Election Issue

[bcbsr]

Question - Can Calvinists disprove this statement?

Calvinists don't believe in salvation by faith. They believe in salvation by election, which according to them occurs prior to one's birth. As such at no time in the "elect's" life, even as a unbeliever, was the person ever in danger of going to hell, as such was never not saved.

 

[brightlights]

Question - Can Calvinists disprove this statement?

Calvinists don't believe in salvation by faith. They believe in salvation by election, which according to them occurs prior to one's birth. As such at no time in the "elect's" life, even as a unbeliever, was the person ever in danger of going to hell, as such was never not saved.

On one level it's true. But it also totally ignores the dynamics of human life and the linear, historical nature of salvation as it plays out in history and in our lives. So it's a pretty wooden statement that doesn't have the appropriate nuances. Therefore I would not put it like this.

 

[Radrook]

Election issues? I thought this thread was about recent USA politics!

 

[Greg J.]

Did God predestine Trump to be elected POTUS, or did the American people decide? Answer: Both, except a human cannot successfully see through the eternal perspective of God's eyes.

 

[bcbsr]

Did God predestine Trump to be elected POTUS, or did the American people decide? Answer: Both, except a human cannot successfully see through the eternal perspective of God's eyes.

The issue I'm dealing with is when, based on Calvinistic theology, is salvation locked in. If it's locked in at the point of election, which occurs prior to one's birth, then faith does not initialize salvation. When such a person comes to faith in Christ, their fate had already been locked in prior to that. Thus "faith" doesn't do anything based on Calvinistic theology, with regards to whether one ultimately ends up on heaven or hell.

 

[RC1970]

Did God predestine Trump to be elected POTUS, or did the American people decide? Answer: Both, except a human cannot successfully see through the eternal perspective of God's eyes.

Technically, predestination has to do with salvation. The word you're looking for is providence. The rest of your thesis is spot on.

 

[Greg J.]

The issue I'm dealing with is when, based on Calvinistic theology, is salvation locked in. If it's locked in at the point of election, which occurs prior to one's birth, then faith does not initialize salvation. When such a person comes to faith in Christ, their fate had already been locked in prior to that. Thus "faith" doesn't do anything based on Calvinistic theology, with regards to whether one ultimately ends up on heaven or hell.

I don't know Calvinistic theology, so you'll have to get that answer from someone else.

But if you are looking for a real-life, practical answer: regardless of what anyone's theology says, you won't know you're one of them or not until you die. We all have to deal with who our faith is in, not our faith, per se. How does one deal with his own faith?

The kind of faith we are talking about is fundamentally and simply the ways in which God has granted us to believe in and trust him. No matter what anyone believes, they can choose to reject God later in life, which would (at that point) demonstrate that they weren't saved in the first place, regardless of what they thought.

As has been said many times (in many ways), there is no cruise control for living the Christian life. You are either heading uphill or you are sliding back down. Being a Christian is a daily decision. If you have that heart, you are probably saved. If you are trying to figure out the least you can do and still be saved, you probably are not.

 

[bcbsr]

I don't know Calvinistic theology, so you'll have to get that answer from someone else.

But if you are looking for a real-life, practical answer: regardless of what anyone's theology says, you won't know you're one of them or not until you die. We all have to deal with who our faith is in, not our faith, per se. How does one deal with his own faith?

The kind of faith we are talking about is fundamentally and simply the ways in which God has granted us to believe in and trust him. No matter what anyone believes, they can choose to reject God later in life, which would (at that point) demonstrate that they weren't saved in the first place, regardless of what they thought.

As has been said many times (in many ways), there is no cruise control for living the Christian life. You are either heading uphill or you are sliding back down. Being a Christian is a daily decision. If you have that heart, you are probably saved. If you are trying to figure out the least you can do and still be saved, you probably are not.

I agree with your point that those who alleged had come to faith only to fall away later on weren't saved to begin with. John uses that principle in 1John 2:19 concerning those who left the faith.

But when it comes to assurance doesn't that naturally come along with saving faith. Putting our trust in God to save us would seem to logically imply that doubting we are saved is doubting God's promise to save us. And thus I would say that one's confidence of their salvation status comes along with trust in God to save us - and that apart from the issues of works or performance. Thus, for example, I am confident that I am going to heaven because I trust God will get me there and Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 So it's a done deal.

Those who don't believe this - well, aren't they by definition "unbelievers"?

 

[Kiterius]

Question - Can Calvinists disprove this statement?

Calvinists don't believe in salvation by faith. They believe in salvation by election, which according to them occurs prior to one's birth. As such at no time in the "elect's" life, even as a unbeliever, was the person ever in danger of going to hell, as such was never not saved.

