EO & evolution

[truefiction1]

TF, you have openly said that in the event of conflict between the Tradition of the Church and modern science, that modern science has the power to correct the Church, clearly implying that theology and established dogma must be modified to fit what is seen as modern scientific truth.

You can't be received into the Church with that kind of attitude, and if you HAVE been received, you need to either admit that science has no power or authority over the teachings of the Church, which you accept, being the consensus of all who went before and constituting our Holy Tradition, or accept that you re not in communion with us. I don't think gzt, Greg, or any of the others would go so far as to say what you have said. That's why they are trying to synthesize the concepts and ignore the contradictions. That in itself is not heresy, just error. But from everything you've said, I have to say you've fallen into actual heresy.

No, I don't need to admit that science has no power or authority over the teachings of the Church, neither do I have to accept that the consensus of all those who went before as being what constitutes our Holy Tradition, nor do I have to admit to not being in communion with the Body of Christ. It is perfectly acceptable for any Christian to embrace the scientific theory of evolution and to, consequently, support an allegorical approach to understanding sacred writings. So neither Greg nor gzt are necessarily in error. Also, by assuming my own authority and acting upon it, I merely show myself to be authoritative, not heretical. Science can be mistaken and misused by evil people, but teachings of the Church can be mistaken, misinterpreted, and misused just as well. In such instances, the authorities are to be held accountable by those with the intestinal fortitude and leadership willingness to do so, just as we should even now be challenging the existing leadership to resolve this rampant, heretical phyletism that our sleeping hierarchy has caused by their own actions and inactions. If we're going to fight heresy, perhaps we might start there.

You wish that we all defer to authority, rather than using what we know to challenge it. Tell us, Rus, where has all this sacred butt kissing led to here in North America, where we now realize that an unchallenged authority quickly loses its ability to lead, and even turns corrupt? Perhaps I am misjudging you, but I feel that your strong insistence upon the need to defer to past understandings of the Church is just an attempt on your part to convince me to embrace masochism so that you can bask in your own sadistic pleasure. I love the Church just as you do. But to love the Church too much is to love oneself too much, and to lose sight of God. The Church is Divine, but it also consists of a strong human aspect. This means that if we turn a blind eye to the human (and therefore fallible) part of its past understandings, we have blown the Church up to be larger than God, and made the Bridegroom obedient to the bride. This we must not do.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Also, by assuming my own authority and acting upon it, I merely show myself to be authoritative, not heretical

there is not a saint I have read that would support this. what you are basically saying is that when it comes to the spiritual life, you are your own authority. that is the exact opposite of everything I have read concerning how one becomes a Christian. as much as I might disagree on this issue with Greg or gzt, neither have ever said that the Church is not THE authority that all Christians must submit to (and I know Greg personally).

 

[GregConstantine]

"That's why they are trying to synthesize the concepts and ignore the contradictions."

I am emphatically not trying to synthesize any concepts nor ignoring any contradictions. I tried to tell you, Gurneyhalick, Armymatt, jackstraw76 that one can utilize the principles of the theory of evolution if one is doing any type of research that calls for it, and that it is possible for an intelligent, capable human being to keep the ideas and principles of evolution separate from any ideologies and philosophies that are contraray to Orthodoxy and and reject them. And I also said that if one is not engaging in such research that it (evolution) doesn't really impact our day to day life. I'm sorry if this insults you guys intelligence, but everyone else I've talked to understands exactly what I am saying except you guys.

Please do not label me a pro-evolutionist nor say I am attempting to synthesize or ignoring things.

I have stood up for Orthodoxy time and time again at one of our local universities and have been ridiculed for doing so.

I resent you guys doing this so please stop it!

You simply cannot make such a judgment by reading comments on a discussion forum, shame on you!

This is my last comment on this ridiculous, immature forum. Goodbye

gzt, if you wish to stay in touch with me, feel free to pm me

 

[ArmyMatt]

I tried to tell you, Gurneyhalick, Armymatt, jackstraw76 that one can utilize the principles of the theory of evolution if one is doing any type of research that calls for it, and that it is possible for an intelligent, capable human being to keep the ideas and principles of evolution separate from any ideologies and philosophies that are contraray to Orthodoxy and and reject them.

and I asked you earlier, if one's job calls for it, like a politician, is is possible to back a law for gay marriage if one's constituents call for it, keep the principles of that kind of free expression separate from any ideologies and philosophies contrary to Orthodoxy and reject them? I get what you are saying Greg, I just disagree.

