Election Systems

Which system would you prefer?

  • Our current FPTP system

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4
  • Poll closed .

ThatRobGuy

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I originally posted this as a response to someone in another thread...however, after thinking about it, I thought it might stand up as an interesting discussion point on its own. Both videos are well worth the time of viewing. (~10 mins total viewing time between both videos)



Any takers?
 
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super animator

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I originally posted this as a response to someone in another thread...however, after thinking about it, I thought it might stand up as an interesting discussion point on its own. Both videos are well worth the time of viewing. (~10 mins total viewing time between both videos)



Any takers?
Why haven't we implemented this yet? Oh wait, I think I answer my own question....
 
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Oafman

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Great. So all you need to do now is convince the representatives of the 2 powerful parties, which currently compete for power between them, to open up the system to greater competition from small parties. Good luck!

In the UK we had a national referendum a few years ago, which strongly rejected AV. We got this because in 2010 neither of the two main parties secured enough representatives to hold a majority in parliamentary votes, necessitating the larger of the two to team up with a 3rd smaller party to construct a majority. The smaller party's terms for entering this coalition were that a referendum must be put to the people suggesting a more fair voting system, and we were offered AV.

But, in reaching a coalition agreement, the 3rd party abandoned a number of its pre-election principles, and lost a good deal of respect and public opinion. This, combined with the fact that many people did not understand the AV offer, and why it was needed, resulted in the no vote.

Then we had an election earlier this year, and it gave us our least representative government ever, including one party getting 13% of all votes nationally, which translated into 0.2% of the seats in parliament! So, against the wishes of the 2 main parties, electoral reform is already being discussed again, so soon after the referendum.

CPGrey made another excellent video explaining how this unrepresentative result happened:

 
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ThatRobGuy

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I'm inclined to like the alternative vote system. It's worth a try, what we have now is a disaster. The alternative at least will cause voters to think. Perchance to dream?

I'd like to see it happen, however, I fear the only way it could happen is if we had another Ross Perot who had the kind of juice to play their game for at least one election cycle to get in and encourage the change to happen. As it stands right now, there's no one stepping up to that task.

While it was exciting to see Gary Johnson get the best turnout of any libertarian candidate (tripled what anyone else from the party got), it still only amounted to roughly ~2% of the popular vote and that's even scratching the surface of what it would take.
 
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stamperben

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I'd like to see it happen, however, I fear the only way it could happen is if we had another Ross Perot who had the kind of juice to play their game for at least one election cycle to get in and encourage the change to happen. As it stands right now, there's no one stepping up to that task.

While it was exciting to see Gary Johnson get the best turnout of any libertarian candidate (tripled what anyone else from the party got), it still only amounted to roughly ~2% of the popular vote and that's even scratching the surface of what it would take.
I don't think it'll take needing a major third party Perot (or Johnson), but it will take a few election cycles for the reality of what the new system is to dawn on the voter. Once they realize that they can vote outside their chosen political party and basically rate the candidates you'll see the change take place. Slowly to be sure at first, but all change for the good seems to happen slow.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Why haven't we implemented this yet? Oh wait, I think I answer my own question....

Before it could be implemented, the electoral college would need to be scrapped.

An AV voting system can't really blend with the existing electoral system we have now. Since the AV system is premised on ranking the candidates rather than single selection, the notion of our current single selection electoral system would negate the AV system.

...unless that is, we were to keep the electoral system, and revise is so that the electoral votes could be split among candidates instead of the all-or-nothing at the state level system we have now...but even then, you wouldn't be getting the full benefits of AV.
 
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Arcangl86

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Before it could be implemented, the electoral college would need to be scrapped.

An AV voting system can't really blend with the existing electoral system we have now. Since the AV system is premised on ranking the candidates rather than single selection, the notion of our current single selection electoral system would negate the AV system.

...unless that is, we were to keep the electoral system, and revise is so that the electoral votes could be split among candidates instead of the all-or-nothing at the state level system we have now...but even then, you wouldn't be getting the full benefits of AV.
We wouldn't need to scrap the EC to implement AV at the state wide level, which would solve a lot of problems.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Or proportional representation?

Hopefully proportional representation at the congressional level should be the goal regardless of the system. The issue with the districting approach is that people move, pass-away, have kids, etc... all at variable rates. I suspect that districting was implemented in the first place to attempt to simplify certain aspects...however the variables I mentioned cause it to be a system in which it's destined for issues from the moment it starts.

Let's pretend for a moment there's a state with only 3 districts and a total population of a 3,000 people (1,000 per district) and 3 seats in congress.

To start, each district has the following
District A (550 republicans/450 democrats) --seat typically goes (R)
District B (550 democrats/450 republicans) --seat typically goes (D)
District C (900 democrats/100 republicans) --seat always goes (D)
--everything is fairly proportional, in a state with 1,100 republicans and 1,900 democrats, it ends up with 1 (R) seat and two (D) seats. Fine and dandy and fair for the most part.

But, over the next 20-30 years, 150 (in proportion to the D:R ratio) people move from District C to District A, adding another 135 D votes, and 15 R votes to District A...still leaving District C as a (D) stronghold with a 765 Democrats and 85 Republicans. However, now, District A has been changed into a scenario with 585 Democrats and 565 Republicans.

So what was a 1 Republican seat/2 Democrat seat scenario has shifted into a Democrat clean sweep even though the population itself hasn't changed and there are still the same number of Democrats and Republicans in the state.

For this example, Districts A & B would represent suburbs and rural areas, and District C would represent Inner City/Urban areas.

That's where the republicans try to get creative, and often times get labeled as "targeting minorities" even though I don't feel that they're doing it with any racist intentions.

