Eph.4:11 Gifts. What is the work of a pastor today?

[quietbloke]

Eph.4:11 Gifts. What is the work of a pastor today?

 

[quietbloke]

A pastor cares for and nurtures the flock bringing healing and protection.He helps to train and help others to do this too.

 

[talitha]

A pastor, I believe, differs from a teacher in that it's more about the flock than about the teachings. A pastor, I think, needs to be somewhat a teacher, but there are many teachers (think Beth Moore, for example) who are not focused on a specific flock......

 

[quietbloke]

A pastor, I believe, differs from a teacher in that it's more about the flock than about the teachings. A pastor, I think, needs to be somewhat a teacher, but there are many teachers (think Beth Moore, for example) who are not focused on a specific flock......

Thankyou 'talitha'

 

[quietbloke]

A pastor is a shepherd,who works under the Great Shepherd our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[tturt]

True. Considering that most churches are small congregations, expectations of their pastor can be varied.

Some expect their pastor to visit the sick. I've known families to stop attending a particular church because their pastor didn't visit their mother-in-law's cousin while ill. But neither of them attended his congregation.

 

[quietbloke]

Some senior pastors have worked themselves to a point of exhaustion. Teams working together with a senior pastor are essential!

 

[Biblicist]

A pastor cares for and nurtures the flock bringing healing and protection.

Wouldn't this be the role of the Holy Spirit?

He helps to train and help others to do this too.

This is also an activity of those who are apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers & shepherds.

As for the five roles/activities mentioned in Eph 4, I would definitley lean to the position that we all fit into one of these five roles in some way or form. As for the role of the shepherd (aka, pastor), this role could be performed by anyone who is a homegroup leader, children's or youth leader or even with someone who can standby someone who is hurting where they encourage them in the Lord. Over the years this passage as oddly been twisted to try and equate these roles with church leadership which is far from the truth. This in my opinion has seriously undermined the ministry of the Full Gospel movement.

 

[Dave-W]

If you really want the answer - read this book:

https://www.csmpublishing.org/product/the-challenge-to-care/

 

[Dave-W]

A pastor cares for and nurtures the flock bringing healing and protection.

Wouldn't this be the role of the Holy Spirit?

Yes, but God always works thru His People. In this case, he works thru those who have the pastoral gifting in a congregation.

 

[quietbloke]

'quietbloke' said,"A pastor cares for and nurtures the flock,bringing healing and protection'This is part of the work of the 'Eph.4:11 gift'of a pastor.''Biblicist asked,"Is not this the role of the Holy Spirit?" The answer ,of course is yes! 'Jesus said,"I will build My Church..' He builds His Church through the Holy Spirit using His people with the gifts He gives and other gifts also tend and nurture.Every member of the Body is to care and nurture others also,but not every believer is an Eph.4:11 gift of a pastor.An Eph.4:11 gift is one of the 5 gifts mentioned,that God gives by grace to certain people,who are also to train and equip others to do this ministry also and if gifted could well be house group leaders or other aspects of feeding and sharing. As already said,we are not saying that one man should do it all but teams are essential and it is not just the senior pastor of a church.

 

[quietbloke]

Thankyou DaveW-Ohev. Could you tell us who Charles Simpson is?

 

[Dave-W]

Thankyou DaveW-Ohev. Could you tell us who Charles Simpson is?

Sure. He is an ordained SBA pastor (now retired) and son of a missionary, grew up on the Louisiana bayous. He became a pentecostal in the 1960s and ultimately withdrew his church from the SBA and went independent. I believe the congregation is now pastored by his grandson Johathan. Charles' son Stephen just retired from full time pastoring to run Charles Simpson Ministries.

Back in the 1970s that organization was known as Integrity Communications, and is where the Integrity Hosanna label for worship recordings started.

Charles was, along with Derek Prince, Don Basham and Bob Mumford, an architech of the discipleship/shepherding experiment.

 

[quietbloke]

Thankyou 'DaveW'.

 

[Biblicist]

'quietbloke' said,"A pastor cares for and nurtures the flock,bringing healing and protection'This is part of the work of the 'Eph.4:11 gift'of a pastor.

As Eph 4:11 says that there are five roles that are given “for the building up of the church”, it always fascinates me that people regularly only refer to the role of the shepherd. If we wish to adopt the so-called “Five Fold ministry model” then we would need to have five individuals in joint leadership of our congregations as the Scriptures do not give even a hint that a shepherd (aka, pastor) is supposed to be in charge, if anything, we would expect that a teacher would be in charge which is why some denominations attempt to say that the roles of the shepherd and teacher are one in the same.

