Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[FreeGrace2]

Though the debate between OSAS and LOS continues, the Bible is clear about which kind of security the believer has in Christ. And it isn't both kinds.

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Therefore, those who believe in LOS need to address each of these 6 points and explain how the verses do not teach eternal security, if they don't.

The Bible says: All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

So, if these verses aren't profitable for teaching, then what are they profitable for?

And, if they ARE profitable for teaching, then what are they teaching, if not OSAS?

 

[ZacharyB]

What caught my eye first was the John 10:28 in your 3rd category.
In the past, you have had the meaning of this explained to you,
but you have refused to accept it.

John 10:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

For example ...
Not everyone who thinks they are known by Jesus ... are known by Jesus!
Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness!’
There is quite a nice long list in the NT about what is involved in doing God's will.
W. E. Vine says this "knew" means "approved of".
Jesus actually "knows" (has a relationship with) those He approves of,
which is NOT every born-again believer.

 

[Albion]

I hate to ask it, but what is "LOS?" Left outside? Lost one's salvation?

 

[ZacharyB]

I hate to ask it, but what is "LOS?" Left outside? Lost one's salvation?

I hate to answer it, but perhaps it is ... Loss Of Salvation.

 

[Thursday]

Though the debate between OSAS and LOS continues, the Bible is clear about which kind of security the believer has in Christ. And it isn't both kinds.

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Therefore, those who believe in LOS need to address each of these 6 points and explain how the verses do not teach eternal security, if they don't.

The Bible says: All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

So, if these verses aren't profitable for teaching, then what are they profitable for?

And, if they ARE profitable for teaching, then what are they teaching, if not OSAS?

There are dozens of scripture passages which make it clear that our salvation is conditional and can be lost.

We must endure to be saved.

 

[Albion]

Meaning that this is NOT a commonly-used abbreviation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What caught my eye first was the John 10:28 in your 3rd category.
In the past, you have had the meaning of this explained to you,
but you have refused to accept it.

Because the explanation was incorrect.

John 10:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

The problem is that the context for Jesus' sheep begins in v.9, where Jesus said this:
“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." I believe it is clear that Jesus used the metaphor of entering through a door (being Himself) for belief in Him as Savior. So the idea that the only ones who WILL NEVER PERISH is short-sighted by only going back 1 verse for context.

Jesus tells us that eternal life is received on the basis of believing in Him, not "following Him". No one is saved from following. People are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Eph 2:8,9 teaches that.

However, regardless of either of our views on the 3rd point, there are 5 more points that will need to be re-interpreted that shows that they either don't teach eternal security, or that they are profitable for something other than teaching, such as reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness.

Please proceed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I hate to ask it, but what is "LOS?" Left outside? Lost one's salvation?

Loss Of Salvation. Opposite of OSAS, or Once Saved, Always Saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are dozens of scripture passages which make it clear that our salvation is conditional and can be lost.

OK, then please answer what all of the verses in the OP are teaching, if not ES.

Or, if they are profitable for something else, such as reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness.

And, if there are actually dozens of passages that clearly teach conditional security, the verses in the OP should be easy to explain as to what they are profitable for.

We must endure to be saved.

OK. Please at least cite the verse (both of them). And consider the context to see who the verse applies to. Then get back to me.

 

[Albion]

Loss Of Salvation. Opposite of OSAS, or Once Saved, Always Saved.

Thnx.

 

[Thursday]

OK, then please answer what all of the verses in the OP are teaching, if not ES.

Or, if they are profitable for something else, such as reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness.

And, if there are actually dozens of passages that clearly teach conditional security, the verses in the OP should be easy to explain as to what they are profitable for.


OK. Please at least cite the verse (both of them). And consider the context to see who the verse applies to. Then get back to me.

The context is human life. What happens to a person who doesn't endure.

Since you asked:

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

2 Chronicles 15:2 i "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is lured away and enticed by his own desires. Then when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death".
James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".

Deuteronomy 8:11 "Take care that you do not forget the Lord your God, by failing to keep his commandments, his ordinances, and his statutes, which I am commanding you today".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, You do not want to go away also, do you? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you,unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

 

[Greg J.]

This issue isn't "clear" for the very reason that there is strong Scriptural support for both views.

Something to ask yourself: Will God save someone who doesn't want to be saved?

 

[Albion]

This issue isn't "clear" for the very reason that there is strong Scriptural support for both views.

That's a reasonable position to take. I wouldn't agree that the various verses have the same weight or are all being correctly understood by those who cite them in order to justify their views, but what you wrote is reasonable.

Something to ask yourself: Will God save someone who doesn't want to be saved?

This idea/question sounds more persuasive when it's stated than it is in reality.

Yes, God can give something to his creatures that is so wonderful--but not fully appreciated or understood by the creature in this life--that it would never be turned down by anyone who actually knew all there is to know about it.

 

[Greg J.]

Re: ... Will God save someone who doesn't want to be saved?

This idea/question sounds more persuasive when it's stated than it is in reality.

Yes, God can give something to his creatures that is so wonderful--but not fully appreciated or understood by the creature in this life--that it would never be turned down by anyone who actually knew all there is to know about it.

