Ephesians 2:8-9

[twin1954]

Hi twin,

Well, it isn't the conviction the Spirit has given me in reading the Scriptures.

God bless you.
In Christ Ted

I understand that. But I can still pray that He does that for you.

 

[Hank77]

That is the whole point. If I give you a gift I make it yours to do with as you desire because it now belongs to you. I gave it to you. If I offer you something you can refuse it and it never becomes yours to begin with. You have no right to it or control over it because it isn't yours. Why is such a simple concept so difficult to understand by those who want to defend man's imaginary free will salvation?

And I can refuse to take your gift. I can say No, you can keep it, I don't want it.
Let's see, when was that gift given? I believe that gift was given at the Cross. The Christ died only one time for all. He is God's gift to us. The Christ is salvation, we are saved because we are in Him. Salvation is not eternal life. We will have eternal life because we are in Him.

Actually the boat analogy is false in the first place. What it doesn't take into account is that both of the men deserve to die.

Yes, exactly they both deserve to die. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the analogy? Please explain.

What God doesn't control must control Him. Whatever controls Him is His God. A study of the attributes of God will shine a great deal of light on the sovereignty and character of God as He describes Himself in the Scriptures. He never says I wish, I hope, I want or I plan. He says I will and then usually follows it with and you shall. He never plans He purposes.

If God Chooses to allow man to choose Him, how is that man controlling God? Doesn't God as the omnipotent God have the right to say to man...."I put before you life and death, choose life." Why can't God do that? It seems to me that it is Calvinism that is saying what God can do and what God cannot do, directly in opposition to God's own words.

Here are more words directly from the mouth of the omnipotent God.

Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart.

Are you saying that the sinful Israelites were controlling God when they did this? God is very clear that He didn't have anything to do with their actions, it was their choice.

He never plans His purposes.

??? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Maybe you could give scripture to help me understand what you are referring to.
If God never plans His purposes what are all the prophecies of the coming Messiah? What was God saying to Abraham about the promised Seed?

Good question.

What is your answer? I'm pretty sure you have already expressed what you believe is happening here.

 

[miamited]

I understand that. But I can still pray that He does that for you.

Hi twin,

Yes, I always appreciate prayers offered on my behalf.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Hank77]

The Lord is not speaking to all men He is speaking to a congregation that are supposed to be believers. In that context to use it as though He is speaking to all men is to rip it out and apply it to whomever you want.

I specifically quoted the scripture that says He is talking to the assemblies. Do you think that all those in the assemblies are repentant, saved people? That they have all overcome?
If He uses the door as an analogy of knocking on their unrepentant mind and heart, why would His message be any different to any man's unrepentant mind and heart? Does He convict the unrepentant in the church differently than those that are still outside the church?

As for those whom God loves outside the church there is no such thing.

Jesus said, 'If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." When He was lifted up, beaten and bloody, nailed to a tree, scourged by the Gentile Romans, condemned by the Jews, and deserted by most of His followers, He said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

What good is His love for all those whom He sends to Hell? That kind of love is worthless and makes God the object of pity more than of worship. That kind of love is powerless and pointless. It reduces the love of God to a mere emotion just like a man has.

No, men love those who love them, it is hard to love someone who does not return that love. It is a selflessness that does not come naturally to men. This is agape love. Only God is naturally capable of that kind of love. The kind of love that will cause a Father to give the life of His very own son in order to save despicable men.
He loved you before you loved Him. You were His enemy, a sinner.

Luk_5:32 I came not to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Rom_5:8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;

Does God say 'do as I say, not as I do?'

Luk 6:35 `But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward will be great, and ye shall be sons of the Highest, because He is kind unto the ungracious and evil;
Luk 6:36 be ye therefore merciful, as also your Father is merciful.

Would you have ever wanted to turn towards God if you were told that God hated you? That is not the Gospel message.
Here's a really good site for some wonderful grace, faith, and Spirit filled sermons.
http://www.spurgeon.org/

 

[twin1954]

And I can refuse to take your gift. I can say No, you can keep it, I don't want it.

Only if I offer it to you not as a gift. You can't offer a gift for that would destroy what a gift is. It wouldn't be a gift it would be an offer. Language matters and so do words. What makes a gift a gift is that you have no part in whether it becomes yours or not.

Let's see, when was that gift given? I believe that gift was given at the Cross.

Actually you do err not knowing the Scriptures. Christ was given to the elect of God before the foundation of the world. He was promised in Gen. 3:15 and is called the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8

The Christ died only one time for all.

All of whom? He plainly tells us that He lays His life down for the sheep in John 10:11 and in verse 26 of John 10 He tells some folks that they do not believe because they are not His sheep. So it seems obvious that there are some for whom He says that He didn't lay down His life.

He is God's gift to us. The Christ is salvation, we are saved because we are in Him. Salvation is not eternal life. We will have eternal life because we are in Him.

No denying that at all. Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift!

Yes, exactly they both deserve to die. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the analogy? Please explain.

The analogy sets up a false premise as though both men deserved to be saved. It has nothing to do with reality in fact and is a useless example of what salvation is. It is intended to give a false impression on the unthinking.

