Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[Thursday]

Two errors here. The first error is in the statement that God's "gift of grace" is irrevocable. The Bible never describes grace as a gift.

Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

The subject in this verse is about "having been saved", or salvation. Which is through faith. So the "gift of God" is salvation, not grace. And this squares with Rom 6:23 where Paul said that eternal life is a gift of God.

What "is not from yourselves" is salvation. iow, humans cannot save themselves.

 

[Thursday]

The subject in this verse is about "having been saved", or salvation. Which is through faith. So the "gift of God" is salvation, not grace. And this squares with Rom 6:23 where Paul said that eternal life is a gift of God.

What "is not from yourselves" is salvation. iow, humans cannot save themselves.

You are mistaken.

 

[bling]

This is a poor example because the Bible does NOT teach anywhere that one has the power or ability to give up, throw away, release, lose, forfeit the gift of eternal life. So the example isn't relevant.

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul is warning the Galatian Christians to not give up the harvest of eternal life.

Ro. 11: 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Paul is talking to Gentile Christians and virtually saying: Continue and do not quit is the idea.

Matt 13: 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Gal. 5: You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

2 Peter 3: 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

This is about blessings, not getting or staying saved. Again, not a relevant example.

The “blessing” is what we inheritance after our death, which would be eternal life with God. This “blessing” can be “sold”/given away (like Esau did), by Christians giving up on being Christian.

What other “blessing” would the Hebrew writer be talking about which would have some equivalence to with Esau giving up something of great value, which he was entitle to in the future by the fact of his birthright? What birthright comes to the born again Christian to be received later?

That wasn't about getting or staying saved.

You are right to say “the selling of Esau’s birthright wasn’t about staying saved”, but the Hebrew writer is presenting: “Esau’s selling of his birthright” as an analogy to Christians giving up their birthright as Christians. As Christians the one thing we do not yet have from our being born again, but are promised is; eternal life in heaven with God. That would mean the Hebrew writer is teaching we can give up our birthright as Christian, by telling us not to do it.

Blessings and reward certainly can be lost, or given up.

What other: “blessing and rewards” which are always and only found in the Christian’s future being talked about, besides eternal life in heaven?

Yes, ownership in heaven is an inheritance based on performance (Rom 8:17b). A reward, in fact. But just being in heaven (like a renter, but not paying any rent) is the inheritance of being God's children. Rom 8:17a.

An heir does not have to “perform” and we are heirs because of our being born again and not giving up our birthright. Are you suggesting some Christians have mansions in heaven while others sleep on the street?

So are spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11), and eternal life (Rom 6:23). And justification is called a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. And Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

You need to read Ro. 11:29 in context of what Paul has been talking about in at least chapters 9,10 and 11. The irrevocable “gift” was given to all Jews at their physical birth, but that does not mean they could not at some point stop being true descendants of Abraham.

As the OP showed, one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes (Jn 5:24). And Jesus said those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. Again, eternal security.

Those that have eternal life will not perish, but that does not mean the individual Christian cannot give up his eternal life with God in heaven before his death here on earth.

Stop ya here. The issue of being cut off is in a metaphor about being useful. A branch is expected to bear fruit. If it doesn't, it is cut off. Since this is an agricultural metaphor, unuseable branches are tossed into a fire and burned.

Do you really want to defend the position that one can lose salvation by lack of fruit production? That would surely qualify as a works salvation position.

Fruit is produced on branches, so the branches have the privilege and honor of being the instrument by which the vine in total produces fruit. It is the fact that the branch is allowing energy to flow from the vine through it that there is fruit produced. The branch does not produce fruit if the branch does not accept the nutrition from the vine and in fact if the branch does not accept the nutrition from the vine it will not only, not produce fruit, but will wither.

Ro. 11:16… if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Ro. 11: 18…You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

John 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

The root is doing it and the branches just allow it (remaining in the Lord).

