energy?

Henri

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Hello,

I am trying to understand the essence-energy distinction. My questions are :

1) What exactly is divine energy? I know that it is God's action or activity. But more precisely? For example, to will is an action. So can we say that the will of God is part of his energy?

2) Is it true that, according to orthodox theology, creatures are made (at least partially) of God's energy?

Thanks in advance for your answers.
 

Lukaris

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St. Gregory resolves this enigma by distinguishing between the essence of God, which cannot be beholden, versus the effects that derive from His essence, that is to say His energy, which can be seen. To use St. Gregory's words: "...knowledge of the Divine essence is inaccessible to thought.... For He is invisible by nature, but becomes visible in His energies, for He may be contemplated in the things that are referred to Him."

above quoted from St. Gregory of Nyssa, from: Smart Parenting XX + Applying Christ's Beatitudes to Parenting: Blessed Are the Pure of Heart for They Shall See God | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
 
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Cappadocious

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So can we say that the will of God is part of his energy?
God's will, foreknowledge, and creative power are examples of Divine Energies, per St. Gregory Palamas, The One Hundred and Fifty Chapters, capita 100-102.

Is it true that, according to orthodox theology, creatures are made (at least partially) of God's energy?

Made as in created by? Yes. Made as in composed of? No.
 
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Henri

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God's will, foreknowledge, and creative power are examples of Divine Energies, per St. Gregory Palamas, The One Hundred and Fifty Chapters, capita 100-102.

Thanks. But is there a way to know which attribute of God is part of his energy, and which not? Is there a list? Can you give me a link for The One Hundred and Fifty Chapters (because it seems difficult to find)?

Made as in created by? Yes. Made as in composed of? No.

That's what I thought. However, I read that the essence-energy distinction was necessary in order to save God's transcendence (i.e., his essence remains safe from a blend with creatures). But if his energy is not in a blend with creatures either, why the distinction essence-energy is still necessary?
 
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Lukaris

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Thanks. But is there a way to know which attribute of God is part of his energy, and which not? Is there a list? Can you give me a link for The One Hundred and Fifty Chapters (because it seems difficult to find)?



That's what I thought. However, I read that the essence-energy distinction was necessary in order to save God's transcendence (i.e., his essence remains safe from a blend with creatures). But if his energy is not in a blend with creatures either, why the distinction essence-energy is still necessary?

From what I understand no person can participate in God's essence and that there was a movement called Messalians (14th c.) who said that very thing.
A major example of participating in the uncreated divine light is the Lord's transfiguration (Matthew 17 etc.) before Peter, James, & John. They did not participate in His essence but were energized by grace of what they received & participated in the energies of the uncreated light of the Transfiguration. St. Gregory Palamas notes that this is a foretaste of the light of those who are saved and will live in the heavenly Jerusalem (Revelation 21:23) which "city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamb is the light thereof." (St. Gregory Palamas on the Transfiguration) from a collection of sermons in: The Saving Work of Christ: Sermons by Saint Gregory Palamas

The chapters from St. Gregory Palamas you seek are from vol. 4 of the Philokalia writings of various saints & theologians & can be read online. His writings begin on the online page 1136 out of 1246 online pages. The ebook is free & downloads pretty fast (this link should be direct) see: https://archive.org/stream/Philokalia-TheCompleteText/Philokalia-Complete-Text#page/n1135/mode/2up
 
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ArmyMatt

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That's what I thought. However, I read that the essence-energy distinction was necessary in order to save God's transcendence (i.e., his essence remains safe from a blend with creatures). But if his energy is not in a blend with creatures either, why the distinction essence-energy is still necessary?

well, they don't blend with creatures since His energies are eternal and uncreated, and we are temporal and created. we do, however, participate in them. the energies fill us and eternally draw us closer to God, but we never actually merge with Him. iron in a fire will take on the properties of fire by being in the fire (gives light and heat, turns orange, etc) but will never actually become fire. the iron must also remain in the fire to maintain those properties.
 
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Cappadocious

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Thanks. But is there a way to know which attribute of God is part of his energy, and which not? Is there a list?
There isn't an exhaustive list; we can't even give an exhaustive list of human activities, after all! How could we do so for God?

Can you give me a link for The One Hundred and Fifty Chapters (because it seems difficult to find)?
https://books.google.com/books?id=hS5LJkFMdOIC&pg=PR1&lpg=PR1&dq=one+hundred+and+fifty+chapter+sinkewicz&source=bl&ots=pQ27PvjI--&sig=jmXPjlFzYcyhzjd_6Zu9oB2dpWA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HYg9Vb-GIdfsoASa0IGgDA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=one%20hundred%20and%20fifty%20chapter%20sinkewicz&f=false

That's what I thought. However, I read that the essence-energy distinction was necessary in order to save God's transcendence
More so, it was necessary to preserve God's presence in the world, and his real interaction with creatures, from those who said that God could not directly interact with creatures.