If God Chooses to allow man to choose Him, how is that man controlling God?

Because no matter how you put it God must react to what man does and that means that man is actually in control.

Doesn't God as the omnipotent God have the right to say to man...."I put before you life and death, choose life." Why can't God do that?

It is exactly what God does but it isn't in order to give man a choice but to give man a command from the King. He in no way says "now I am going to let you abuse my grace and mercy and ignore my commands because I want to give you a choice" That is a ridiculous idea. No He says to choose life because it is only reasonable that man does so. Yet they cannot and will not because they do not want it or think that they need it. They are dead in sin and cannot bring themselves to life in order to believe.

It seems to me that it is Calvinism that is saying what God can do and what God cannot do, directly in opposition to God's own words.

Actually it is according to God's word that we believe what we do. God says that He cannot deny Himself so it isn't us dictating to God what he can do it is Him and His nature.

Here are more words directly from the mouth of the omnipotent God.

Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart.

Are you saying that the sinful Israelites were controlling God when they did this? God is very clear that He didn't have anything to do with their actions, it was their choice.

Please don't use passages of Scripture to make them say what they do not intend. The context of the passage is God proclaiming by the mouth of Jeremiah His wrath on the Israelites because of their abominations and forsaking the worship He commanded them. The intent of the passage is not to teach that Israel did something that God never thought that they would do. Yes they chose to do it but they did it exactly as they desired to do and exactly as God had purposed for them to do. I will give you two examples from the Scriptures: Joseph and his brothers is the first. Joseph's brothers hated him and want to kill him and ended up selling him into slavery in Egypt but according to Joseph they did it exactly as God had determined for them to do. Gen. 50:20 The second is when the Jews hung the Lord of glory on a Roman cross. God tells us very plainly by the mouth of Peter that they did it because they were evil and they did exactly according to the foreordination and purpose of God. Acts 2:23

??? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Maybe you could give scripture to help me understand what you are referring to.

God never says that He has a plan. I challenge anyone to find one instance in the Scriptures of such a thing. God has a purpose. Plans are made and changed according to the circumstances but a purpose doesn't change. God has determined the end from the beginning and will do all His pleasure according to His wise and glorious purpose.

(Isa 14:24) The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

(Isa 14:25) That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

(Isa 14:26) This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

(Isa 14:27) For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

If God never plans His purposes what are all the prophecies of the coming Messiah? What was God saying to Abraham about the promised Seed?

It wasn't a plan but a determination to accomplish what He determined to do and all the means by which to accomplish His purpose. He is wise and powerful and rules among the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay His hand or say to Him what are you doing? Daniel 4:35

What is your answer? I'm pretty sure you have already expressed what you believe is happening here.

It means that the man who was saved actually saved himself because he did something that the other did not do.

 

[twin1954]

I specifically quoted the scripture that says He is talking to the assemblies. Do you think that all those in the assemblies are repentant, saved people? That they have all overcome?
If He uses the door as an analogy of knocking on their unrepentant mind and heart, why would His message be any different to any man's unrepentant mind and heart? Does He convict the unrepentant in the church differently than those that are still outside the church?

Jesus said, 'If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." When He was lifted up, beaten and bloody, nailed to a tree, scourged by the Gentile Romans, condemned by the Jews, and deserted by most of His followers, He said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

No, men love those who love them, it is hard to love someone who does not return that love. It is a selflessness that does not come naturally to men. This is agape love. Only God is naturally capable of that kind of love. The kind of love that will cause a Father to give the life of His very own son in order to save despicable men.
He loved you before you loved Him. You were His enemy, a sinner.

Luk_5:32 I came not to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Rom_5:8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;

Does God say 'do as I say, not as I do?'

Luk 6:35 `But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward will be great, and ye shall be sons of the Highest, because He is kind unto the ungracious and evil;
Luk 6:36 be ye therefore merciful, as also your Father is merciful.

Would you have ever wanted to turn towards God if you were told that God hated you? That is not the Gospel message.
Here's a really good site for some wonderful grace, faith, and Spirit filled sermons.
http://www.spurgeon.org/

I will try to answer this tomorrow. It is past my bedtime now.

 

[Hank77]

@twin1954 I would like to respong to you now, but my foxfire wants to do an update. It will keep attacking out and hiccuping until I do it. Get back later. God Bless

 

[twin1954]

@twin1954 I would like to respong to you now, but my foxfire wants to do an update. It will keep attacking out and hiccuping until I do it. Get back later. God Bless

Take your time I am in no hurry.

 

[Patmos]

That is the whole point. If I give you a gift I make it yours to do with as you desire because it now belongs to you. I gave it to you. If I offer you something you can refuse it and it never becomes yours to begin with.

Another one who refused the gift to be saved (though you deny this is possible) is described fully here.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/plane-crashes-into-potomac.

So yes it is possible to refuse a gift and this does happen all the time in the real world.

You have no right to it or control over it because it isn't yours. Why is such a simple concept so difficult to understand by those who want to defend man's imaginary free will salvation?

It is only the hyper Calvinist who invents imaginary free will and accuse others of believing it. Cos they have nothing other to shoot down?