However, Rom 11:29 speaks of God's gifts. Where in Romans did Paul describe ANYTHING that Israel had as being a gift of God? He didn't. But he did describe 3 actual gifts that come from God before he wrote 11:29: spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life. All these are gifts of God. And 11:29 is referring to at least these 3 gifts of God.

Ro. 9: 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!

Where those gifts to all of Israel?

Like I keep saying you have to read Ro. 11:29 in context of Ro. 9, 10, and 11.

Ro. 10: 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

That is a blessing for both Jews and Gentiles.

Ro. 10: 21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

One has to assume to think that being "cut off" equals loss of salvation.

John 15: 16 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Those “cut off” will wither and will eventually be burned up. This burning up would refer to hell?

1 Thess 5:19 says to stop it, so yes, believers can. But why bring this up? Are you suggesting that quenching the Holy Spirit equals loss of salvation? Isn't that just an assumption, if that is your point?

Living without an active Spirit is cutting off the nutrition form the vine and will result in no fruit and withering.

Where does the Bible say anything about "throwing the Spirit out"?? It doesn't, so please don't assume that one can do that. In fact, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to all believers and said that He might be with us forever. There is no teaching in the NT that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can be lost.

Without the activation of the Spirit would a Christian start to wither away?

I can't find any Scriptural teaching that the Holy Spirit will leave any believer. And that contradicts what Jesus promised in John 14:16 - “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever

It say "may" and not "will".

The “forever” in this passages does not mean every individual Christian, but it could mean just the 11 or the indwelling portion of the Spirit being available from than on.

The Holy Spirit left King Saul.

Can the Holy Spirit be involved in sinning?

Was the Holy Spirit with Ananias and Sapphira? You might say “they never had the Spirit”, but if they are not Christians this would be an unjust/unfair punishment for a non-Christian?

Please prove from Scripture that walking away results in loss of salvation, and being a child of God, and losing eternal life.

The verses I have used above in this post; show you can wither away, give up, fall away, etc. Gal. 6: 8-9 specifically say “eternal life” is the harvest of the righteous and warns that the harvest can be lost by giving up.


The prodigal son is a prime example of still being a son when he walked away. The father's comment about the son being "dead" and then back to "life" was in reference to fellowship, not relationship.

The prodigal son is a prime example of still being a son when he walked away. The father's comment about the son being "dead" and then back to "life" was in reference to fellowship, not relationship.

If a former Christian will not go when Jesus calls he is no longer on of Christ’s sheep.

What verse or verses teach about becoming an un-sheep?

Those that do not go when Christ calls are not His sheep.

In the sense of security, you bet I do. I take John 10 :28,29 very literally. God holds on to us.

God holds us and keeps anyone else from taking us, but that does not mean God holds us against our own will. If we were just ignorant children “not knowing our right hand from our left”, God would not allow us to wander off. In Luke 15 you have the ignorant ring that is sought after and the sheep that mistakenly gets lost, but you also have the prodigal son who knows the way home and has reason to return home. The prodigal son is allowed to leave (just like God will allow us to leave). The problem is when we come to our senses will we turn to the Father or decide to take the punishment we fully deserve and stay in the pigsty to starve to death?

Is true Godly type Love shown by the father of the bride to the groom in a shotgun wedding?

Wil the groom automatically gain Godly type Love by being wed by force to Godly type Love or does the groom have to humbly accept that Love as pure charity?

No, and irrelevant to the issue.

That is what happens with a sheep intentionally leaving the shepherd.

Paul contrasted the lifestyle of unbelievers with the proper lifestyle of believers, and then concluded that "whether we are awake or sleep, we will be together with Him". If my explanation and analysis of 1 Thess 5:4-10 is in error, please point out where the error is.

This is talking about the second coming of Christ?

Please cite any verse that teaches that one can "give up your eternal life in heaven".

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

No, to "real eternal life" is about blessings and reward for proper behavior.

Jesus basically taught the same idea in John 10:10 - “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

I see a difference between having "life" and having life "abundantly".

You are not addressing what Gal. 6:8-9 says?