These heretics said that God's anger, love, forbearance, etc., along with all his mighty acts, were mere metaphors or creations of God, not believing that they were true uncreated activities of God Himself.
 
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katerinah1947

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Hello,

I am trying to understand the essence-energy distinction. My questions are :

1) What exactly is divine energy? I know that it is God's action or activity. But more precisely? For example, to will is an action. So can we say that the will of God is part of his energy?

2) Is it true that, according to orthodox theology, creatures are made (at least partially) of God's energy?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Hi,
I am qualified to answer part of this. Does the fact that I am also Catholic disqualify me from giving you this answer, in layman's terms? After all this is an Eastern Orthodox site, what ever that means.
What I find fascinating is your even knowing a term such as energy that applies to God. Never have I seen this before in any other place.
The second thing that thrills me is your question of, whether or not it is true that creatures are made of engergy, and in this case God's energy. Yes, I know the answer to that also, but again, I am Catholic.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hi,
I am qualified to answer part of this. Does the fact that I am also Catholic disqualify me from giving you this answer, in layman's terms? After all this is an Eastern Orthodox site, what ever that means.
What I find fascinating is your even knowing a term such as energy that applies to God. Never have I seen this before in any other place.
The second thing that thrills me is your question of, whether or not it is true that creatures are made of engergy, and in this case God's energy. Yes, I know the answer to that also, but again, I am Catholic.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

Welcome, Katie. :)

Yes, this part of CF is TAW - it is a congregational subforum for Eastern Orthodox. We do have others who post here, and have several Catholics that are very welcome.

As Orthodox, we certainly speak of God's essence and energies. It is a very important part of how we speak about God, so I'm not surprised to see someone ask.

I don't know what the Catholic teaching is, precisely, but I do think there are some differences between what Catholics teach and what Orthodox believe.

Technically - the rules state that non-Orthodox are not supposed to teach or debate within this particular area, but as long as folks behave within reason (and sadly sometimes when they don't), you will find the Orthodox to be very easy to get along with.

It is good that you state that your views would be Catholic.

I'll let the others help you decide what's allowed - I'll just be the welcome wagon. :)
 
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katerinah1947

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Welcome, Katie. :)

Yes, this part of CF is TAW - it is a congregational subforum for Eastern Orthodox. We do have others who post here, and have several Catholics that are very welcome.

As Orthodox, we certainly speak of God's essence and energies. It is a very important part of how we speak about God, so I'm not surprised to see someone ask.

I don't know what the Catholic teaching is, precisely, but I do think there are some differences between what Catholics teach and what Orthodox believe.

Technically - the rules state that non-Orthodox are not supposed to teach or debate within this particular area, but as long as folks behave within reason (and sadly sometimes when they don't), you will find the Orthodox to be very easy to get along with.

It is good that you state that your views would be Catholic.

I'll let the others help you decide what's allowed - I'll just be the welcome wagon. :)

Hi,
My views are not strictly Catholic. I may have stated that poorly. What I would be able to say, if allowed, would be what I know from my personal One on One, God encounters.
As you might know in Catholicism that sort of thing, is not normal. They have in fact told me, that what I went through is verified, but using the Bible Fleece type of test.
I do not push Catholic Theology. I also disagree with little in Catholic Theology. I wish not to discuss where they and I disagree, but rather where they and I agree.
Yet, I have that same position with most religions. I have areas, of expertise usually, and when that conflicts, I let them know.
Please do not think, I am here to push a Catholic Agenda. God just met me one day, in His Essence, and some other things. What I was left with is a very good understanding of God, that even improved, but changed nothing this morning.
So, I know the answers to your questions, but I am technically not allowed to post what those answers are here, without permissions, so I didn't.
I would also have to frame those answers to not only not teach, which for me is a request by God to me, but merely share what I have had to learn, and I would have to not push any doctrine at all.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... ..
 
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Henri

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God just met me one day, in His Essence, and some other things. What I was left with is a very good understanding of God, that even improved, but changed nothing this morning.
So, I know the answers to your questions, but I am technically not allowed to post what those answers are here, without permissions, so I didn't.

Well if you say that you saw the essence of God I am of course more than skeptical. But anyway, if it is kind of secret or something you don't want to say publicly you can send me a private message.
 