 

[truefiction1]

there is not a saint I have read that would support this. what you are basically saying is that when it comes to the spiritual life, you are your own authority. that is the exact opposite of everything I have read concerning how one becomes a Christian. as much as I might disagree on this issue with Greg or gzt, neither have ever said that the Church is not THE authority that all Christians must submit to (and I know Greg personally).

Not so, as Paul was intent on describing how and why it was that he withstood Peter himself, to his very face. Now we would not say that Paul was lacking in humility. We would say that he was exercising his authority when he needed to. Paul knew who he was. I know who I am. Also, spiritual authority is not always the authority in scientific concerns.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not so, as Paul was intent on describing how and why it was that he withstood Peter himself, to his very face. Now we would not say that Paul was lacking in humility. We would say that he was exercising his authority when he needed to. Paul knew who he was. I know who I am.

again, that was (and this is like the Photian example from earlier), it was St Peter who departed from the Church's teaching concerning Gentiles. you are taking Peter's side, not Paul's.

 

[truefiction1]

again, that was (and this is like the Photian example from earlier), it was St Peter who departed from the Church's teaching concerning Gentiles. you are taking Peter's side, not Paul's.

Not so. I am taking MY side, not Peter's, and not Paul's. I know who I am and what my responsibility is, just as they both did, and just as Christ did. We each have our one unique callings, and Paul's forced him to disagree with Peter, because when it came to the ministry to the gentiles, Paul was the authority, not Peter, even though Peter was the head of the Church. I am not departing from the Church's teaching concerning evolution, because there really isn't one yet, in spite of your claims to the contrary. I am doing what I was born to do: defending the knowledge of the "miraculous in and of itself" means that God has most brilliantly designed as the natural process by which all of created life comes to be what it is. The knowledge of these processes bares witness to the existence and awesomeness of our creator, and we are indeed blessed to have discovered them, not only for the knowledge itself but also for the blessings it could bring to us and to our children. Where you see only evil, I see good. This is not an angel of light thing either, so please don't go there with that sort of pious paranoia. Evolution is not a heresy. It is sound science. I don't insist that you accept this scientific theory. But I strongly support those Orthodox Christians who do accept it, and must defend it with all of my strength and with my very life, if it should ever come to that, because I know that this knowledge is from God, though I do not know what will happen as a result of it. None of us ever really do.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

wow.....

"That's why they are trying to synthesize the concepts and ignore the contradictions."

I am emphatically not trying to synthesize any concepts nor ignoring any contradictions. I tried to tell you, Gurneyhalick, Armymatt, jackstraw76 that one can utilize the principles of the theory of evolution if one is doing any type of research that calls for it, and that it is possible for an intelligent, capable human being to keep the ideas and principles of evolution separate from any ideologies and philosophies that are contraray to Orthodoxy and and reject them. And I also said that if one is not engaging in such research that it (evolution) doesn't really impact our day to day life. I'm sorry if this insults you guys intelligence, but everyone else I've talked to understands exactly what I am saying except you guys.

Please do not label me a pro-evolutionist nor say I am attempting to synthesize or ignoring things.

I have stood up for Orthodoxy time and time again at one of our local universities and have been ridiculed for doing so.

I resent you guys doing this so please stop it!

You simply cannot make such a judgment by reading comments on a discussion forum, shame on you!

