EO family member baptised in Baptist Church.

[All4Christ]

It's sad for me to hear that, since one of the things I appreciated about Orthodoxy was that it also made sure we knew what we believed, as my previous church did. It grieves me to see Protestant churches go even further from the true faith and not even know what they believe.

For example, visiting my old church - it doesn't even seem like the same place with the same teachings, even though it has only been 8 years.

 

[All4Christ]

I would say that is true - that they often have more order than many other Pentecostals. Some are very moderate. It's just been impossible, ime, to predict for sure, but more of them I've been in have been conservative than not. And they generally do not want to allow congregants to interrupt the service with "tongues" - even in some of the more demonstrative ones. There are other conservative Pentecostal denominations though. I had found Foursquare, for example, to be well balanced, and good at following their particular beliefs, which generally meant an orderly assembly. I'm not one of them either anymore ... but as you said, I don't like to see them misrepresented. But around here, there was Brownsville AoG (if anyone is familiar with the stories on that one - and yes, I have been there), which spilled out into other churches as well, so that may have made things more - chaotic - than they might have been otherwise.

I didn't mean to sound like all Pentecostal churches beside AoG were not conservative sorry if I wrote it that way! And I understand what you mean about some AoG churches that are chaotic...we left one like that for the one my family goes to now

 

[~Anastasia~]

Cessation of miracles in the Baptist context generally means God still brings about miracles but in natural ways most of the time, although they believe that big flashy miracles do happen on occasion. The Baptist church my wife was baptized at had the elders anoint a woman with oil who had stage 4 brain cancer and the next day she went in for a check up and it disappeared. This is something usually only Pentecostal's do but Baptists will do it--just with extreme caution because they are afraid of falling into idolatry by anointing the sick too much(Baptists I have been around usually only anoint in small groups not around the congregation). Pentecostals will anoint whoever, whenever, and shout hallelujah and dance afterwards lol

Not to be argumentative ... but it might be more accurate to say that Pentecostals vs. Baptist has more to do with cessation of the charisma/gifts of the Holy Spirit, rather than miracles.

Pentecostals generally believe that such gifts/manifestations are currently active and ought to be practiced (speaking in tongues, prophecy, gifts of healing, and so on - some of these are "miraculous" and some are not).

Baptist generally believe that such gifts are not give to individuals anymore, and ought not to be practiced. But they do usually believe in miracles from God - though they sometimes dance around it carefully in their printed materials.

They (Baptists) won't SAY that God doesn't do miracles. And some in fact believe strongly in them. But they tend to pray for such things as "God to guide the doctor's hands" when praying for the sick, rather than ask outright for a miracle. Not always - but usually.

I've known Baptist pastors to refuse to anoint and pray for the sick when asked. I honestly don't know if it's against their beliefs, or why they refused, but I've known it to happen at more than one church.

And I have in fact known Pentecostals to ask people to line up and just anoint everyone. In many churches I've seen it done this way.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Then, as Kylissa said, it likely is different at different places. That's the problem about a lack of ecclesiastic authority in a church...one denomination can be expressed in many ways

I think maybe THIS is the situation. I know there ARE authorities. The SBC has some kind of oversight of many Southern Baptist churches, and I think they are the most consistent, from what I have seen. But I'm not a good one to really be able to comment on that.

But there are so many different kinds of Baptists, and independents. The same is true of Pentecostals - it's not a denomination, but more a descriptor that covers many denominations. There are MANY kinds, with varying levels of oversight. Truthfully, now that I see how the Orthodox Church works - I thought there was some oversight in some of my previous churches, but it amounted to a small gathering of a few churches, or a single individual who was looked to as an authority (and who could also be rejected ... I saw that happen - which it was appropriate as the man was getting aged and made some errors in teaching from the pulpit, but then he was kindly removed and the pastor did some damage control). But anyway, the "oversight" is nothing like the authority within the Orthodox Church.

I really appreciate the many kinds of checks and balances we have, between the hierarchs, and the monastics, the laity even, and Tradition - nothing is perfect, perhaps, but I think the structure of the Orthodox Church is the best prevention against theological drift and error.

I guess we are getting too far afield from the topic. The sad thing is that all of this probably underscores George's problem in even having difficulty understanding exactly what he's dealing with.

Several have spoken of the communion. I came to the Eucharist after having had other communion, so maybe it wasn't as stark for me. I tended to be shocked at how casually it was taken in various denominations (I did not realize it was merely "symbolic" to them and nothing else) ... but if she has known the Eucharist and has any history in the Orthodox Church, perhaps she will miss the medicine of the Eucharist, and be dismayed at the lack of importance placed upon it within Baptist circles? I don't know if that can help make her realize what she's giving up ...

Praying for you and your family, George.