The realities in this scenario are, there is a much higher concentration of minorities in Urban/Inner City areas.
They vote democrat 9 times out of 10.
22% of people who live in the inner city areas end up moving out to rural and suburban areas at some point in their lives.
However, the number of republicans who live in the burbs and move to the inner city is nowhere near that.

So a cycle emerges in which Democratic strongholds remain strong, while Republican strongholds get more and more watered down with Democrats. (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way toward Democrats)

...that's where republicans start trying to get "creative" in attempts to lessen the effects of that cycle. The problems with the way they do it are that A) since the largest portion of democrats moving into republican regions are minorities there is no way to try to redraw the lines without setting yourself up for an accusation of racial disenfranchising, and B) there are some present day republicans who try to restore the balance "and them some" (IE: take advantage of it).

A switch could be made to go to a more direct proportional representation system (which is what I think you were getting at), in which we say "there are 1,000 republicans, and 2,000 democrats...republicans get 1 seat, democrats get two" regardless of regions, etc...

However, that would add an extra layer of complexity to the voting process. Since you don't know ahead of time how many people are going to vote each way, you'd first have to take some sort of preliminary vote to determine how many identify with each party in order to determine how many seats each party would get, and then once those numbers were attained, have separate party-level votes to determine the "who" to decide which people are going to sit in those seats.
 
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Paradoxum

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Hopefully proportional representation at the congressional level should be the goal regardless of the system.

I'd think it's the voting system that decides how proportional the representation is, so I don't see how proportional the representation can be the goal, regardless of the system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

In the 'recent' UK election, one party got about 3 million votes, but only one representative. I'm totally against that party, but that isn't representative, and that is wrong. They deserve more representation.

Let's pretend for a moment there's a state with only 3 districts and a total population of a 3,000 people (1,000 per district) and 3 seats in congress.

To start, each district has the following
District A (550 republicans/450 democrats) --seat typically goes (R)
District B (550 democrats/450 republicans) --seat typically goes (D)
District C (900 democrats/100 republicans) --seat always goes (D)
--everything is fairly proportional, in a state with 1,100 republicans and 1,900 democrats, it ends up with 1 (R) seat and two (D) seats. Fine and dandy and fair for the most part.

But, over the next 20-30 years, 150 (in proportion to the D:R ratio) people move from District C to District A, adding another 135 D votes, and 15 R votes to District A...still leaving District C as a (D) stronghold with a 765 Democrats and 85 Republicans. However, now, District A has been changed into a scenario with 585 Democrats and 565 Republicans.

So what was a 1 Republican seat/2 Democrat seat scenario has shifted into a Democrat clean sweep even though the population itself hasn't changed and there are still the same number of Democrats and Republicans in the state.

For this example, Districts A & B would represent suburbs and rural areas, and District C would represent Inner City/Urban areas.

That's where the republicans try to get creative, and often times get labeled as "targeting minorities" even though I don't feel that they're doing it with any racist intentions.

The realities in this scenario are, there is a much higher concentration of minorities in Urban/Inner City areas.
They vote democrat 9 times out of 10.
22% of people who live in the inner city areas end up moving out to rural and suburban areas at some point in their lives.
However, the number of republicans who live in the burbs and move to the inner city is nowhere near that.

So a cycle emerges in which Democratic strongholds remain strong, while Republican strongholds get more and more watered down with Democrats. (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way toward Democrats)

...that's where republicans start trying to get "creative" in attempts to lessen the effects of that cycle. The problems with the way they do it are that A) since the largest portion of democrats moving into republican regions are minorities there is no way to try to redraw the lines without setting yourself up for an accusation of racial disenfranchising, and B) there are some present day republicans who try to restore the balance "and them some" (IE: take advantage of it).

A switch could be made to go to a more direct proportional representation system (which is what I think you were getting at), in which we say "there are 1,000 republicans, and 2,000 democrats...republicans get 1 seat, democrats get two" regardless of regions, etc...

However, that would add an extra layer of complexity to the voting process. Since you don't know ahead of time how many people are going to vote each way, you'd first have to take some sort of preliminary vote to determine how many identify with each party in order to determine how many seats each party would get, and then once those numbers were attained, have separate party-level votes to determine the "who" to decide which people are going to sit in those seats.

Yeah, I'd say that a national government should probably be proportional to the support nationwide, not just who gets a majority in a particular area. It would be technically possible for a party to get 49% of the vote, but zero representatives, with an area majority system.
 
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AceHero

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I think it's a very interesting idea. I've always thought the problem is that we just didn't have enough people willing to vote third party, but obviously it takes more than just voting, especially with votes being siphoned off by a third party that go to the large party you'd rather not win. Changing anything with the electoral process would obviously be very difficult on the national stage, though perhaps advocacy needs to start on the state and local level, preferably with a small state; it would be difficult to create change in a state like California (overtly Democratic) or Texas (overtly Republican). Perhaps it'd work in a small state, such as Vermont, which probably has the most significant third party influence of any state, although it is still quite minor:

Senate
250px-Senate_diagram_2014_State_of_Vermont.svg.png


House
250px-House_of_Representatives_diagram_2014_State_of_Vermont.svg.png


The Senate has 3 Vermont Progressive Party members. The House has 6, along with 5 independents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_General_Assembly

Vermont has the population of Seattle, so I could see an attempt at such a system happening there, especially due to the state's history of having a strong spirit of independence.

I could also see it being tested in other states with low populations, but you know both the Democrats and Republicans would be fighting it with every chance they can get. No doubt a lot of outside anti-reform money would be pouring into any state attempting such an experiment.
 
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