Eternal Security, false doctrine or not?

[Neostarwcc]

I'm unsure where I stand on the issue of Eternal Security. I don't know whether to believe it or not so I'd like to ask a bunch of questions on both sides of the coin to hopefully come to a conclusion on this issue.

To those who don't believe in Eternal Security:

What does it take for one to lose their salvation? How exactly isn't Eternal Security Biblical when verses like Ephesians 4:30 and John 10:28 exist? How can we explain these verses if Eternal Security isn't real? How is it possible to unregenerate a believer aren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit forever? In your opinion, what are the requirements to salvation aside from belief in Christ which is the only requirement listed in the entire bible? Anything else you'd like to add that I forgot?

To those who believe in Eternal Security:

How exactly is Eternal Security Biblical? How can we explain the many verses that seem to go against the idea of Eternal Security and the ones that imply that one can lose their salvation by things like grieving the holy spirit, loss of belief in Christ...etc?



That should hopefully cover a lot of my questions and concerns. I will probably be posting more questions as people start replying to the topic.

 

[rockytopva]

I am a lab technician at a large factory. I use to make samples for three Baptist ladies. Knowing these ladies I did not sense any kind of evil or mischief in their characters. They were all happily married and established in their faith. I had no need to question their salvation or their eternal security, the Christianity was deep rooted in their characters.

I know of another Baptist lady who is about my age and never married. I thought to myself that this is the lady for me. But... The more that woman talked... I finally told her, "You know I do not believe can do those things and go to heaven!" Her answer was instant... "Are your trying to threaten my salvation?"

If I can spend time around an individual I can measure the amount of Christ in the character. If the character is deep rooted in the things of God, then I will buy into the eternal security. If there is instability and a desire for the wild life, then no, I do not buy into them as being eternally secure.

 

[South Bound]

How exactly is Eternal Security Biblical?

Since our salvation was not initiated by us, was not bought by us, and is not held by us, how can it be ours to lose?

Those who deny the Biblical teaching that Christ is able to keep us from falling and is competent to keep those the Father has given Him invariably get the doctrine wrong. Literally, every one I've come across who denies this Biblical teaching eventually says, "So, you can sin all you want and still be saved". They think they're being clever, but the truth is, they're just showing that they didn't bother to learn what eternal security is before criticizing it and that they don't understand the Biblical doctrines of regeneration, justification, sanctification, imputation, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So really they're speaking out of ignorance which is why they cite 1 Cor 3:7 which has nothing to do with salvation Romans 11 which is addressing the Jews not born again believers and other similar verses or when they cite persons in the Bible who lived before Christ's atonement and before He sent the Holy Spirit (thus before God provided a way for en to be born again and their sins were merely covered in anticipation of Christ's finished work).

I posted this in another thread...

Rather than ask if man can lose his salvation, you should be asking if Christ is able to lose any the Father has given Him or is unable to keep us from falling.

Those who deny the Biblical teaching of eternal security talk about the Biblical doctrine of eternal security as if it's something we earn after salvation by proving ourselves worthy.

That's not the case at all. We're not saved by our own righteousness, but by Christ's righteousness, and our salvation is not kept by our faithfulness, but by Christ's faithfulness and ability to keep that which the Father has given Him.

If one is born again, then his salvation is secure in Christ's hands.

I would encourage you to think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. That means that it would only take one sin to fall away.

To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you must believe that, if one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, as well. Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We can't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We can't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did under the law!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

But, back to your question, there are a host of verses that support the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

Let's start with the most obvious:

John 6:35-40 says 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

So, here we have three promises:

a) That Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him.

b) That Jesus will not cast out any who come to Him

That precludes both the sinner losing his salvation and Jesus taking his salvation away. So what means is left to lose salvation?

c) That God has already promised they would be raised on the last day.

Does God now break His promises?

And that's only the beginning. There is plenty of evidence for the Biblical doctrine of eternal security after that. For instance...

Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?


Colossians 3:1-4 says that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philippians 1:6 says that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise to finish the good work He began in you, if you can lose your salvation?

1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptible and that promise is not true.

Like Colossians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation". And if we're sons of God, when has God ever disowned a son?

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works? Furthermore, why isn't keeping our salvation a work?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

It's been my experience that where you find a denial of the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security, just scratch the surface and you'll find a belief in works-righteousness.

Again, I ask, is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

 

[Greg J.]

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? ’Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23, 1984 NIV)

The phrase "does the will of my Father in heaven" is a reference to the signs that follow someone who genuinely believes. The passage tells us that a person can think he is saved when he is not.