This is my last comment on this ridiculous, immature forum. Goodbye

gzt, if you wish to stay in touch with me, feel free to pm me

 

[jckstraw72]

I'm sorry if this insults you guys intelligence, but everyone else I've talked to understands exactly what I am saying except you guys.

perhaps you took the time to explain it to them.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It's frustrating to me that people cannot join the Holy Orthodox Church and let it change them rather then have their own sensibilities try to change the Church Herself. Why is it so hard to accept that evolution isn't really Orthodox? Why is it such a stretch to grasp the fact that the saints before Darwin and post Darwin don't buy it? There are probably some fringe priests out there who accept the teaching, maybe even a bishop somewhere, but the vast, overwhelming majority reject it or consider it crass and un-Orthodox. Why must we seek to put Orthodoxy into a science box rather than try to put science into an Orthodox context? And why get so angry when Orthodox posters merely lay out the facts as the Fathers and great Saints of the Church have presented them? We've seen people fiercely arguing a pro-evolution argument only to get mad at being called "pro-evolution" as if it were some kind of F-bomb slur? If I were pro-evolution, bought into it, or at least had an open mind to it, I'd be fine with the moniker. Then we've had pro-evolution folks dump the 'yeah, I bet you're getting this nonsense thinking of yours from Father Seraphim Rose!' speculation down. That was odd. Then things have gotten personal, nasty, and extremely defensive.

I came on TAW a year ago in the mindset of being in favor of evolution. I asked people's opinions. I had the "you must be anti-science!" thing going on when anyone differed with me. Thanks be to God posters like Rus, Jesse, Matt, and several others were patient with me and kind, stuck to the facts as they have here, and I prayed about it. I read up, meditated on all I found, and I have serious trouble supporting evolution today. Like Rus, I admit the 'possibility' is there, albeit remote, but I was open-minded to the fact that I just might be wrong. I opened my heart to allowing Orthodoxy to overshadow my own ego a bit.

These threads usually start as a "what say you?" just asking people to chime in and give their opinions backed with evidence. What develops is the pro-evolution folks putting together sketchy theories with very few sources to back it up and next to ZERO Church support statements. They have very little to go on.....then there is the traditionalist Creationist crowd who throws out heaps and heaps of statements by the Church, the Fathers, saints, you name it that contradict evolution. The burden of proof is on the moderns to prove it, and they summarily fail each time. After the failed debate ensues, nastiness, barbs, and "I'm outta here!" statement arrive.

It's sad that we can't be theologically intellectually honest here and things must always get personal on this topic.

 

[rusmeister]

Gurney summed it up well enough.
If you support something, you are "pro"-it (Latin for " for it").
If . anyone takes comments I direct toward ideas as directed toward them personally, then I will stop talking to them, because I don't want them to take offense. But it means that I perforce have to ignore their arguments.

I've read next to nothing by Fr Seraphim Rose. About as much as many have read of Chesterton. I get that his view lines up with the fathers in general. My own views can't be said to be influenced by his, though.

I think I understand everything Greg, gzt, and TF have said. I understand and disagree. I admit there may be nuances where they do not agree among themselves, but the general line is common to all and that is what I largely speak to.

that people cannot join the Holy Orthodox Church and let it change them rather then have their own sensibilities try to change the Church Herself.

QFT

 

[gzt]

Why is it so hard to accept that evolution isn't really Orthodox?

I think you're going significantly beyond your warrant to assert this. Why is it hard to accept? Because it's false. Have your synod call me when it decrees that evolution isn't Orthodox. I'll keep the line open.

 

[Kristos]

It's frustrating to me that people cannot join the Holy Orthodox Church and let it change them rather then have their own sensibilities try to change the Church Herself. Why is it so hard to accept that evolution isn't really Orthodox? Why is it such a stretch to grasp the fact that the saints before Darwin and post Darwin don't buy it? There are probably some fringe priests out there who accept the teaching, maybe even a bishop somewhere, but the vast, overwhelming majority reject it or consider it crass and un-Orthodox. Why must we seek to put Orthodoxy into a science box rather than try to put science into an Orthodox context? And why get so angry when Orthodox posters merely lay out the facts as the Fathers and great Saints of the Church have presented them? We've seen people fiercely arguing a pro-evolution argument only to get mad at being called "pro-evolution" as if it were some kind of F-bomb slur? If I were pro-evolution, bought into it, or at least had an open mind to it, I'd be fine with the moniker. Then we've had pro-evolution folks dump the 'yeah, I bet you're getting this nonsense thinking of yours from Father Seraphim Rose!' speculation down. That was odd. Then things have gotten personal, nasty, and extremely defensive.