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Henri

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From what I understand no person can participate in God's essence and that there was a movement called Messalians (14th c.) who said that very thing.
A major example of participating in the uncreated divine light is the Lord's transfiguration (Matthew 17 etc.) before Peter, James, & John. They did not participate in His essence but were energized by grace of what they received & participated in the energies of the uncreated light of the Transfiguration. St. Gregory Palamas notes that this is a foretaste of the light of those who are saved and will live in the heavenly Jerusalem (Revelation 21:23) which "city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamb is the light thereof." (St. Gregory Palamas on the Transfiguration) from a collection of sermons in: The Saving Work of Christ: Sermons by Saint Gregory Palamas

The chapters from St. Gregory Palamas you seek are from vol. 4 of the Philokalia writings of various saints & theologians & can be read online. His writings begin on the online page 1136 out of 1246 online pages. The ebook is free & downloads pretty fast (this link should be direct) see: https://archive.org/stream/Philokali...n1135/mode/2up

Thanks!

There isn't an exhaustive list; we can't even give an exhaustive list of human activities, after all! How could we do so for God?

Ok, but what are the attributes that belong only to his essence? Can you give me an example? Maybe simplicity, or immutabilty?
https://archive.org/stream/Philokalia-TheCompleteText/Philokalia-Complete-Text#page/n1135/mode/2up
 
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Cappadocious

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Ok, but what are the attributes that belong only to his essence? Can you give me an example? Maybe simplicity, or immutabilty?
Immutability is a weird attribute, because it is a negative attribute, the attribute of not changing. If change is an activity, then immutability is simply lacking this activity.

Properties are a thorny issue in philosophical theology and I would be wary of giving any "sure" account of how that works.

As for simplicity, this doesn't seem like an activity in the Aristotelian sense. Is "being simple" something you do?
 
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Lukaris

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Thanks!



Ok, but what are the attributes that belong only to his essence? Can you give me an example? Maybe simplicity, or immutabilty?
https://archive.org/stream/Philokalia-TheCompleteText/Philokalia-Complete-Text#page/n1135/mode/2up

Yes, this doctrine is defined by St. Peter in 2nd Peter 1 in the aspect that by grace we are partakers of blessings we receive from it. So in the attributes of Divine Essence, such as godliness and glory, we are partakers in virtues, brotherly love, kindness etc. as I have highlighted below. St. Peter sums this up 2 Peter 3:18.

2 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

Greeting the Faithful

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Fruitful Growth in the Faith

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peter’s Approaching Death

12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

The Trustworthy Prophetic Word

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit

In summation:

2 Peter 3:18New King James Version (NKJV)

18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
 
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katerinah1947

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Well if you say that you saw the essence of God I am of course more than skeptical. But anyway, if it is kind of secret or something you don't want to say publicly you can send me a private message.