In 1Cor 12:28 Paul tells us that the Father has established 8 Offices for the local congregation, which are;

1. Apostle
2. Prophet
3. Teacher
4. Deeds of Powers (aka, miracles)
5. Healings
6. Helps
7. Administrations/guidance
8. Tongues

It should be noted that Paul makes no reference to there being an Office of the shepherd/pastor. When Paul uses the term shepherding, it is not with regard to any supposed role of a shepherd/pastor but that the elders in particular are to shepherd the congregation.

''Biblicist asked,"Is not this the role of the Holy Spirit?" The answer ,of course is yes! 'Jesus said,"I will build My Church..' He builds His Church through the Holy Spirit using His people with the gifts He gives and other gifts also tend and nurture.Every member of the Body is to care and nurture others also,but not every believer is an Eph.4:11 gift of a pastor.An Eph.4:11 gift is one of the 5 gifts mentioned,that God gives by grace to certain people,who are also to train and equip others to do this ministry also and if gifted could well be house group leaders or other aspects of feeding and sharing. As already said,we are not saying that one man should do it all but teams are essential and it is not just the senior pastor of a church.

I have to ask you, where do you find the role of a ‘senior pastor’ in the Scriptures? Paul only ever mentions that the elders (plural) are the senior (and joint) leaders of the local congregation. I doubt if anyone in the first century ever thought that a shepherd/pastor was supposed to be the senior leader of the local congregation.

 

[Dave-W]

In 1Cor 12:28 Paul tells us that the Father has established 8 Offices for the local congregation, which are;

Not the only list. Ephesians 4.11 DOES list pastor as a valid congregational office.

I have to ask you, where do you find the role of a ‘senior pastor’ in the Scriptures?

Paul telling Timothy how to run his congregation. (with Tim as the sr pastor)

 

[quietbloke]

Elders work together to lead a local church. There should be a leading elder. Whether he is called the senior minister or senior pastor or senior elder or whatever.

 

[Biblicist]

If you really want the answer - read this book:

https://www.csmpublishing.org/product/the-challenge-to-care/

Dave, as Simpson was one of the notorious five ministries that promoted the horrid discipleship movement that began in the 70's, then many of us who sufferred through this heretical movement would struggle to accept anything that comes from the pen of these individuals, particularly when it comes to church ministry and government. It seems that Simpson was the only one of the five who have failed to repent of the destruction that their heresies caused throughout the 70's and 80's.

 

[Biblicist]

Not the only list. Ephesians 4.11 DOES list pastor as a valid congregational office.

Unlike 1Cor 12:28 where Paul states that the Father has established 8 Congregational Offices (which are not necesarily connected with church government), with the five roles in Eph 4 Paul does not connect them with church government nor does he provided any hint or suggestion that a shephered (aka, pastor) is supposed to be in charge of a church.

Paul telling Timothy how to run his congregation. (with Tim as the sr pastor)

From Paul's letters to Timothy we do not see any suggestion that he was "in charge" of the Ephesian church but merely that he was sent their as a representative of Paul. Even though Timothy was highly favoured by Paul, it seems that he was not a strong leader which is why Paul had to intervene on his behalf to the elders with two Epistles. These two letters would have given some support to Timothy's role in Ephesus where the Elders would have recognised as Timothy read the two letters to the church that he was not there on his own authority but with Pauls.

Considering the power and influence that many within Ephesus had, Timothy would have found himself in a very awkward position as the Ephesian elders would be less than inclined to accept an outsider who may be trying to impose himself on the local Christian community. As Timothy was only there under the authority of Paul, which the Ephesian elders would respect, this means that Timothy would have to tread very carefully and it seems that from Paul's letters that Timothy was struggling to be accepted by the Elders.

 

[Biblicist]

Elders work together to lead a local church. There should be a leading elder. Whether he is called the senior minister or senior pastor or senior elder or whatever.

Even though the Scriptures tell us that each local congregation is to be governed by a plurality of Elders, along with the support of the Deacons, it is interesting that Paul does not go any further with any suggestions that there should be a president appointed from amongst the Elders. This may have been a pragmatic choice on his part as the authority of any local assembly of Elders would be controlled by the social setting that the local church finds itself within.

In my opinion, I would like to see a rotating presidency where the presidency is shared by various Elders over a period of time, though not all Elders would be necessarily suited to this role.