Paul teaches: The Christian’s (who remains attached to the vine) harvest in the end is eternal life, but if you “give up you loss the harvest (eternal life).

You point out from the OP all scripture has to be addressed at least with a logical alternative, which I have done for the scripture you posted, so what is the logical alternative interpretation for Gal. 6: 8-9?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"The subject in this verse is about "having been saved", or salvation. Which is through faith. So the "gift of God" is salvation, not grace. And this squares with Rom 6:23 where Paul said that eternal life is a gift of God.

What "is not from yourselves" is salvation. iow, humans cannot save themselves."

You are mistaken.

So, your view is that salvation IS from ourselves?? I believe that you are mistaken.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul is warning the Galatian Christians to not give up the harvest of eternal life.

Ro. 11: 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Paul is talking to Gentile Christians and virtually saying: Continue and do not quit is the idea.

Matt 13: 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Gal. 5: You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

2 Peter 3: 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

The “blessing” is what we inheritance after our death, which would be eternal life with God. This “blessing” can be “sold”/given away (like Esau did), by Christians giving up on being Christian.

What other “blessing” would the Hebrew writer be talking about which would have some equivalence to with Esau giving up something of great value, which he was entitle to in the future by the fact of his birthright? What birthright comes to the born again Christian to be received later?

You are right to say “the selling of Esau’s birthright wasn’t about staying saved”, but the Hebrew writer is presenting: “Esau’s selling of his birthright” as an analogy to Christians giving up their birthright as Christians. As Christians the one thing we do not yet have from our being born again, but are promised is; eternal life in heaven with God. That would mean the Hebrew writer is teaching we can give up our birthright as Christian, by telling us not to do it.

What other: “blessing and rewards” which are always and only found in the Christian’s future being talked about, besides eternal life in heaven?

An heir does not have to “perform” and we are heirs because of our being born again and not giving up our birthright. Are you suggesting some Christians have mansions in heaven while others sleep on the street?

You need to read Ro. 11:29 in context of what Paul has been talking about in at least chapters 9,10 and 11. The irrevocable “gift” was given to all Jews at their physical birth, but that does not mean they could not at some point stop being true descendants of Abraham.

Those that have eternal life will not perish, but that does not mean the individual Christian cannot give up his eternal life with God in heaven before his death here on earth.

Fruit is produced on branches, so the branches have the privilege and honor of being the instrument by which the vine in total produces fruit. It is the fact that the branch is allowing energy to flow from the vine through it that there is fruit produced. The branch does not produce fruit if the branch does not accept the nutrition from the vine and in fact if the branch does not accept the nutrition from the vine it will not only, not produce fruit, but will wither.

Ro. 11:16… if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Ro. 11: 18…You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

John 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

The root is doing it and the branches just allow it (remaining in the Lord).

Ro. 9: 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!

Where those gifts to all of Israel?

Like I keep saying you have to read Ro. 11:29 in context of Ro. 9, 10, and 11.

Ro. 10: 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

That is a blessing for both Jews and Gentiles.

Ro. 10: 21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

John 15: 16 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Those “cut off” will wither and will eventually be burned up. This burning up would refer to hell?

Living without an active Spirit is cutting off the nutrition form the vine and will result in no fruit and withering.

Without the activation of the Spirit would a Christian start to wither away?

It say "may" and not "will".

The “forever” in this passages does not mean every individual Christian, but it could mean just the 11 or the indwelling portion of the Spirit being available from than on.

The Holy Spirit left King Saul.

Can the Holy Spirit be involved in sinning?

Was the Holy Spirit with Ananias and Sapphira? You might say “they never had the Spirit”, but if they are not Christians this would be an unjust/unfair punishment for a non-Christian?

The verses I have used above in this post; show you can wither away, give up, fall away, etc. Gal. 6: 8-9 specifically say “eternal life” is the harvest of the righteous and warns that the harvest can be lost by giving up.

The prodigal son is a prime example of still being a son when he walked away. The father's comment about the son being "dead" and then back to "life" was in reference to fellowship, not relationship.