 

[All4Christ]

I think maybe THIS is the situation. I know there ARE authorities. The SBC has some kind of oversight of many Southern Baptist churches, and I think they are the most consistent, from what I have seen. But I'm not a good one to really be able to comment on that. But there are so many different kinds of Baptists, and independents. The same is true of Pentecostals - it's not a denomination, but more a descriptor that covers many denominations. There are MANY kinds, with varying levels of oversight. Truthfully, now that I see how the Orthodox Church works - I thought there was some oversight in some of my previous churches, but it amounted to a small gathering of a few churches, or a single individual who was looked to as an authority (and who could also be rejected ... I saw that happen - which it was appropriate as the man was getting aged and made some errors in teaching from the pulpit, but then he was kindly removed and the pastor did some damage control). But anyway, the "oversight" is nothing like the authority within the Orthodox Church. I really appreciate the many kinds of checks and balances we have, between the hierarchs, and the monastics, the laity even, and Tradition - nothing is perfect, perhaps, but I think the structure of the Orthodox Church is the best prevention against theological drift and error. I guess we are getting too far afield from the topic. The sad thing is that all of this probably underscores George's problem in even having difficulty understanding exactly what he's dealing with. Several have spoken of the communion. I came to the Eucharist after having had other communion, so maybe it wasn't as stark for me. I tended to be shocked at how casually it was taken in various denominations (I did not realize it was merely "symbolic" to them and nothing else) ... but if she has known the Eucharist and has any history in the Orthodox Church, perhaps she will miss the medicine of the Eucharist, and be dismayed at the lack of importance placed upon it within Baptist circles? I don't know if that can help make her realize what she's giving up ... Praying for you and your family, George.

Agreed. Apologies, George...as said before - you all are in our prayers

 

[SeventhValley]

Sounds to me like she was struggling with Orthodox Christianity for some unknown reason and looked elsewhere. Be patient and kind and she will find her way back.

 

[Tallguy88]

Cessation of miracles in the Baptist context generally means God still brings about miracles but in natural ways most of the time, although they believe that big flashy miracles do happen on occasion. The Baptist church my wife was baptized at had the elders anoint a woman with oil who had stage 4 brain cancer and the next day she went in for a check up and it disappeared. This is something usually only Pentecostal's do but Baptists will do it--just with extreme caution because they are afraid of falling into idolatry by anointing the sick too much(Baptists I have been around usually only anoint in small groups not around the congregation). Pentecostals will anoint whoever, whenever, and shout hallelujah and dance afterwards lol

All true, even the dancing lol. I was raised pentacostal, non denominational. I still believe in miracles, faith healing, the Holy Spirit leading/guiding people directly, etc.

My great great grandma cast a demon out of one of my relatives once. It said "I'll be back someday" and it was correct.

How could those things happen if there were no grace outside the visible institution of the Church?

 

[seashale76]

nm

 

[buzuxi02]

All true, even the dancing lol. I was raised pentacostal, non denominational. I still believe in miracles, faith healing, the Holy Spirit leading/guiding people directly, etc.

My great great grandma cast a demon out of one of my relatives once. It said "I'll be back someday" and it was correct.

How could those things happen if there were no grace outside the visible institution of the Church?

Even before the Holy Spirit was given certain people were casting out demons in Jesus name. The Lord told the disciples not to stop them, if they are for us, they are not against us. Now its also taught that some demons are not easily excorcised. I work with many hispanic immigrants. In their villages pentecostals abound who believe they can cast out demons. But when the individual is dangerous and pentecostal prayer ineffective they are sent to the roman catholics, who have the more "powerful books"and are baptised anew. But the situation is never reverse by their own admission. So what does that tell us?

But with healing why limit it to Jesus believers then? How about when a hindu swami heals? If there is one God, its the same that works in both. Now if Seventh description is accurate then it bolsters my point. He says in Baptist circles there is a soft belief in a cessation of miracles. But usually apart from the congregation the healing prayers take place. So they do it as individuals unconnected to the body they belong to. By its very design the Baptist body shuns it. So they are orphans, Paul says there is one Body but many members, each member having a different gift to offer. They are simply pious individuals which God grants mercy on, and if expedient will guide them to the Church where each individual member's gift will attain its goal and glorify the whole.

 

[prodromos]

In their villages pentecostals abound who believe they can cast out demons. But when the individual is dangerous and pentecostal prayer ineffective they are sent to the roman catholics, who have the more "powerful books"and are baptised anew. But the situation is never reverse by their own admission. So what does that tell us?

In the book about Fr Kosmas, Apostle to Zaire, it is said that the Catholic priests sent the dangerous demoniacs to the Orthodox Church for excorcism, because the Catholic priests often suffered terribly at the 'hands' of the demons they were trying to cast out.