The issue is not just about being saved, it is also about knowing or believing we are saved. Distinguishing between them is important for analyzing this topic.

I believe that regardless of what God has done for you, if you persist in rejecting God, it is impossible that he would force you into heaven.

HOWEVER, why would someone want to know where the exact line is between being saved and not saved? Is it so they can have as much worldly behavior as possible while still being saved. Such a person is probably not saved. The person who has yielded to God's Lordship in every area of their life in their heart is probably saved.

 

[MrMoe]

I'm undecided on eternal security. Both sides make good points. So I'd like to ask a couple of questions.


For those who believe in eternal security how do you explain Matthew 13:18-23 ?


For those who don't believe in eternal security how do you explain 1 Corinthians 5:5 ?

 

[South Bound]

I'm undecided on eternal security. Both sides make good points. So I'd like to ask a couple of questions.


For those who believe in eternal security how do you explain Matthew 13:18-23 ?

What does that passage have to do with the Biblical doctrine of eternal security?

 

[com7fy8]

How is it possible to unregenerate a believer aren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit forever?

Also >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, I would say if we have been perfected in God's love, then His love has cured our nature so we do not have the nature to turn against Him and leave Him. And so, this is our Biblical basis for "boldness in the day of judgment".

But there are eternal security people who seem to leave out the requirement that we become cured in God's love. And they seem to leave out how we must have our Father's correction >

Hebrews 12:4-11.

And if we do not have this correction >

"you are illegitimate and not sons", we have in this scripture.

In your opinion, what are the requirements to salvation aside from belief in Christ which is the only requirement listed in the entire bible? Anything else you'd like to add that I forgot?

Ephesians 1:12 says "we who first trusted in Christ". So, yes we need to trust in Jesus. And in trusting Him we receive our Father's correction and we become cured in our natures, so that "as He is, so are we in this world."

And we are trusting Him to do this with us. We are not depending on ourselves and our own human free wills. So, this can not fail, since this has to do with trusting Jesus for all He guarantees He will do.

 

[CodyFaith]

I'm undecided on eternal security. Both sides make good points. So I'd like to ask a couple of questions.


For those who believe in eternal security how do you explain Matthew 13:18-23 ?


For those who don't believe in eternal security how do you explain 1 Corinthians 5:5 ?

Ah Moe, my friend, hey. : )

The parable of the sower is actually a good parable to show the doctrine of eternal security, so I'm glad you chose it.

The parable talks about different people who have heard the word ("received it").
Notice where it talks about stony ground. It says with joy he receives it, but notice that it says he had no root in himself, and because he had no root in himself he did not last aka he was not saved. He turned away from seeking salvation from Christ and seeking his kingdom.
The one who received it among the thorns started following after Christ, but never came to actually believe in him because he desired to follow after worldly things.
But he that received it on the good ground, aka believed in Jesus, is saved, and brought forth fruit.

The one who received it on good ground is also the one who was "rooted" whereas the stony one was not.
So you see, the term rooted tells of permanence. Someone who is rooted in Christ, some who believed, is founded upon the rock. Someone who is rooted endures whereas the one on stony ground did not.

It works in my mind, but it's hard to type it out. What part of it bothers you exactly? I'd be able to explain it better if I knew which part is tripping you up, or how you're seeing it.

 

[MrMoe]

What does that passage have to do with the Biblical doctrine of eternal security?

Those who don't believe in eternal security believe that passage proves you can lose your salvation.

 

[MrMoe]

Ah Moe, my friend, hey. : )

The parable of the sower is actually a good parable to show the doctrine of eternal security, so I'm glad you chose it.

The parable talks about different people who have heard the word ("received it").
Notice where it talks about stony ground. It says with joy he receives it, but notice that it says he had no root in himself, and because he had no root in himself he did not last aka he was not saved. He turned away from seeking salvation from Christ and seeking his kingdom.
The one who received it among the thorns started following after Christ, but never came to actually believe in him because he desired to follow after worldly things.
But he that received it on the good ground, aka believed in Jesus, is saved, and brought forth fruit.

The one who received it on good ground is also the one who was "rooted" whereas the stony one was not.
So you see, the term rooted tells of permanence. Someone who is rooted in Christ, some who believed, is founded upon the rock. Someone who is rooted endures whereas the one on stony ground did not.

It works in my mind, but it's hard to type it out. What part of it bothers you exactly? I'd be able to explain it better if I knew which part is tripping you up, or how you're seeing it.

