Eternal Punishment

[Armistead]

yeah...way to go armistead with your bearing false witness...lay that false witness on the line ..figures that poster would be here to congratulate you for doing so....birds of a feather, I suppose..

READERS....THIS is what was said before..Armistead READ it (evidenced by his responding to it) and KNOWS what I have already stated and has chosen to bear false witness and apparently someone is patting him on the back for doing so....says a lot about the dishonesty presented in this discussion...

Huh....seems to me that *I* said that Jesus IS the ONLY way and that WE dont really know just HOW God deals with folks who never have the opportunity to hear the gospel....I wonder how Armistead managed to pervert the entire statement that *I* made there....
When ya cant win the battle, use deception.

As you READERs probably have already understood this question of what God does in cases where people never get the chance to hear the gospel is a very common question and a very good one. The fact is that we can only hypothesize in the matter....and the last time I offered my own thoughts the URs here were fairly childish about it so I wont get into it again.
*I* trust God. I know He is just and righteous. HOW He has chosen to deal with these folks who never hear is HIS concern. They can ONLY come thru Christ as Christ is the ONLY way to the Father....whether they all go to hell or whether God has some means to get to them before death is anyones guess...but if anyone claims Ive said that there is ANY other way they are flat out lying....I NEVER have said any such thing...and it says a lot about folks who have to claim that I did...just to keep from admitting they were wrong about 1 corinthians 15 NOT being about UR and Acts 15 and the meaning of fornication


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You just did it again, no false witness there. You lay out two plans..Christ is the only way...BUT...how God deals with others is "anyones guess."
You've come full circle, now another gospel message we can call "anyones guess." That sure is an important gospel, since according to you the mass of humanity will be saved or doomed by "anyones guess."

How many more gospel must you come up with to keep the false doctrine of torture? It's getting hard to keep count.

 

[Armistead]

it was ignored by you and Armistead the very second you had to accuse of us saying there was some Other way to the Father simply because we believe that God CAN get the truth to someone who has never had a HUMAN bring it to them.
*IF* you had taken the verse into account then you would have KNOWN that there ARE other ways than HUMAN teachers that WE could have been talking about


More meaningless questions meant to distract from the fact that we MUST BELIEVE in these lifetimes to be saved....


Christ is the ONLY way to the Father...
Belief IN Him and obedience is the ONLY way we will make it...

If God could get the truth to someone without humans, he wouldn't have called humans to that mission?

This is beyond silly. Study any tribe, people, such as the Indians through time and they all followed their beliefs until man told them about Christ.
Has God at times used other sources...maybe a few, but always for a specific purpose. Any basic study on past history shows no evidence at all that those never hearing about Christ had other revelations other than humans to know Christ. After all, christians were given the great mission to bring people to Christ after Christ left. In fairness, if God is going to use "other methods" then in fairness he should have assured ALL people that never heard of Christ got the other message and not just a few. Why would God use other methods to save a few, when he could save the all? Is it not his will that all men be saved? If angels appear with the message or God speaking directly to people, there is no faith involved. Who wouldn't accept a message directly from God?

If you can bring supporting evidence that entire tribes or people were lead to Christ without any knowledge given to them by men who new Christ, I would love to see it......good luck. I certainly believe God can use any possible action to those lost that have heard the message of Christ and not accepted him to bring them around.

 

[Armistead]

No, there is a small body of passages you folks rip out of context and then mangle beyond recognition to create a doctrine that is completely contradictory to the whole...

No, we connect biblical truth that was ruined by men that brought in the pagan teaching of torture. Men like Justin, ect. If you would actually take the time to see how and when torture came about, you would see it as nothing but a tool of man....fear to control the masses as we have clearly proven in this thread. The actual ones that created the ET doctrine stated such.

The complete message of the bible is UR. We actually believe the verses.
It's sad you can't accept verses at face value when they are stated as such. Your whole concept contradicts itself over and over as we have proven...you ignore verses, create many gospel messages and say we bear false witness.

Our goal is not to force anyone to accept UR. We just know the mass of Christians have believed what they have been told. They don't know that the mass of the early church was UR. They don't know that eternal torture was a pagan concept that existed long before Christ was born.
They don't know that Christians, basically the Romans twisted the scriptures to allow ET to control man.

It's just sad that a pagan doctrine became the saving message and not Christ, because the majority of man gets "saved" because he doesn't want to be tortured forever...but who can blame people...fear works.

 

[HuntingMan]

You just did it again, no false witness there. You lay out two plans..Christ is the only way...BUT...how God deals with others is "anyones guess."

Id suggest reading the post again and again until you get it

You've come full circle, now another gospel message we can call "anyones guess." That sure is an important gospel, since according to you the mass of humanity will be saved or doomed by "anyones guess."

