"-argument in order to get around the "Awww poor widdle babies!"-imposition, but retain the "Hah! That'll learn those difficult teens!"-position. Note that I'm not saying "those" include you. I don't know if it does.

ALL humans, without exception other than Christ Himself, are sinners. All ARE lost by definition. The only way for ANYONE to be saved, is through Christ.
I also do not accept the claim that "mentally handicapped" (a very, very, VERY broad category) cannot have this faith.
Sure, they might not be able to give the same kind of intellectual defense of the faith that a trained theologian can. Nor should they be expected to. Nor is such necessary for salvation.

 

[HighwayMan]

You're trying to impose the "awww"-factor on a discussion in which it does not belong, much like those who insist on the anti-biblical "Age of reason"-argument in order to get around the "Awww poor widdle babies!"-imposition, but retain the "Hah! That'll learn those difficult teens!"-position. Note that I'm not saying "those" include you. I don't know if it does.

ALL humans, without exception other than Christ Himself, are sinners. All ARE lost by definition. The only way for ANYONE to be saved, is through Christ.
I also do not accept the claim that "mentally handicapped" (a very, very, VERY broad category) cannot have this faith.
Sure, they might not be able to give the same kind of intellectual defense of the faith that a trained theologian can. Nor should they be expected to. Nor is such necessary for salvation.

I'm sorry but absolutely nowhere in a single post in this thread have I said anything about "Awww poor widdle babies!" This is your addition. You and everyone else is welcome to search everything I have said, but all I am doing is asking a direct and straight question. "Are babies going to hell?" is not "Awww are poor widdle babies going to hell!" -it's "Are babies going to hell?" A question about what the Gospel message means for this specific category, which is millions upon millions of souls.

Second - if you re-read the OP, I am not asking about a broad category of mentally handicapped, I am asking specifically about those deemed so severely mentally impaired that they can not even pass the lowest of grade schools or even form coherent thoughts. Such adults do in fact exist, and have very severe mental dysfunctions, and are in need of constant care their entire lives.

Answering my question with "ALL Humans" is what I'm not asking for though. I ask for this specific category, let's leave it as babies for now. It is so very easy to say "all humans are sinners deserving of hell", but why is it so much harder for people to answer specifically about babies? Do they not count in this "all human" category? If it's all humans, then it's all babies as well, correct?

So, to ask again, very specifically, about the millions of souls who have passed away as babies or very young children without ever believing in Christ - are these babies morally guilty and deserving of hell for failing to be old enough to understand and believe? What are your thoughts on this?

 

[D. A. Taylor]

No need to "get around" it at all.

God calls us all to Himself. Some respond and are saved, the rest are not.

But in the final judgement, everyone will bow before Him as judge as he sentences them to either eternal salvation or eternal destruction.

This Isaiah passage is referred to in the Alenu prayer that ends most Jewish services. It is speaking of the time of the Messianic Kingdom (equivalent to the Millennium) when Messiah shall physically reign on earth; which means it does NOT apply to everyone from all time. This is the last half of the prayer:

Adonai is our God, there is none else.
Our God is truth, and nothing else compares. As it
is written in Your Torah: "And you shall know today, and take to
heart, that Adonai is the only God, in the heavens above and on Earth below.
There is no other."
Therefore we put our hope in You, Adonai our God,to soon see the glory of
Your strength, to remove all idols from the Earth,and to completely cut off
all false gods; to repair the world, Your holy empire. And for all living flesh
to call Your name, and for all the wicked of the Earth to turn to You. May all
the world's inhabitants recognize and know that to You every knee must
bend and every tongue must swear loyalty. Before You, Adonai, our God,
may all bow down, and give honor to Your precious name, and may all take
upon themselves the yoke of Your rule. And may You reign over them soon
and forever and always. Because all rule is Yours alone, and You will rule
in honor forever and ever. As it is written in Your Torah:
"Adonai will reign forever and ever."
And it is said: "Adonai will be Ruler over the whole Earth, and on that day,
God will be One, and God's name will be One.