Thanks. Some people say this parable proves you can lose your salvation but other verses suggest eternal security, so I'm just trying to find how to reconcile this parable with those verses.

 

[Apex]

To those who believe in Eternal Security:

How exactly is Eternal Security Biblical? How can we explain the many verses that seem to go against the idea of Eternal Security and the ones that imply that one can lose their salvation by things like grieving the holy spirit, loss of belief in Christ...etc?

When Nicodemus questioned Jesus about what it meant to be born again, he said something quite interesting. Nicodemus' response was, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (John 3:4) Jesus goes on to further elaborate on what he meant, but Nicodemus' question still highlights something true. Once you are born, there is no reversing or repeating it. This event is permanent and can only happen one time. Perhaps this is the reason why Jesus choose the analogy of birth to explain the spiritual process of entering the kingdom of God.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Since our salvation was not initiated by us, was not bought by us, and is not held by us, how can it be ours to lose?

Those who deny the Biblical teaching that Christ is able to keep us from falling and is competent to keep those the Father has given Him invariably get the doctrine wrong. Literally, every one I've come across who denies this Biblical teaching eventually says, "So, you can sin all you want and still be saved". They think they're being clever, but the truth is, they're just showing that they didn't bother to learn what eternal security is before criticizing it and that they don't understand the Biblical doctrines of regeneration, justification, sanctification, imputation, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So really they're speaking out of ignorance which is why they cite 1 Cor 3:7 which has nothing to do with salvation Romans 11 which is addressing the Jews not born again believers and other similar verses or when they cite persons in the Bible who lived before Christ's atonement and before He sent the Holy Spirit (thus before God provided a way for en to be born again and their sins were merely covered in anticipation of Christ's finished work).

I posted this in another thread...

Rather than ask if man can lose his salvation, you should be asking if Christ is able to lose any the Father has given Him or is unable to keep us from falling.

Those who deny the Biblical teaching of eternal security talk about the Biblical doctrine of eternal security as if it's something we earn after salvation by proving ourselves worthy.

That's not the case at all. We're not saved by our own righteousness, but by Christ's righteousness, and our salvation is not kept by our faithfulness, but by Christ's faithfulness and ability to keep that which the Father has given Him.

If one is born again, then his salvation is secure in Christ's hands.

I would encourage you to think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. That means that it would only take one sin to fall away.

To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you must believe that, if one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, as well. Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We can't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We can't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did under the law!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

But, back to your question, there are a host of verses that support the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

Let's start with the most obvious:

John 6:35-40 says 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

So, here we have three promises:

a) That Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him.

b) That Jesus will not cast out any who come to Him

That precludes both the sinner losing his salvation and Jesus taking his salvation away. So what means is left to lose salvation?

c) That God has already promised they would be raised on the last day.

Does God now break His promises?

And that's only the beginning. There is plenty of evidence for the Biblical doctrine of eternal security after that. For instance...

Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?


Colossians 3:1-4 says that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philippians 1:6 says that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise to finish the good work He began in you, if you can lose your salvation?

1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptible and that promise is not true.

Like Colossians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation". And if we're sons of God, when has God ever disowned a son?

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works? Furthermore, why isn't keeping our salvation a work?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

It's been my experience that where you find a denial of the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security, just scratch the surface and you'll find a belief in works-righteousness.

Again, I ask, is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

Thank you that post helped explain a lot of my questions. What you say makes sense and eternal security can be explained. I still don't know whether or not I believe in it, I'll have to study more and see what people on the opposite side have to say.

Ah Moe, my friend, hey. : )

The parable of the sower is actually a good parable to show the doctrine of eternal security, so I'm glad you chose it.

The parable talks about different people who have heard the word ("received it").
Notice where it talks about stony ground. It says with joy he receives it, but notice that it says he had no root in himself, and because he had no root in himself he did not last aka he was not saved. He turned away from seeking salvation from Christ and seeking his kingdom.
The one who received it among the thorns started following after Christ, but never came to actually believe in him because he desired to follow after worldly things.
But he that received it on the good ground, aka believed in Jesus, is saved, and brought forth fruit.

The one who received it on good ground is also the one who was "rooted" whereas the stony one was not.
So you see, the term rooted tells of permanence. Someone who is rooted in Christ, some who believed, is founded upon the rock. Someone who is rooted endures whereas the one on stony ground did not.

It works in my mind, but it's hard to type it out. What part of it bothers you exactly? I'd be able to explain it better if I knew which part is tripping you up, or how you're seeing it.

I never thought of the Parable of the sower that way, interesting.