The only one guessing here are the URs

How many more gospel must you come up with to keep the false doctrine of torture? It's getting hard to keep count.

How many times do you plan on bearing false witness to keep from admitting your error concerning Acts 15 and the definition of 'fornication'

 

[HuntingMan]

If God could get the truth to someone without humans, he wouldn't have called humans to that mission?

This is beyond silly. Study any tribe, people, such as the Indians through time and they all followed their beliefs until man told them about Christ.
Has God at times used other sources...maybe a few, but always for a specific purpose. Any basic study on past history shows no evidence at all that those before Christ had other revelations other than humans to know Christ. After all christians were given the great mission to bring people to Christ after Christ left.

If you can bring supporting evidence that entire tribes or people were lead to Christ without any knowledge given to them by men who new Christ, I would love to see it......good luck. I certainly believe God can use any possible action to those lost that have heard the message of Christ and not accepted him.

Evidence has already been provided there that angels can do their JOB and bring messages to men

 

[HuntingMan]

No, we connect biblical truth that was ruined by men that brought in the pagan teaching of torture.

Which would apparently mean you cant believe that ET teachings in scripture belong there...

Men like Justin, ect. If you would actually take the time to see how and when torture came about, you would see it as nothing but a tool of man....fear to control the masses as we have clearly proven in this thread. The actual ones that created the ET doctrine stated such.

Sorry but Christ and His apostles spoke about ET....deal with it

The complete message of the bible is UR.

Fallacious.
Even your twist on 1 Cor 15 was exposed as error.

We actually believe the verses.

You believe the verses you can twist to say what you want them to say.

It's sad you can't accept verses at face value when they are stated as such.

You mean ones that show that torment is 'everlasting'...those verses ?

Your whole concept contradicts itself over and over as we have proven...you ignore verses, create many gospel messages and say we bear false witness.

No....YOU are the one who did the false witness thing, chap...YOU are the one who accused me of denying the essentials of the faith AFTER I stated very clearly what *I* believe.

Our goal is not to force anyone to accept UR.

As if you could...

We just know the mass of Christians have believed what they have been told.

I believe what years of study causes me to believe....precisely why I typically dont fit in at any church Ive visited as far as doctrine is concerned...

They don't know that the mass of the early church was UR.

'
You mean SOME of the fallible ECFs believed UR heresy...

They don't know that eternal torture was a pagan concept that existed long before Christ was born.

So now you even accused Christ and His apostles of being pagan and teaching pagan lies...

They don't know that Christians, basically the Romans twisted the scriptures to allow ET to control man.

Any PROOF for the assertion from a scholar WE can trust ??

 

[HuntingMan]

Forced worship has never brought glory to God.

huh....and forced worship is EXACTLY what UR heresy teaches.
Even those who HATE God and DONT want His truth supposedly WILL end up having to worship Him in the end according to your heresies....

 

[HuntingMan]

Eternal Torment/punishment
Eternal torment - Kolazo vs Kolasis
Mans choice to sin
Ressurection
Can man reject God/salvation?

 

[Armistead]

Evidence has already been provided there that angels can do their JOB and bring messages to men

Yawn......no answers...Tell me one case other than in the bible an angel brought the salvation message to a group of people? Do we now trust angels for the message of salvation...think hard on that one.

I hop all will see there is only one way ALL man has been saved..Christ.
They need not know it or accept it..it was a free gift to humanity. Christ didn't come to condemn the world as ET teaches..he came to set the world free.

Reegardless of what you believe, you OWE it to yourself to question any belief. Study both issues side by side..all the info is on the net.

Ask yourself this...When you got saved...was it out of wanting to know and serve Christ...or was it fear of being toasted for eternity. Were you called down to an alter to get out of hell.. That is nothing but spiritual rape...trading service for fear. Sure many come to serve Christ after they learn about him.

A person can hold a gun to someones head and get them to say anything.
Eternal torture is no different.

 

[Armistead]

huh....and forced worship is EXACTLY what UR heresy teaches.
Even those who HATE God and DONT want His truth supposedly WILL end up having to worship Him in the end according to your heresies....

Once they know him, without religion...they will all willingly come. God's power will woo them into the fold. When one comes face to face with absolute LOVE...their hate will fall...their knees bend and willingly confess him...

Yes, I know you believe God will rewire their brains and with his power FORCE them to bow and confess him. Do you really think God needs an unwilling person to worship him...NO, he only wants worship in truth and spirit. He would not accept forced worship.

 

[Armistead]

HM, I really can't believe you can't understand the difference between God reconciling people and God forcing...as you claim UR does.