If a former Christian will not go when Jesus calls he is no longer on of Christ’s sheep.

Those that do not go when Christ calls are not His sheep.

God holds us and keeps anyone else from taking us, but that does not mean God holds us against our own will. If we were just ignorant children “not knowing our right hand from our left”, God would not allow us to wander off. In Luke 15 you have the ignorant ring that is sought after and the sheep that mistakenly gets lost, but you also have the prodigal son who knows the way home and has reason to return home. The prodigal son is allowed to leave (just like God will allow us to leave). The problem is when we come to our senses will we turn to the Father or decide to take the punishment we fully deserve and stay in the pigsty to starve to death?

Is true Godly type Love shown by the father of the bride to the groom in a shotgun wedding?

Wil the groom automatically gain Godly type Love by being wed by force to Godly type Love or does the groom have to humbly accept that Love as pure charity?

That is what happens with a sheep intentionally leaving the shepherd.

This is talking about the second coming of Christ?

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

You are not addressing what Gal. 6:8-9 says?

Paul teaches: The Christian’s (who remains attached to the vine) harvest in the end is eternal life, but if you “give up you loss the harvest (eternal life).

You point out from the OP all scripture has to be addressed at least with a logical alternative, which I have done for the scripture you posted, so what is the logical alternative interpretation for Gal. 6: 8-9?

There is no way to respond to such a big post. But, if any of these verses actually teach that one can lose their salvation, please explain what the passages in the OP are teaching then.

 

[StanJ]

Meaning that this is NOT a commonly-used abbreviation?

No indeed it is not but inevitably whenever this issue is discussed, it seems to always come up. The Bible doesn't teach loss of Salvation, but what the Bible does teach is apostasy, which is walking away from one's salvation. Losing it is out of our control and as salvation is something that God is in control of we can't possibly lose it, but we can and many do indeed walk away from it. The Bible talks about the great Falling Away before Jesus returns. Many many Christians over the years have walked away from their faith. The New Testament is replete with examples of those who walked away from the faith. Hebrews 6:4-6 is the standard for those who do. We are admonished in the New Testament to endure, run the race, fight the good fight. That is not something that needs to be admonished nor instructed if we are secure in attaining ultimate salvation. As long as we stay in the pen of the Good Shepherd we have security but if we choose to walk away even though the Bible tells us that he is faithful to come after us there is no security against the law of sowing and reaping.

 

[Born Again2004]

Though the debate between OSAS and LOS continues, the Bible is clear about which kind of security the believer has in Christ. And it isn't both kinds.

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Therefore, those who believe in LOS need to address each of these 6 points and explain how the verses do not teach eternal security, if they don't.

The Bible says: All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

So, if these verses aren't profitable for teaching, then what are they profitable for?

And, if they ARE profitable for teaching, then what are they teaching, if not OSAS?

A simple question about LOS ?
If, being a Christian means God /Jesus resides in you and God and Jesus are telling the truth in the below verses:
Deuteronomy 31:8 The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged."
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
Then, how can LOS be true and OSAS not true?

 

[Born Again2004]

No indeed it is not but inevitably whenever this issue is discussed, it seems to always come up. The Bible doesn't teach loss of Salvation, but what the Bible does teach is apostasy, which is walking away from one's salvation. Losing it is out of our control and as salvation is something that God is in control of we can't possibly lose it, but we can and many do indeed walk away from it. The Bible talks about the great Falling Away before Jesus returns. Many many Christians over the years have walked away from their faith. The New Testament is replete with examples of those who walked away from the faith. Hebrews 6:4-6 is the standard for those who do. We are admonished in the New Testament to endure, run the race, fight the good fight. That is not something that needs to be admonished nor instructed if we are secure in attaining ultimate salvation. As long as we stay in the pen of the Good Shepherd we have security but if we choose to walk away even though the Bible tells us that he is faithful to come after us there is no security against the law of sowing and reaping.