 

[South Bound]

Those who don't believe in eternal security believe that passage proves you can lose your salvation.

If you don't know then just say you don't know.

 

[bling]

OSAS not

The context is human life. What happens to a person who doesn't endure.

Since you asked:

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".


John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".


1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".


2 Chronicles 15:2 i "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".


James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is lured away and enticed by his own desires. Then when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death".

James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".


Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."


1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".


Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".


Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".


1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".


1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".


Deuteronomy 8:11 "Take care that you do not forget the Lord your God, by failing to keep his commandments, his ordinances, and his statutes, which I am commanding you today".


John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, You do not want to go away also, do you? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".


2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".


2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."


Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.


Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.


Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."


John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you,unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".


I can quickly add ...

John 17:

3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,

and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

The NT teaches that this "knowing" refers to a personal relationship of some depth.

For example:

Romans 8:

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die;

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

This being led is a continual action, not a one-time deal.

Those being led have a personal relationship with God.


Yes, it's all about a close relationship of some depth.

This will result in a correct "heart attitude" about sin and repentance!

///


I agree we need to reconcile logical alternative explanations for apparent conflicting verses, but that can take lots of words and explaining since it always has to do with the context in which the verse is pulled from and the alternative understanding of the context.

After reading this again, I found where you repeated these questions before and got some excellent answers (better than I am giving you.




First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

Starting with the verses you gave concerning “gift”.

Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone stile it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.


3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Justification is a gift.

6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We now own eternal life in heaven, but we are not in heaven yet, so it is like a birthright to go to heaven is what we own.


11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


This takes some really heavy study of the context found in Ro. chps. 9, 10 and 11, but briefly:

Paul in Ro. 11:25… Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Paul is talking about the Israelites, that were under the promise given Abraham, but just got through saying: Ro. 11:4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Paul is seems to be saying that all Jews “they are enemies” (yet the elect in that they are Jews by birth), have been given the gift of being God’s select people, but in verse 5 Paul talks about only a remnant being saved?

Paul has also been talking about some that were branches being cut off (this would mean OSAS will not work).

This is out of Ro. 11:


13 I am talking to you Gentiles…. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul is not talking to nonbelieving Gentile, since they are not being addressed and would not be reading his letter, but this section is to gentile Christians, whom Paul warns can be “cut off” and said “…provided that you continue in his kindness”.



Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

Can Christians quench the Holy Spirit?

If you through the Spirit out do you also throughout your seal of eternal life?


And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).


1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


OK, if the Spirit is no longer with you, you can know you will not receive redemption at the time of Judgement?


Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).


5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This “death” here seems to be physical death since Jesus goes on to say: 28… for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.

People that have done good will rise to life, but this is the judgment day so there is not changing after (lose of salvation) the person is dead.


10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I fully agree “no one” can take you from God and God will not forsake you, but that does not mean God will not allow you to walk away; God is not a kidnapper nor will God hold you against your own will.

If a former Christian will not go when Jesus calls he is no longer on of Christ’s sheep.

Do you believe God would hold a person against their will?

If God changes the will of the person is that new will really their will or is it God’s will in them?

The question is: can a sheep of the Shepherd intentionally go off (like the prodigal son did) and not be forced to return to the flock (like in the prodigal son story)?


Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.


4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.


Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.


This is all about existing Christian, but it does not say you cannot turn to the darkness and in fact Paul warns them and tells them what the “need” to do; “we need to be sober” if it wan not possible for them to get drunk Paul should have said “you are sober”.


Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.


The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

“How people are saved” is not addressing the fact after you are saved you can give up your eternal life in heaven.


Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

 

[Te're'sa]

never mind.

 

[sculleywr]

I'm unsure where I stand on the issue of Eternal Security. I don't know whether to believe it or not so I'd like to ask a bunch of questions on both sides of the coin to hopefully come to a conclusion on this issue.

To those who don't believe in Eternal Security:

What does it take for one to lose their salvation? How exactly isn't Eternal Security Biblical when verses like Ephesians 4:30 and John 10:28 exist? How can we explain these verses if Eternal Security isn't real? How is it possible to unregenerate a believer aren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit forever? In your opinion, what are the requirements to salvation aside from belief in Christ which is the only requirement listed in the entire bible? Anything else you'd like to add that I forgot?

To those who believe in Eternal Security:

How exactly is Eternal Security Biblical? How can we explain the many verses that seem to go against the idea of Eternal Security and the ones that imply that one can lose their salvation by things like grieving the holy spirit, loss of belief in Christ...etc?