 

[buzuxi02]

Foursquare, Springfield, non-denominational pentecostals its all greek to me. Should I ask how the sabellian 'Oneness pentecostals fit into all of this?

 

[All4Christ]

Foursquare, Springfield, non-denominational pentecostals its all greek to me. Should I ask how the sabellian 'Oneness pentecostals fit into all of this?

The majority of Pentecostals, including AoG, reject the oneness theology, and hold to the beliefs of the Trinity. I could go into the history of the Pentecostal development and theological differences between Pentecostal groups in more detail, as I studied it extensively during my search for the true faith (which eventually led me to Orthodoxy), as well as classes about the Pentecostals faith at my university, but would want to do so in a different thread.

Springfield is the location of the AoG headquarters / general council.

 

[SeventhValley]

George can you pm me a link to the churches web site so I can assist you more?

 

[George95]

George can you pm me a link to the churches web site so I can assist you more?

Which?

 

[ArmyMatt]

In the book about Fr Kosmas, Apostle to Zaire, it is said that the Catholic priests sent the dangerous demoniacs to the Orthodox Church for excorcism, because the Catholic priests often suffered terribly at the 'hands' of the demons they were trying to cast out.

I have been told from some of my Arab friends that Muslims in the Middle East and the Balkans will do the same thing.

 

[dzheremi]

This is apparently something of an open secret in Egypt. Foreigners have written about it in their books on the Coptic monasteries (e.g., Fr. Mark Gruber OSB "Return to Paradise" mentions this), and Coptic friends of mine have confirmed that Muslims will often go (quietly) to the monasteries in the desert when they are possessed. Apparently their Imams and Mullahs will not deal with this issue. Hmm. Also house visits are sometimes done by Coptic Orthodox priests at Muslims' requests if a person has died at home, in order to cleanse the house.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

Random question: Does the family of the young lady who was baptized attend Divine Liturgy regularly? Do they actually live near an Orthodox church? Can't her parents say, "While you are a minor you will attend Divine Liturgy with your family?"

 

[George95]

Yes, she lives near an Orthodox Church. However, her parents had a restaurant which prevented them from going, but they did go.

 

[Nik0s]

I have been told from some of my Arab friends that Muslims in the Middle East and the Balkans will do the same thing.

The same thing happens in Southern Italy, old "magna Graecia"

Considering the Greek history of Naples, it isn't surprising that one should find considerable amounts of Greek masonry beneath the city and in the outlying areas. It is, however, the little bits and pieces of "mental masonry"—less tangible fragments of Greekness in the history and customs of Naples—that fascinate the most. One such item, for example, is the simple fact that after the fall of the Roman Empire, under Justinian's brief unification of the eastern and western empires, Greek was again the language of Naples. A thousand years after it first reached these shores, Greek was for a brief time once again the language of official commerce, politics and religion. That last item, religion, has perhaps to do with another piece of Greekness still left in the city. The long history of the Greek Orthodox Church in Naples (item #3, below) and southern Italy, in general, has begotten the curious tradition of otherwise typical Roman Catholics calling upon the services of a Greek Orthodox priest to perform ritual blessings of newly built houses and even to ward off the "evil eye".
I know, personally, of two such cases. A friend of mine moved into a new house and simply called up the priest from the one Greek Orthodox church in Naples to come over and bless the place. Also, a woman I know was a librarian at one of the many university libraries in town. Books were disappearing. Whether that was due to simple mundane larceny or otherworldly book-fairies was irrelevant. She called the same church and got a young priest to come over and bless the library. Interestingly, he was aware of the custom, yet guarded in his willingness to muscle in on Roman Catholic turf. Nevertheless, he did as requested.
My friend's house is doing fine, but I never found out if the books were returned or, at least, stopped disappearing. That, of course, is not the point. In both cases, my friends simply shrugged off my "But-you're-a-Catholic" challenge. Everyone knows the Greeks have "something special".

Greeks in Naples & the Greek Orthodox Church

 

[buzuxi02]

This is apparently something of an open secret in Egypt. Foreigners have written about it in their books on the Coptic monasteries (e.g., Fr. Mark Gruber OSB "Return to Paradise" mentions this), and Coptic friends of mine have confirmed that Muslims will often go (quietly) to the monasteries in the desert when they are possessed. Apparently their Imams and Mullahs will not deal with this issue. Hmm. Also house visits are sometimes done by Coptic Orthodox priests at Muslims' requests if a person has died at home, in order to cleanse the house.

About a year ago a magazine had a major write up on christian/muslim relations in Syria andLebanon. I want to say it was Time magazine but dont remember. They wrote how its common for muslims to go to the christian churches light a candle and ask intercessory prayers of the saints. This was especially true for St. George. I remember that there was even a photo of it in the magazine.