Any parent knows the difference. I've explained it before. When my children fail me, I use correct methods of love, even if it means some pain to bring them to proper knowledge and behavior. Any parent that wants to raise a child properly, uses many loving and practical tools to reconcile their children to the truth. Should I just let them go on their way to whatever? Loving parents may use some mild pain, such as spanking...but a loving parent only uses pain to PROCTECT and guide, not to be brutal for no reason.

See, you believe in a God that is brutal for no reason. He just tortures eternally for no purpose. How can billions of screaming tortured people bring glory to a God that is defined by love. It really tells us why eternal torture is such a sick doctrine. You compare God to a parent that is a child abuser...you make him the abuser of man.

If a loving parent can use tools to reconcile their children..think how a God that is LOVE can do so much better.

 

[Armistead]

apparently YOU missed MY point
Angels could EASILY be dispatched to bring the TRUTH of Christ to someone God WANTED to have the gospel who never had a HUMAN teacher come to them
Oh please...I can read poster...and Im certainly not an idiot. He directly accused me of saying there was other ways than Christ....and YOU have chimed right in on that false accusation...

Scripture doesnt give us enough data to make any absolute statement on that issue.
Do you really think Im ignorant enough to let you lead me down some path where you can 'trap' me, T ?

And tell me where *I* said anything of the sort.
*I* said Christ is the ONLY way.
and *I* also said that *I* trust God that HE knows what He's doing where those who never hear the gospel is concerned.
You and Armistead read that comment and thought you had caught me in some error you could pin me on.....you were wrong.

I believe that CHRIST is the ONLY way to the Father.
Is that clear enough for you ?

You clearly have trapped yourself and can't come up with any way to get yourself out....so you just rant the same old stuff...connect us to satan, say we're bearing false witness, ect....Old fundie tactics...hoping to keep us up at night looking under the bed for the boogie man God's going to send to get us....

You know we GOTCHA...You're heads been whizzing trying to explain all your gospels...then not explain them...then make more. I get dizzy keeping up with them all.

It's so obvious. All those that believe ET get tripped up here, so don't take it to heart...that's why they all just say..."God is just or has another plan." forgetting Christ is the ONLY WAY....

If God has other "just plans" or "accountability issues", or my favorite so far..the plan of "anyones guess."...then clearly Christ is not the only way to you...so stop saying he is.

 

[HuntingMan]

Yawn......no answers...

Yawn...nothing but out of context nothing...

Tell me one case other than in the bible an angel brought the salvation message to a group of people?

What a joke.
What angels do for a living is documented chap...deal with it.

Do we now trust angels for the message of salvation...think hard on that one.

The possibility is something you arent really qualified to dismiss

Reegardless of what you believe, you OWE it to yourself to question any belief.

Oh please.
I spend hundreds of hours a years checking and REchecking the details....precisely why those of your error cant get a foothold in these discussions...

Study both issues side by side..all the info is on the net.

No chap....all the info is in GODS WORD.


irrelevance snipped..

Eternal Torment/punishment
Eternal torment - Kolazo vs Kolasis
Mans choice to sin
Ressurection
Can man reject God/salvation?

 

[HuntingMan]

Once they know him, without religion...they will all willingly come.

hilarious.
You question that angels (ie 'MESSENGERS') can bring the gospel MESSAGE then turn around and make statements like this that ARENT scriptural at all....complete nonsense....show us chapter and verse, chap...

God's power will woo them into the fold. When one comes face to face with absolute LOVE...their hate will fall...their knees bend and willingly confess him...

according to GODS word the resurrection destination will be final and eternal.

Yes, I know you believe God will rewire their brains and with his power FORCE them to bow and confess him.

You dont know anything about my views, poster...youve made that very clear the last 10 pages or so.

Eternal Torment/punishment
Eternal torment - Kolazo vs Kolasis
Mans choice to sin
Ressurection
Can man reject God/salvation?

 

[HuntingMan]

HM, I really can't believe you can't understand the difference between God reconciling people and God forcing...as you claim UR does.

But *I* do believe that URs are entirely willing to twist Gods word to say what they want it to say....

See, you believe in a God that is brutal for no reason. He just tortures eternally for no purpose.

Whats even funnier is that UR believes He will torment souls unto conformity....burn them in flames till they cave.

Eternal Torment/punishment
Eternal torment - Kolazo vs Kolasis
Mans choice to sin
Ressurection
Can man reject God/salvation?

 

[HuntingMan]

You clearly have trapped yourself and can't come up with any way to get yourself out..

Oh please.
Youve hardly trapped anyone, poster....youve only proven your desperation with your absurdities such as 1 Cor 15 being about UR when it is CLEARLY about resurrection from the dead instead. I noticed you dropped that line pretty quickly a few pages back when you were nailed yet again...