I came on TAW a year ago in the mindset of being in favor of evolution. I asked people's opinions. I had the "you must be anti-science!" thing going on when anyone differed with me. Thanks be to God posters like Rus, Jesse, Matt, and several others were patient with me and kind, stuck to the facts as they have here, and I prayed about it. I read up, meditated on all I found, and I have serious trouble supporting evolution today. Like Rus, I admit the 'possibility' is there, albeit remote, but I was open-minded to the fact that I just might be wrong. I opened my heart to allowing Orthodoxy to overshadow my own ego a bit.

These threads usually start as a "what say you?" just asking people to chime in and give their opinions backed with evidence. What develops is the pro-evolution folks putting together sketchy theories with very few sources to back it up and next to ZERO Church support statements. They have very little to go on.....then there is the traditionalist Creationist crowd who throws out heaps and heaps of statements by the Church, the Fathers, saints, you name it that contradict evolution. The burden of proof is on the moderns to prove it, and they summarily fail each time. After the failed debate ensues, nastiness, barbs, and "I'm outta here!" statement arrive.

It's sad that we can't be theologically intellectually honest here and things must always get personal on this topic.

Funny - I could basically take your entire post and replace "evolutionist" with "YEC" and find it more accurate. The difficulty you and others here seem to have continues to be your presuppositions; which are inherently modern and intrinsically material. You read scripture in this mode and see it through this lens, and not surprisingly you read the fathers in a similar fashion. I gave a good reading list from the fathers earlier in this thread, and just to set my mind at ease I re-read several of them this past week just to make sure my memory hasn't faltered - it hasn't. On the view of Orthodoxy concerning "evolution" I suggest the somewhat long winded series on Darwin by Fr Thomas Hopko. I think it's about 15 hours long if you listen to them all, but he covers all sides of the issue. On the concept of God, and why "YEC" is essentially incompatible with it, I suggest David Bentley Hart's "The Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss". Both are Orthodox, both are respected scholars and both cover the issues fairly comprehensively without cherry picking or taking their sources out of context - and yes, I do check sources when I can get my hands on them.

 

[rusmeister]

Not so. I am taking MY side, not Peter's, and not Paul's. I know who I am and what my responsibility is, just as they both did, and just as Christ did. We each have our one unique callings, and Paul's forced him to disagree with Peter, because when it came to the ministry to the gentiles, Paul was the authority, not Peter, even though Peter was the head of the Church. I am not departing from the Church's teaching concerning evolution, because there really isn't one yet, in spite of your claims to the contrary. I am doing what I was born to do: defending the knowledge of the "miraculous in and of itself" means that God has most brilliantly designed as the natural process by which all of created life comes to be what it is. The knowledge of these processes bares witness to the existence and awesomeness of our creator, and we are indeed blessed to have discovered them, not only for the knowledge itself but also for the blessings it could bring to us and to our children. Where you see only evil, I see good. This is not an angel of light thing either, so please don't go there with that sort of pious paranoia. Evolution is not a heresy. It is sound science. I don't insist that you accept this scientific theory. But I strongly support those Orthodox Christians who do accept it, and must defend it with all of my strength and with my very life, if it should ever come to that, because I know that this knowledge is from God, though I do not know what will happen as a result of it. None of us ever really do.

TF, I'm not saying another WORD to you about evolution. It simply is not the issue. The issue, and the undeniably heretical attitude (given that a blind man can deny light and a foolish person anything and everything) is your attitude owrd Church authority. You make yourself your own authority; effectively your own god and your own church. YOU are the measure of all things; what teachings you will accept and which you will not. I think gzt and Greg would accept reproof from their hierarchs should they be given; certainly a consensus of them. You (by your words and position) will not.

Obedience is one of the great virtues. You are not Paul, or Peter, or Maximus the Confessor. You, like me, are just a little fellow in the wide world. And the Tradition of the Church must be accepted. Again, if you sincerely seek the priesthood, I challenge you to express your attitude toward Church authority to your bishop as you have done here. Forget evolution. The issue is whether the Tradition of the Church may correct you and tell you you are wrong or not.