Sorry, but I'm not really interested in Jewish prayers. Instead, I believe Scripture. And the Scripture says this:

"every tongue will swear allegiance"

So it is very clear that you have chosen orthodoxy over Scripture.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

1: I pretty specifically said that I didn't say that YOU were among "those".

2: I have stated plain and simple a few times by now: EVERY...SINGLE....HUMAN...BEING... is deserving of nothing at all, but hell. There isn't a single human being with the exception of Jesus, who deserves anything else.
If humans got what we deserved - not a single person would be saved. Thank God for Christ.

....literally.

 

[D. A. Taylor]

Thanks again for what is nothing more than your personal opinion. We can mix it with the varied opinions of 75,000 Christian denominations and make a great orthodox soup.

 

[Hawkins]

Answering my question with "ALL Humans" is what I'm not asking for though. I ask for this specific category, let's leave it as babies for now. It is so very easy to say "all humans are sinners deserving of hell", but why is it so much harder for people to answer specifically about babies? Do they not count in this "all human" category? If it's all humans, then it's all babies as well, correct?

The question is not hard at all. It all depends on how God's Law is carried out on the Judgment Day.

Human jurisdiction system will exclude immature children from trials. We can't say for sure if something similar exists in the heavenly jurisdiction system as this is not mentioned in the Bible.

So answer is simple, we don't know as it is not mentioned in the Bible. All we know is that everyone is automatically subject to an old covenant. If he grows mature he can choose a newer covenant with consent (i.e., the New Covenant). If he failed to do he will be judged by Law and most likely he won't be able to pass the final judgment.

 

[Dave-W]

And the Scripture says this:

"every tongue will swear allegiance"

Of course they will. As they are being cast into hell.

 

[D. A. Taylor]

Well, the orthodox naysayers just go on and on and on...

But fortunately, so do the Scriptures!

Ezekiel 37:9-14: Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army [Hebrew: force of men]. Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the WHOLE house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’”

Continuing with verse 12: Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.

Ezekiel 39:25-29: Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the WHOLE house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then THEY WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have POURED OUT MY SPIRIT on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD.

I Timothy 2:3-4: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".

Romans 5:18-19: So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One THE MANY will be made righteous.

John 12:47: “….I did NOT come to judge the world, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD.”

Colossians 1:19-20: For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things ON EARTH or things IN HEAVEN.

Romans 11:30-32: For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may SHOW MERCY TO ALL.

Joel 2:28: It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit ON ALL MANKIND; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

II Peter 3:9 (KJV): The Lord is not slack concerning his PROMISE, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

John 12:32: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF.

John 6:32-33: Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to THE WORLD.”

I John 2:1-2: My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of THE WHOLE WORLD.

John 1:6-7: There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light [Jesus Christ], so that ALL might believe through him.

So bloggers, you have a decision to make: will you believe the doctrines of organized religions about Hell? Or will you believe the Scriptures?

 

[shout4Lord]

THIS IS VERY VERY GOOD POSTING.. THANK YOU VERY MUCH
Reply. 1
Jesus is the way, truth and the way JOhn 14:5
Thy word is truth John 17:17
whosoever not accepting the truth is not belongs to God
Reply 2
True eternal life is knowing Jesus.. John 17:3
Any person is not able to find Jesus.. is not belongs to God..
Jesus also said,... I am the door..
Reply 3
for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.Rom 14 : 23
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Reply 4
Hell is not prepared for human (us) if any person is following Satan, they can go to Hell which is prepared for Satan and his followers
Reply 5.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[D. A. Taylor]

Which is why the Lord says this:

"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance." (Isaiah 45:22-23)

But of course, few professing Christians actually believe God's words, choosing rather to pick, choose and assemble scriptures that appear to support their particular doctrinal views. And indeed, this is why so "few are chosen" to be the ruling class of Christ's bride.