EO family member baptised in Baptist Church.

[All4Christ]

One of my coworkers was Orthodox as a child and teen...in his late teens he left for a Protestant Evangelical church. He attended there for years...got married there and had his first child during the time he attended that church. However...he realized at the point of having his first child that, while he loved God, he did not have the fullness of the faith there with him. Now he has returned to the Orthodoxy...his wife has converted, and his other children all are Orthodox as well. His second oldest just got married in the Orthodox Church. Often, I think our faith and upbringing comes back, even once we have been gone for a long time.

 

[George95]

Unfortunately quite common. Im in that business and the crazy hours and shifts has left my sleep patterns in disarray. Heck just the fact im in NY and most of my posts are written past midnite is evidence of that. When I was in my 20's I worked the overnight shift at a 24 hour diner, got home 8am showered up and went to church. Now i cant even get up as usually i doze off at 5am, its actually harder now for me to go to church. The hours and always having to be there is problematic.

It's really crazy, but that's honestly the restaurant business. And Greeks are stubborn.

 

[ArmyMatt]

One of my coworkers was Orthodox as a child and teen...in his late teens he left for a Protestant Evangelical church. He attended there for years...got married there and had his first child during the time he attended that church. However...he realized at the point of having his first child that, while he loved God, he did not have the fullness of the faith there with him. Now he has returned to the Orthodoxy...his wife has converted, and his other children all are Orthodox as well. His second oldest just got married in the Orthodox Church. Often, I think our faith and upbringing comes back, even once we have been gone for a long time.

same thing happened to a priest I know, Fr Peter Dubinin. he left and became a Baptist pastor for a while because the parish that he was raised was more about being Ukrainian than Orthodox, but said that Orthodoxy (especially Pascha) never left him.

 

[George95]

I spoke to her today. She understands the Church, but she says the Orthodox Church is dead and that God has better for her or something like that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

can she clarify how Orthodoxy is dead? that's usually just an anticatholic talking point that we get lumped in with.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wonder if she is responding to the emotionalism in the service?

An Orthodox priest said something on a podcast that at first shocked me. I don't remember exactly how he said it, but he said something about how dead the liturgy would be if a person didn't engage it spiritually - only went through the motions of religious forms. He said it would be vain repetition.

It shocked me so much, I thought about for a while. And I realized he was absolutely right. I came to the Orthodox Church already very accustomed to engaging spiritually. It wasn't to my taste preferences (at least the chant alone, without choir, really wasn't at all - especially most of what I had heard on YouTube). But I DID engage, and almost always have. I rarely get distracted or think of other things. But I tried to imagine the liturgy if one doesn't engage with it, and you know what? It probably COULD BE a seemingly endless droning. That's difficult for me to imagine, because it's FAR from that for me, but for some folks it just could be.

If by chance that's all a person got out of it, it probably could seem dead, and some Protestant expressions could seem very exciting and "alive" by contrast.

I have no idea if this is the case for your relative, George. And I'm not quite sure how best to help her if this is the case.

It does sound as though she is being pulled by emotions of some kind though, and certainly not theology. So I just thought this could be a part of it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

can she clarify how Orthodoxy is dead? that's usually just an anticatholic talking point that we get lumped in with.

Lol it took me so long to type that - I was interrupted a few times - Matt asks a much more to the point question.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You'll find that there are different reactions to situations like this among various Orthodox Christians. As someone who used to be Pentecostal, I understand the viewpoints of those who are not Orthodox. I don't agree with their conclusions - but find that it is very important for us to voice our concerns in love. George can respond from his viewpoint, but it would be concerning for me if my husband's sister suddenly decided to be baptized as Catholic

A Catholic priest would not baptise somebody who has already been baptised in the Orthodox Church. It would be a scandal for a Catholic priest to do so because the Catholic Church accepts Orthodox baptism as valid.

or started attending mass, as they are not in communion with us...however - I don't think that it is our place to be judgmental of the person. We shouldn't compromise what we believe or say that what she did is the right choice, but I 100% believe that we should try to understand and reach out to them in love.

That said, I believe it would be hurtful and concerning for any family if someone who was already baptized decided to secretly get baptized at another church.