 

[gzt]

Part of the issue going the other way is that you folk are very eager to lay the hammer down and say that we are, simply put, not being Orthodox.

 

[truefiction1]

TF, I'm not saying another WORD to you about evolution. It simply is not the issue. The issue, and the undeniably heretical attitude (given that a blind man can deny light and a foolish person anything and everything) is your attitude owrd Church authority. You make yourself your own authority; effectively your own god and your own church. YOU are the measure of all things; what teachings you will accept and which you will not. I think gzt and Greg would accept reproof from their hierarchs should they be given; certainly a consensus of them. You (by your words and position) will not.

Obedience is one of the great virtues. You are not Paul, or Peter, or Maximus the Confessor. You, like me, are just a little fellow in the wide world. And the Tradition of the Church must be accepted. Again, if you sincerely seek the priesthood, I challenge you to express your attitude toward Church authority to your bishop as you have done here. Forget evolution. The issue is whether the Tradition of the Church may correct you and tell you you are wrong or not.

He that chooses to humbly submit to any authority has chosen that authority to be his master, and hence the core self is the only authority that one ultimately submits to even in masochistic submission to someone else. This is the fact of existence that cannot be escaped from, only hidden from. Freedom is, whether we can stand to live free or not. I understand obedience, but what you wish for me to do is to check freedom at the door of the Church, to relinquish personal responsibility, which is to live according to falsehood instead of freedom. Paul, Peter, and Maximus were just little fellows in the wide world, just like you and me. They learned about freedom and then they obeyed freedom, opening their arms to embrace the life that was their and theirs alone to fulfill, stretching them out like Christ on the cross in order to live life fully, not shrinking back from the pain and suffering that living freely as one's true self always requires. They believed Christ and freely chose to follow Him from one moment of their lives to the next. But they did not relinquish their freedom in doing so, they fulfilled that freedom by doing so.

But the real issue here, for me, is evolution and not authority. Authority would become an issue if I were doing something wrong. But I am not doing anything wrong by accepting evolution, along with an allegorical approach to understanding the creation narratives. On the contrary, I am obeying God's will, by my own free choice, and accepting whatever comes because of it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'm not hearing that. No hammers of Thor. But what I have heard is this said over and over:

a) The Orthodox Church has no official teaching on evolution
b) There are no saints or Fathers who say anything that remotely could fit with the paradigm of evolution
c) There are practically no saints or great divines of the Church who have said anything pro-evolution post Darwin
d) You are welcome to believe in evolution because the Church hasn't decreed anything official on it
e) It is a poorly-supported theory that doesn't fit well with patristic teachings or the Orthodox concept of death beginning in the Garden and being defeated by Christ.

So I've heard A to E, but never "out of the Orthodox Church, heretic!" I haven't heard that. I have heard Rus comment on a poster's poor approach to authority, but never that anyone isn't Orthodox or should hit the bricks.

What am I missing here? Seems pretty honest, charitable, yet disagreement done right.

However I do keep hearing this from the other side:

a) You traditionalist Creationists are anti-science
b) You Creationists are insulting us
c) You Creationists are Young-Earthers
d) Authority in the Church is great, but we don't need their ok to vouch for evolution, just listen to the scientists and common sense
e.) We've been called "immature"


Again, I must be missing something...

Part of the issue going the other way is that you folk are very eager to lay the hammer down and say that we are, simply put, not being Orthodox.

 

[Dorothea]

We each have our one unique callings, and Paul's forced him to disagree with Peter, because when it came to the ministry to the gentiles, Paul was the authority, not Peter, even though Peter was the head of the Church.

Peter wasn't the head of the Church.

 

[rusmeister]

Peter wasn't the head of the Church.

Thank you!

I have a general question for everybody:

Can one say "No, I don't need to admit that science has no power or authority over the teachings of the Church, neither do I have to accept that the consensus of all those who went before as being what constitutes our Holy Tradition" and be received and in communion with the Orthodox Church?

I could post this in a separate thread, but I'm especially interested in the opinions of Kristos, gzt and Greg.

To my mind this goes to the heart of what it means to be Orthodox.

 

[rusmeister]

Duplicate post