..so you just rant the same old stuff...

ditto.

connect us to satan, say we're bearing false witness, ect....Old fundie tactics...hoping to keep us up at night looking under the bed for the boogie man God's going to send to get us....

You know what *I* said and you still claimed otherwise....in the real world that is called lying.

You know we GOTCHA...

What I know is that you havent got a thing....I think we all know that now.
What I also know is the game that youre playing here....I'll be on a bit better watch from here on out.

You're heads been whizzing trying to explain all your gospels...then not explain them...then make more. I get dizzy keeping up with them all.

(rollseyes)

It's so obvious. All those that believe ET get tripped up here, so don't take it to heart...that's why they all just say..."God is just or has another plan." forgetting Christ is the ONLY WAY....

Let me know when youve actually tripped me up, poster...

If God has other "just plans" or "accountability issues", or my favorite so far..the plan of "anyones guess."...then clearly Christ is not the only way to you...so stop saying he is.

Gods just plan is to get the gospel of Christ to those whom HE knows will accept His Son.


Eternal Torment/punishment
Eternal torment - Kolazo vs Kolasis
Mans choice to sin
Ressurection
Can man reject God/salvation?

 

[HuntingMan]

.

ARMISTEAD....please RETURN to the TOPIC of this thread and keep any and all personal comments out of your posts from here on out.
I will do the same.
*IF* you have an actual argument to present, do so. If not, I think we are finished here.

thanks for your cooperation.

Eternal Torment/punishment
Eternal torment - Kolazo vs Kolasis
Mans choice to sin
Ressurection
Can man reject God/salvation?
.

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Once they know him, without religion...they will all willingly come.
​

Where does the Bible say this?? And IT IS religion to accept God.
Look it up in the dictionary, all spirituality is headed under
"religion" as a term.

And anyone has any opportunity RIGHT THIS SECOND to internally
accept YHWY and make him 'non religious' in their own private life.

So becuz "religion" exists, that's what people are rejecting?

The BIBLE states they reject God becuz they prefer darkness; they
prefer their own way without obedience and submission to Him.
they dislike His ways and His standards and they most importantly
dislike HIM.

And what does that say for those who accepted God IN FAITH?
(and esp. while there was "religion" all around them).

These are your versions of excuses as to why people don't come, when
the Bible says they don't come becuz their hearts are hardened &
they prefer darkness over light - God's specific light that interferes
with their own.

 

[Nadiine]

.

ARMISTEAD....please RETURN to the TOPIC of this thread and keep any and all personal comments out of your posts from here on out.
I will do the same.
*IF* you have an actual argument to present, do so. If not, I think we are finished here.

thanks for your cooperation.

Eternal Torment/punishment
Eternal torment - Kolazo vs Kolasis
Mans choice to sin
Ressurection
Can man reject God/salvation?
.

it keeps getting more non biblical as it goes along; not surprising
since the doctrine leads to all kinds of error

 

[hogndog]

The Elect
God's Chosen People

To the Christians dispersed among the nations Peter writes: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy" (1 Peter 2:9,10).

What a privilege it is to be God's chosen people. "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom He has chosen as His own inheritance" (Psalm 33:12). On the last day, only God's elect will be saved: "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matthew 24:31 // Mark 13:27).

The concept of God's chosen people is first found in the Old Testament. God chose Israel as His special people. "And because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them; and He brought you out of Egypt with His Presence, with His mighty power" (Deuteronomy 4:37). "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth" (Deuteronomy 7:6 // Deuteronomy 14:2).

"But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend. You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its farthest regions, And said to you, 'You are My servant, I have chosen you and have not cast you away; Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand'" (Isaiah 41:8-11).

Who are God's chosen people now? Jesus warned: "Many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14 // Matthew 20:16).

Now that the promised Messiah has come, God's chosen people are they who accept Him as Lord and Savior: "For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people'" (Acts 3:22,23). "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were hardened" (Romans 11:5-7).

The election is no longer based on physical lineage, but on one's relationship with the Messiah: "He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful" (Revelation 17:14).

The election of physical Israel was but a sign of a higher spiritual election on the basis, not of the lineage of Abraham, but of the faith of Abraham. This was God's plan even before the creation of the world. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:3-6).

As Peter says in the salutation of his first letter, this election in Christ is based on the foreknowledge of God: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied" (1 Peter 1:1,2).

Paul explains this more fully in his letter to the Romans. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us" (Romans 8:28-34).

"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do" (Colossians 3:12,13).

This election before the foundation of the world was in Christ, which means that we are part of God's chosen people only if we are in Christ and remain in Him. Peter tells us how we can make our calling and election sure: "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:2-11).

Roy Davison

The Scripture quotations in this article are from The New King James Version. ©1979,1980,1982, Thomas Nelson Inc.,

Publishers.
Permission for reference use has been granted.