For example, I did not tell my parents that I became a catechumen in the Orthodox Church until they saw it on the church website. Very bad idea! They didn't understand at first - though they tried. However, it would have been a much easier process if I had talked to them and communicated why I felt like I needed to do this. They may have disagreed, but it would have been a much kinder way for them to hear about it. I regret the way I handled the situation.

I would like to ask everyone here to be cautious as to what you say on the forum. Please don't compromise what you believe, make apologies for it or agree that something is right that isn't. However - our example of Christ and the Theotokos shows us that we are to approach others in love. Despite us not agreeing from someone, as gxg said, we may learn from discussions. Moreso, we can learn that we are to love people no matter what. We are an example of what Orthodox Christians are like, as many do not meet others in person. This is the first place I found out about Orthodoxy - and I am grateful I did not see some of the responses I have seen lately. Who knows where I would be now.

If this has offended anyone, I apologize - as I don't mean to sound self-righteous or sound like i am know-it-all...but please consider what I am saying. For the sake of those we love and for those we want to share our faith with...please consider what you say.

 

[All4Christ]

A Catholic priest would not baptise somebody who has already been baptised in the Orthodox Church. It would be a scandal for a Catholic priest to do so because the Catholic Church accepts Orthodox baptism as valid.

Thanks for the clarification. I mentioned Catholic baptism in response to the person who asked about our reaction to rebaptizing outside of Protestant churches (he asked about whether the response would be the same if she were baptized in the Catholic Church). I didn't mean to imply that a Catholic priest would actually do that, as I can't claim to know the details of baptism of converts / non-Catholics in Catholicism. Just FYI, should a Catholic decide to become Orthodox, he/she would (most likely) just be chrismated, and not baptized, since the baptism in the Catholic Church was completed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

to say there is NO grace outside of the Church is false.

Came across this the other day from Fr.Arnesto - and I have to say that I felt it was very on point with the way to approach things. As said there:

This is a bit of a parallel piece to a post on Internetmonk called Conversations in the Great Hall. Let me start with the same quote from C.S. Lewis with which the other article started:

I hope no reader will suppose that “mere” Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions — as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else.

It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall, I have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may be) is, I think preferable. It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into the room you will find that the long wait has done some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling.

In plain language, the question should never be: “Do I like that kind of service?” but “Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?”

When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. This is one of the rules common to the whole house. • C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity​

Among many Orthodox, there is a dislike of the word ecumenism. It is a dislike found not only in the USA, but also in Greece, Russia, etc. Many other Orthodox do not mind the term and disagree with their brethren. But, perhaps I can use C.S. Lewis to differentiate between the issues that crop up, perhaps between inappropriate ecumenism and an appropriate gentle love for those who are seeking to follow Christ.

Those who react against inappropriate ecumenism have some very good points. Often ecumenism has meant the watering down of doctrines in order to get along with those of other Christian backgrounds. Or, it has meant not judging doctrines to the point that sound theological debate is not even possible. At times, it has even meant being present in services that deny doctrines that the Orthodox consider to be central and crucial doctrines. In other words, it is one thing to engage someone who calls themselves Christian in sound and respectful theological debate. It is another thing to be forced to silence under the guise of tolerance.

But C.S. Lewis many decades ago showed a respectful way to approach the subject. It is an approach that is clearly not individual, and also clearly points to joining a church. His approach relies strongly on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and, yes, on a belief that all true groups have something of God in them. As Orthodox, we would not buy into the great hall with multiple rooms approach, as we do not agree with all the rooms being part of the same house. At the end, he even says that “if they are wrong they need your prayers all the more.” Mr. Lewis’ approach points us toward loving intercessory prayer rather than to angry spiteful debate. It is not an approach of ecumenism per se, but it is a recognition that our living reality is that people calling themselves Christian are found in divers places and divers times.

Lest any of my Orthodox brethren misunderstand, the issue is not what the Church is here on Earth. Rather, Mr. Lewis was speaking of how God often works with people and how people respond to God. Metropolitan Kallistos comments:

“Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church” (G. Florovsky, “Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church”, in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: “How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!” (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a “visible” and an “invisible Church”, yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say. —Kallistos Ware, titular Metropolitan of Diokleia.​

So, there is a difference between ecumenism and gentle love. Ecumenism is all about programs and theological discussion. Gentle love is about recognizing that “we cannot always say” who is a member of the Church and therefore must have a certain sense of openness to the mystery of God’s work among people.​