Actually the boat analogy is false in the first place. What it doesn't take into account is that both of the men deserve to die.

ACTUALLY, Wrong again Twin. Not an analogy ( which you twisted in your previous attempt) but ACTUAL FACTUAL history.

In fact it was more than two men, rather a ship load of soldiers who were torpedoed in the Mediterranean while being sent to the North African campaign. WW2 1943.

As I said before God never refuses any who truly desire to be saved. He never turned any away who came to Him begging mercy. Nor does He drag any kicking and screaming against their will. He makes them willing.

Yet all these soldiers DID want saving. Even the atheists amongst them cried out to God!

 

[Patmos]

"It means that the man who was saved actually saved himself because he did something that the other did not do."

No. The man was hauled into the rescue boat. He no longer had any resource to do anything himself. Neither of them did, both within a few breaths of their last. I do hate the continual dodging and changing to make things mean other than what is written.

Anybody else other than twin want to think about this ?

 

[Hank77]

So does the Scripture bear out the fact that God gives this gift to all men? Of course it doesn't. Moreover they bear out the fact that those who refuse to be saved do so because they do not believe that they need to be. They would rather continue in the sin and unbelief.

I think you have disagreed with John Calvin in this statement.
I agree with your premise that men refuse to be saved for various reasons and that is scriptural.

What did Calvin say? He said there are two callings by the Holy Spirit/God. One is effectual/irresistible, and the person hearing that one will be saved. The other is general, and the person hearing that one will not be saved.
So it is not the case that men refuse to be saved but that they never hear/are given the effectual/irresistible call by the Holy Spirit.
Both men deserve death but God chooses one to die and one to live. Does He have this right? Of coarse He does as God. But is that what He does?
There is no scripture, that I know of, that even hints at there being two different calls/drawing of the Holy Spirit.

I believe there is a very simply answer in scripture. Man can resist the Holy Spirit calling and Jesus said that they did/do.

Act_7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

2Ti_3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

I believe that God gives men the faith to believe but they can resist.
Is the Holy Spirit a gift, I believe so.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

http://biblehub.com/library/augustine/on_the_holy_trinity/chapter_19_the_holy_spirit_is.htm

If we could not resist the Holy Spirit, causing Him to grieve, we would never, ever, sin again.

I know I haven't addressed all of your previous post. I will try to get to it tonight when I won't be interrupted.

 

[Goodbook]

Um doesnt it say in the bible the pharisees resisted the gift of the holy spirit? Acts 7:51

 

[Goodbook]

Oop sorry Hank already posted that scripture.

 

[Goodbook]

Well last night I gave a friend a kitchen scale she was interested in, I also offered a popsicle mould maker but she didnt want that. So I didnt give it to her. Well I offered but she refused.

So maybe its that God offers but not everyone receives. Its not that God only offers to some people and not others. Because the person that receives cant be forced into receiving, and even if they do receive maybe out of politeness not everyone will make use of the gift.

 

[Hank77]

not everyone will make use of the gift.

This reminds me about what James says about faith,
"Faith without works is dead."

 

[twin1954]

Well last night I gave a friend a kitchen scale she was interested in, I also offered a popsicle mould maker but she didnt want that. So I didnt give it to her. Well I offered but she refused.

So maybe its that God offers but not everyone receives. Its not that God only offers to some people and not others. Because the person that receives cant be forced into receiving, and even if they do receive maybe out of politeness not everyone will make use of the gift.

Neither of your examples were a gift they were offers. I am surprised that such smart and intelligent people just overlook the difference.

I know that you are an intelligent thinking person yet you ignore the whole premise and conclusion of my point.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I have a question regarding the "gift of God" that is mentioned in Ephesians 2:8.

What is the "gift" that is being referred to in this verse? Is grace the gift or is the gift faith?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)

Thanks,
BG

I have long believed that the word 'that' refers back to faith in 2.8. Verse 10 goes on to explain that a believer's works flow from faith, unlike an unbeliever's works (earlier in the chapter the unbeliever is described as 'dead in trespasses and sins').

 

[twin1954]

The modern use of the word "gift" has nothing to do with the Scriptural use of the word. When the Scriptures were written the word had a specific meaning and it is as I have pointed out. A gift and an offer are not the same thing. We cannot impose our modern use to words in the Scriptures as though they now mean and are used differently than when the Scriptures were written. We must, if we are going to be honest in our interpretations, understand the words as they were used.

I think one of the best examples is the word " predestination". It is now used as though it means God's ordering of all things. But that is never how it is used in the Scriptures. In the Scriptures the word "predestine" and "predestination" are always in connection with people. God predestines people never things.

When we think of God's ordering of things we use the word "foreordain" or "foreordination".

It may seem silly to many but the fact is that how we understand and use words, especially when it comes to theology and the Scriptures, is extremely important. Small things such as my examples can change our whole understanding of Biblical theology.

Sermon over.

 

[Isaiah 49:16]

The gift is salvation by God's grace through your faith.

I'm a new member... God bless everyone

 

[MWood]

The gift is salvation by God's grace through your faith.

I'm a new member... God bless everyone

.