Hi,
This is no secret. You should be skeptical. Is it not demanded of us to test all things.
The poster asked a few questions. I deal with each member of the Trinity individualy at times. The energy statement here was most pleasing to me. I have never ever seen anyone talk like that.
The question of are we made of some part of God, as God is enerygy seemed interesting to me too.
When I deal and have dealt with God, both of those issues I had to eventually understand. And of what importance they are to you, I can only imagine.
The question seems to be what is Divine Energy and what are we made of, in terms of that Divine Energy.
I would like to tell you of this, and take that answer totally out of any theological view. I would like to tell you that not from a Protestant, and not from a Catholic view, also not from a Jewish view nor an Eastern Orthodox view, whatever that means. (I don't want to look it up this minute.) I would like to, but I probably can't. As the calling for this was every bit from the mother of The God of the Christians, whom I resisted. The calling seemed so hard to follow. I did though. The second time I did what I was requested to do, but really kicking and screaming and resisting, plus doing the absolute minimum to keep God from being upset with me. On the second calling. I eventually was shown in words what I was being called for. A GIFT. That helped for awhile. Still when I got there, I was skeptical except in my calling. On day one, while there, I was doing an activity solo and got lost in the dark. I then said: "If you want me to be here, you had better......." Instantly lights, human lights in a flashlight I saw in the distance. Those people were on the trail people used at this site.
I was still skeptical. I was continuously skeptical. One day I received my gift. I was done. My thoughts then were this: "I have done my minimums. God can no longer be upset with me. I can now 'pardy hardy'" I had done my minimum requirements for God to keep God from being so upset with me, that I deserved a punishment. I am this point 10,000 miles from my home. I would then go home. I was extremely pleased with my gift, as Mary The Mother of Jesus, The Mother of God, had called me about 10,000 miles twice to give me this small gift that was being passed out to everyone in that room.
Before this happened, I was still skeptical. During this talk, baskets came out. I was sure then. I had been fooled. It is not the first time, and I was so happy that I did not tell almost anyone at home that I would be gone for two weeks. I also told no one at home or any place else what I was doing. Besides, how can you tell anyone that Mary and now with God helping her, is calling me to go to a foreign country? That is the stuff, insane people say, or decieved people say. This stuff just isn't real. It doesn't happen. Now, I a scientist of sorts, am being asked to go to a foreign country on a feeling and more, but it was the feeling that started all of this. Scientists, just don't do things on a feeling. However, I was missing all the indications then. This was no mere feeling. It was more.
Well after being totally calm and now being able to 'pardy hardy', never noticing till until years later that 'pardy hardy' meant more church time and more prayer time to me there, the gift giving was not over. There were hands being put on people, then this would be over and I could 'pardy hardy'. I had resisted the gift. I did not want it, even from the man who was giving out these gifts to everyone. I also did not speak his language. When the hand laying part came, from this probable priest, I was annoyed. Yet another wait. I am done. The time is my own. Hopefully this would not take long. I had been through this many times before, so I knew it would not take that long. It became my turn and the woman next to me, her turn. He put his right hand on her, he did not put his right hand on my head. I freaked. I had many internal thoughts, most of them about the true nature of my internal self. I know what I am inside. I thought that he knew somehow. I just knew, that he knew. I knew that he would not put his hand on my head because I am that bad. I am too bad to have a priest put his hand on me. Only that is not what happened. Eventually, I think two hands are placed upon my head. Nothing ever happens remember. No one ever gets healed, and this practice has been going on for years and years. It is just something we all put up with. As, I think I remember he puts his two hands upon me, soon God The Essence of God replaces this man. All is dark except for God. I look I feel I know what I am seeing and even the dark is white, but compared to God is is almost black, but a pleasant black because it is actually white. I am made known somehow one thing. Do not touch it is sacrilgeous. No. I heard no words. It was just instantly known. Eventually The Essence of God lessened and I could no longer see Him, (Father Son and Holy Spirit), but I knew where they were. In anguish now, I looked over to where they were, "You can't leave me like this. You can't" I was in anguish. How could I have seen God, and now have to be left here on this planet. How. (I didn't realize it till years and years later. I fell in love with God, just by seeing Him in the form of His Essence.) I forgot to say. I did try to touch. I was punished. I felt the power of God scare me away. I felt the joy. I saw the joy. Only, it took much time to realize that.
What happened though later and then later, allowed me slowly to understand how God is. I was merely saying, and now in the scientific fashion, I think I know the answers to your questions on engergy and are we made of that energy or not.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .
 
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curiouskay

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I believe there is still one weak link in our energy future and that is battery storage. Wind turbines are great when the wind is blowing but unfortunately it does not always blow.

I envision you pull up to a filling station but instead of filling your tank with gas you stop over a exchange unit where your battery located under your car is removed and a charged one is installed. This gives you enough power to drive 150 miles before getting a recharged battery.

i.e. future battery technologies are the key to our future


upload_2017-7-28_10-35-17.png



There must be an easier way to cause this reaction. I think it is in the realm of frequencies. If we can find and duplicate this frequency we can create perpetual energy; in my view
clip_image002.png
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ArmyMatt

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I believe there is still one weak link in our energy future and that is battery storage. Wind turbines are great when the wind is blowing but unfortunately it does not always blow.

I envision you pull up to a filling station but instead of filling your tank with gas you stop over a exchange unit where your battery located under your car is removed and a charged one is installed. This gives you enough power to drive 150 miles before getting a recharged battery.

i.e. future battery technologies are the key to our future


View attachment 202833


There must be an easier way to cause this reaction. I think it is in the realm of frequencies. If we can find and duplicate this frequency we can create perpetual energy; in my view
clip_image002.png
-

what?
 
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~Anastasia~

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I believe there is still one weak link in our energy future and that is battery storage. Wind turbines are great when the wind is blowing but unfortunately it does not always blow.

I envision you pull up to a filling station but instead of filling your tank with gas you stop over a exchange unit where your battery located under your car is removed and a charged one is installed. This gives you enough power to drive 150 miles before getting a recharged battery.

i.e. future battery technologies are the key to our future


View attachment 202833


There must be an easier way to cause this reaction. I think it is in the realm of frequencies. If we can find and duplicate this frequency we can create perpetual energy; in my view
clip_image002.png
-
Hello curiouskay, and welcome to CF and to TAW.

I fear you've misunderstood our theological term "energy" ... but I pray you are blessed by being on the forums. If you ever have questions or need help finding your way around, please feel free to ask. :)

Again, welcome. :)
 
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