That particular question cannot be genericized like that, when it is the results of an adult's desire to be saved that saves them. Or put another way, entrusting oneself to Jesus Christ is not something that can be done if you don't want to entrust oneself to Jesus Christ.

(Re-Edited to stay on topic)

 

[FreeGrace2]

The context is human life. What happens to a person who doesn't endure.

Please quote every verse that is about those who don't endure, and I'll show you context that proves that enduring isn't about getting or staying saved.

Since you asked:

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

2 Chronicles 15:2 i "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is lured away and enticed by his own desires. Then when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death".
James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".

Deuteronomy 8:11 "Take care that you do not forget the Lord your God, by failing to keep his commandments, his ordinances, and his statutes, which I am commanding you today".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, You do not want to go away also, do you? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you,unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

Just throwing out lots of verses, as if that accounts for some kind of refutation, doesn't refute anything. None of the verses being quoted says anything about loss of salvation.

And none of these verses changes what the verses in the OP say.

How about just answering the questions in the OP: if the verses in the OP are profitable for teaching, just what are they teaching. If they are profitable for something else, then what are they profitable for? Keeping 2 Tim 3:16 in mind.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This issue isn't "clear" for the very reason that there is strong Scriptural support for both views.

OK then. Is your view that the Scriptures contradict themselves?

Second, what are the verses in the OP profitable for?

Something to ask yourself: Will God save someone who doesn't want to be saved?

No. He never forces His gift of eternal life on anyone. But your question is irrelevant to the issue of loss of salvation.

The first, second, third, and fifth points in the OP show that once a person believes:
1. they HAVE eternal life John 5:24
2. eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God Rom 6:23, Rom 11:29
3. those given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH John 10:28

These are irrefutable facts. So even those who might later cease to believe in God are still saved for the very reasons above.

And those who just become rebellious are saved as well, because of the fourth point.

If these verses don't teach eternal security, then what do they teach? Or, in what category, per 2 Tim 3:16 are they profitable for: reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness?

Please explain your answer if you do answer.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Greg J. said: ↑
This issue isn't "clear" for the very reason that there is strong Scriptural support for both views.

That's a reasonable position to take. I wouldn't agree that the various verses have the same weight or are all being correctly understood by those who cite them in order to justify their views, but what you wrote is reasonable.

I don't find it reasonable at all. If the Bible teaches both eternal security AND loss of salvation, then the Bible is conflicted and contradicted. That is not reasonable.

And it should be clear that both views cannot be true.

This idea/question sounds more persuasive when it's stated than it is in reality.

Please clarify.

Yes, God can give something to his creatures that is so wonderful--but not fully appreciated or understood by the creature in this life--that it would never be turned down by anyone who actually knew all there is to know about it.

That isn't the issue. The issue is about those who HAVE received the free gift of eternal life and are saved.

If any of the passages in the OP do not teach eternal security, then what do they teach?

 

[Greg J.]

There are no contradictions in Scripture, however every passage must be understood in light of the whole Bible. If you are quoting some Scriptures and saying they are irrefutable, then you have not studied the supposedly-contradicting passages enough. All the passages must be explained. That is, they are all true, and if you can't see how that is the case for each passage, there is more to learn.

To clarify what I mean, let me use a simpler example: predestination and free will seem to not both be true to human reason, but God, through Scripture, teaches that both are fully true at the same time. Until you can explain how that can be, there is still more to learn.

 

[ZacharyB]

John 10:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

I can quickly add ...
John 17:
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
The NT teaches that this "knowing" refers to a personal relationship of some depth.
For example:
Romans 8:
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
This being led is a continual action, not a one-time deal.
Those being led have a personal relationship with God.

Yes, it's all about a close relationship of some depth.
This will result in a correct "heart attitude" about sin and repentance!

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are no contradictions in Scripture, however every passage must be understood in light of the whole Bible. If you are quoting some Scriptures and saying they are irrefutable, then you have not studied the supposedly-contradicting passages enough.

Or, one HAS studied and found that the supposedly opposing passage doesn't really teach what is being claimed, and therefore the passage IS irrefutable.

All the passages must be explained.

That is the purpose of this thread. I've provided 5 passages that I believe teach eternal security. If they don't teach that, what then do they teach? Or what are they profitable for, if not teaching?

That is, they are all true, and if you can't see how that is the case for each passage, there is more to learn.

I've never been stymied by any of the so-called LOS passages. They all mean something else.

To clarify what I mean, let me use a simpler example: predestination and free will seem to not both be true to human reason, but God, through Scripture, teaches that both are fully true at the same time. Until you can explain how that can be, there is still more to learn.

The error here is to assume that predestination is about getting saved; that is, God chooses who will believe, and therefore, be saved.

But predestination isn't about getting saved. It's about exactly what the Bibles says it's about: For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Rom 8:29

Being predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son has nothing to do with getting saved, but experiential sanctification leading to spiritual maturity.

So, now that I've cleared that up, we see that there is absolutely no conflict whatsoever between predestination and free will.

Now, if predestination did mean that God chooses who will believe, then there WOULD be a huge conflict between predestination and free will. Can't be both, as you've just noted.