That should hopefully cover a lot of my questions and concerns. I will probably be posting more questions as people start replying to the topic.

A person doesn't "lose" their salvation any more than a person who is married "loses" the marriage. A divorce happens because of willful decision to give up on the relationship, not simply because of making a certain number of mistakes.

Eternal Security's rejection in the Orthodox isn't simply a biblical issue, because a person can defend any number of beliefs using Scripture. It is about what is the first belief of the Church, not how logically a person can defend a belief. I can use logic to defend many beliefs with Scripture.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm unsure where I stand on the issue of Eternal Security. I don't know whether to believe it or not so I'd like to ask a bunch of questions on both sides of the coin to hopefully come to a conclusion on this issue.

To those who don't believe in Eternal Security:

What does it take for one to lose their salvation? How exactly isn't Eternal Security Biblical when verses like Ephesians 4:30 and John 10:28 exist? How can we explain these verses if Eternal Security isn't real? How is it possible to unregenerate a believer aren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit forever? In your opinion, what are the requirements to salvation aside from belief in Christ which is the only requirement listed in the entire bible? Anything else you'd like to add that I forgot?

To those who believe in Eternal Security:

How exactly is Eternal Security Biblical? How can we explain the many verses that seem to go against the idea of Eternal Security and the ones that imply that one can lose their salvation by things like grieving the holy spirit, loss of belief in Christ...etc?



That should hopefully cover a lot of my questions and concerns. I will probably be posting more questions as people start replying to the topic.

I believe that as the bible says that God is able to keep us from falling, but I do not agree with the Nap During Sermon focus of the Eternal Security doctrine.
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As we are born again and live a new life, I do not believe that the life is without spiritual dangers, and I also do trust that God is able to keep us from falling .. but we really need to keep trusting him, not just trust him once then pay offerings for the rest of our lives thinking that's enough. It's just a bad focus, people need to make their calling and election sure.
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Eternal Security is a knee jerk theology to the hellfire and brimstone knee jerk theology. I think we could go back to something more balanced and that would be healthy for us as Christ's body.

 

[MrMoe]

If you don't know then just say you don't know.

I said I was undecided, precisely because I don't know. I was hoping some like you who does believe in eternal security did know. That's why I asked the question.

 

[South Bound]

A person doesn't "lose" their salvation any more than a person who is married "loses" the marriage. A divorce happens because of willful decision to give up on the relationship, not simply because of making a certain number of mistakes.

Marriage is not analogous to being born again because when one is born again, they receive a new nature. They go from spiritually dead to spiritually alive and they go from an old nature that serves sin to a new nature that serves God.

It isn't that they don't have the free will to reject Christ, it's that the new nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit changes their desires.

It's why the Bible doesn't say "They were of us until they decided to quit", but 1 John 2:19 says "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The Bible tell us that one of the defining characteristics of salvation is sanctification. It also tells us that sanctification is a process that lasts until we die and are made like Christ. Where is the evidence of sanctification in one who abandons Christ?

 

[sculleywr]

Marriage is not analogous to being born again because when one is born again, they receive a new nature. They go from spiritually dead to spiritually alive and they go from an old nature that serves sin to a new nature that serves God.

It isn't that they don't have the free will to reject Christ, it's that the new nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit changes their desires.

It's why the Bible doesn't say "They were of us until they decided to quit", but 1 John 2:19 says "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The Bible tell us that one of the defining characteristics of salvation is sanctification. It also tells us that sanctification is a process that lasts until we die and are made like Christ. Where is the evidence of sanctification in one who abandons Christ?

And in Marriage, a new nature is found, for the two become one.

The fact is, however, that sanctification is part of salvation, and not a result thereof. This is why there are so many statements that are anachronistic to the idea of Eternal Security. Think of this, in the land of Eternal Security, you have to use a heaping serving of rationalizations to deal with James, and with Christ's answers to the question "how do I obtain eternal life?"

Eternal Security turns faith into nothing more than a mere set of magic words.

In my Church, faith is like love, meaning that you don't have faith without showing it. Faith is not a passive thing, but an active thing, hence the reason for its etymological construction in the Greek. The word "Pistis" has the -is ending, which makes it an active gerund, not a passive noun.

Since Sanctification IS salvation in Scripture, we cannot have any concept of eternal security.

Further, it means there is no such thing as free will, because one loses free will at conversion, even if it is at 5 years old, when you really have no clue what you're committing to. Even if you begin to hate God after conversion, God will force you to live with Him. Now you'll answer that such a person was never really saved, but that is the very definition of loss of free will.