High Stan,
These issues you raised did cause me much concern once but, here is what I come to know as truth:

• The Bible doesn't teach loss of Salvation, but what the Bible does teach is apostasy: True but Apostasy means all out rejection of Jesus's work and God's free grace. I see nothing in the Bible, except the opposite... that a true born again Christian, with God in you and him saying he would never leave you and Jesus says he would never lose you...can fall into Apostasy. Apostasy would be by a Christian in name only and one who ultimately was never Born Again in the first place. Obviously you are a true Christian, could you fall away to Apostasy?
• The New Testament is replete with examples of those who walked away from the faith. Hebrews 6:4-6 is the standard for those who do. There is no way that a true Christian can walk away, again, could you? The writer of Hebrews message in 6:4-6 was to believers about non-believers. He also said, in fact, it is impossible because once a Christian, there is no way to fall away and be brought back to redemption because Jesus only died once! There is no such thing as losing your salvation, being brought into salvation....losing your salvation over and over again....Jesus died once for all!

 

[StanJ]

High Stan,
These issues you raised did cause me much concern once but, here is what I come to know as truth:

• The Bible doesn't teach loss of Salvation, but what the Bible does teach is apostasy: True but Apostasy means all out rejection of Jesus's work and God's free grace. I see nothing in the Bible, except the opposite... that a true born again Christian, with God in you and him saying he would never leave you and Jesus says he would never lose you...can fall into Apostasy. Apostasy would be by a Christian in name only and one who ultimately was never Born Again in the first place. Obviously you are a true Christian, could you fall away to Apostasy?

Well that is not the proper definition of apostasy.....apostasy means walking away from the faith of your own free will and volition.
1 Timothy 6:20-21 and 2 Timothy 2:17-19 are just a couple of examples of this reality and there is no room for equivocation in these two examples that Paul gives to Timothy.

• The New Testament is replete with examples of those who walked away from the faith. Hebrews 6:4-6 is the standard for those who do. There is no way that a true Christian can walk away, again, could you? The writer of Hebrews message in 6:4-6 was to believers about non-believers. He also said, in fact, it is impossible because once a Christian, there is no way to fall away and be brought back to redemption because Jesus only died once! There is no such thing as losing your salvation, being brought into salvation....losing your salvation over and over again....Jesus died once for all!

I'm afraid you're reading your dogma into the scripture and that is called eisegesis. Properly exegeted, the scripture refers to people who actually did believe, tasted of everything that is good in God and then walked away. Why would Luke warn about unbelievers in this fashion? There is no need to warn Believers about what unbelievers do. Those two verses clearly demonstrate that the people had a relationship with God Jesus and the Holy Spirit and decided to walk away. Hebrews 10:38-39 warn us about the same, those that shrink back into apostasy. If it wasn't something that was real and a detriment to Salvation then the writer would not warn us about doing it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No indeed it is not but inevitably whenever this issue is discussed, it seems to always come up. The Bible doesn't teach loss of Salvation, but what the Bible does teach is apostasy, which is walking away from one's salvation.

Apostasy is walking away from the faith, not salvation.

From http://www.dictionary.com/browse/apostasy

"a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc."

Losing it is out of our control and as salvation is something that God is in control of we can't possibly lose it, but we can and many do indeed walk away from it.

To say one can walk away from their salvation sounds a lot like saying losing salvation, or no longer being saved.

The Bible talks about the great Falling Away before Jesus returns. Many many Christians over the years have walked away from their faith. The New Testament is replete with examples of those who walked away from the faith. Hebrews 6:4-6 is the standard for those who do. We are admonished in the New Testament to endure, run the race, fight the good fight. That is not something that needs to be admonished nor instructed if we are secure in attaining ultimate salvation. As long as we stay in the pen of the Good Shepherd we have security but if we choose to walk away even though the Bible tells us that he is faithful to come after us there is no security against the law of sowing and reaping.

The law of "sowing and reaping" cannot be in reference to salvation, or salvation would be on the basis of works, which is what sowing and reaping is about.

The law of sowing and reaping relates to rewards or loss of rewards.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A simple question about LOS ?
If, being a Christian means God /Jesus resides in you and God and Jesus are telling the truth in the below verses:
Deuteronomy 31:8 The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged."
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
Then, how can LOS be true and OSAS not true?

Exactly, which is the point of the OP.

 

[Born Again2004]

Well that is not the proper definition of apostasy.....apostasy means walking away from the faith of your own free will and volition.
1 Timothy 6:20-21 and 2 Timothy 2:17-19 are just a couple of examples of this reality and there is no room for equivocation in these two examples that Paul gives to Timothy.

I'm afraid you're reading your dogma into the scripture and that is called eisegesis. Properly exegeted, the scripture refers to people who actually did believe, tasted of everything that is good in God and then walked away. Why would Luke warn about unbelievers in this fashion? There is no need to warn Believers about what unbelievers do. Those two verses clearly demonstrate that the people had a relationship with God Jesus and the Holy Spirit and decided to walk away. Hebrews 10:38-39 warn us about the same, those that shrink back into apostasy. If it wasn't something that was real and a detriment to Salvation then the writer would not warn us about doing it.

We will just have to agree to disagree....you can "fall away"...I can't!

 

[ewq1938]

What words communicate the idea that salvation can be lost, because I'm not seeing any such wording in this passage.

But thanks for responding to the OP. Since your view is LOS, what do you suppose the verses in the OP are teaching, then?

That if you stay faithful you will be saved. If you don't, then you won't be saved which is what other passages show.

 

[ewq1938]

Would that it were as simple as that. The problem is that there IS "once saved, always saved" in the Bible.

obviously not since you didn't even bother to confront the scriptures I posted which prove OSAS is false.

 

[ewq1938]

The subject in this verse is about "having been saved", or salvation. Which is through faith. So the "gift of God" is salvation, not grace. And this squares with Rom 6:23 where Paul said that eternal life is a gift of God.

Exactly.

 

[StanJ]

Apostasy is walking away from the faith, not salvation.
From http://www.dictionary.com/browse/apostasy
"a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc."
To say one can walk away from their salvation sounds a lot like saying losing salvation, or no longer being saved.

There is no splitting hairs here, Faith only exists if one is saved, otherwise they have no faith. Eph 2:8
Let's try to stay away from equivocation shall we.

The law of "sowing and reaping" cannot be in reference to salvation, or salvation would be on the basis of works, which is what sowing and reaping is about. The law of sowing and reaping relates to rewards or loss of rewards.

I fail to see any logic or exegesis in arriving at your denial here, but in any event who exactly do you think Paul is talking about in Galatians 6:7?

 

[StanJ]

We will just have to agree to disagree....you can "fall away"...I can't!

Yes I can but the probability of me doing so is very low as apparently it would be for you but the point is that people can fall away and do. I'm thankful for all people that are bound and determined to follow Jesus regardless of the experiences they go through in life but that does not mean that the warning that Luke issued in Hebrews 6 and 10 is irrelevant. In fact it is very relevant to that very issue.

 

[samir]

This issue isn't "clear" for the very reason that there is strong Scriptural support for both views.

Actually there is no scriptural support for OSAS. All of the verses they quote require a heavy dose of interpretation and those who use them aren't putting the bible first - they are reading the bible to conform it to a man-made tradition they chose to believe first. Do you think God would give us a book that strongly supported contradictory views about something so important as salvation? Is God the author of confusion? If you look at the verses opposed to OSAS you'll see they are all very clear and need no interpretation.

 

[samir]

OSAS is a doctrine of demons that Satan uses to turn people away from Christ to the path of perdition. The only reason it is popular is because it teaches an extremely easy path to salvation - just believe once and you're saved forever. No need to turn from sin, live for God, obey the commandments, love your neighbor, repent, become a disciple of Christ, or do good to others because heaven is guaranteed for those who believe in OSAS. Could Satan have made it any easier? We shouldn't be surprised it's popular now. The Bible warns us "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth (2 Timothy 4:3-4, NKJV)"