You're talking about extreme Calvinists rather than moderate Calvinists like myself and John Calvin.

 

[Greg J.]

I agree with your point that those who alleged had come to faith only to fall away later on weren't saved to begin with. John uses that principle in 1John 2:19 concerning those who left the faith.

But when it comes to assurance doesn't that naturally come along with saving faith. Putting our trust in God to save us would seem to logically imply that doubting we are saved is doubting God's promise to save us. And thus I would say that one's confidence of their salvation status comes along with trust in God to save us - and that apart from the issues of works or performance. Thus, for example, I am confident that I am going to heaven because I trust God will get me there and Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 So it's a done deal.

Those who don't believe this - well, aren't they by definition "unbelievers"?

I am simply trying to accommodate Matthew 7:21-23, which refers to people who believed in the Lord who thought they were saved, but weren't. But Biblical faith that saves has a component built into it of genuinely accepting God as your God. This is the kind of belief which results in works from the heart (as opposed to demons' belief in James 2:19). One can "believe in Jesus" in all kinds of ways, but if he isn't your Lord (such that you believe you are expected to obey his commands), he isn't your Savior.

 

[bcbsr]

You're talking about extreme Calvinists rather than moderate Calvinists like myself and John Calvin.

Well let's talk about moderate Calvinism - with respect to the doctrine of Unconditional Election.

So, when according to moderate Calvinism is a person elect? Before the foundation of the world? Just before faith? Just after faith?

Secondly, according to moderate Calvinism will the elect be ultimately be saved from the wrath of God?

When is a person's salvation locked it, when he's elect? Or, assuming that occurs at a different time that when he believes, is his salvation not secured until he believes, before which he would be "elect" but with the possibility of ending up in hell.

 

[Greg J.]

When is a person's salvation locked it, when he's elect? Or, assuming that occurs at a different time that when he believes, is his salvation not secured until he believes, before which he would be "elect" but with the possibility of ending up in hell.

You seem to be trying to reconcile two perspectives. From God's eternal point of view, he chose the elect before he created the universe, and they will choose the path by which they will believe and be saved. But the human does not know this. In fact, if he knew it, then he could not be saved. From the human's viewpoint, it is his responsibility to choose what path to follow, and it will determine his eternal condition (aka, heaven or hell).

But you cannot reconcile the two perspectives until you can genuinely see everything as God does, which no human can presumably do in this life.

 

[bcbsr]

You're talking about extreme Calvinists rather than moderate Calvinists like myself and John Calvin.

A point about John Calvin. I don't think you would be able to classify him as a "moderate" Calvinist, though I'm unclear as to the difference.

Consider what John Calvin himself wrote in his Institutes:

Institutes of the Christian Religion
CHAPTER 21.
OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION. (Title is Calvin's)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation"

"The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause."

So he certainty did believe in "double" predestination. And that predestination was not based on God's foreknowledge (prescience) of a person's response to the gospel

So, would he be a "moderate" Calvinist as you say?

 

[bcbsr]

You seem to be trying to reconcile two perspectives. From God's eternal point of view, he chose the elect before he created the universe, and they will choose the path by which they will believe and be saved. But the human does not know this. In fact, if he knew it, then he could not be saved. From the human's viewpoint, it is his responsibility to choose what path to follow, and it will determine his eternal condition (aka, heaven or hell).

But you cannot reconcile the two perspectives until you can genuinely see everything as God does, which no human can presumably do in this life.

Actually a more rational way of reconciling the two is to propose that when predestination is talking about a category of people, namely believers, the category was predestined before the foundation of the world, but people exercised free will to enter that category. On an individual basis you could say that God foreknew (prescience) who would come to the faith, and thus could say that God set in motion plans for that outcome.

But that's not Calvinism. My question is about the logical inconsistency of Calvinism itself.

 

[98cwitr]

Question - Can Calvinists disprove this statement?

Calvinists don't believe in salvation by faith. They believe in salvation by election, which according to them occurs prior to one's birth. As such at no time in the "elect's" life, even as a unbeliever, was the person ever in danger of going to hell, as such was never not saved.

You're missing a piece. Salvation comes through faith, faith comes from God, who also predestines the elect unto faith and a changed heart. Make sense?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

You seem to be trying to reconcile two perspectives. From God's eternal point of view, he chose the elect before he created the universe, and they will choose the path by which they will believe and be saved. But the human does not know this. In fact, if he knew it, then he could not be saved. From the human's viewpoint, it is his responsibility to choose what path to follow, and it will determine his eternal condition (aka, heaven or hell).

But you cannot reconcile the two perspectives until you can genuinely see everything as God does, which no human can presumably do in this life.

Good point.

Election is God selecting us ahead, because he knew what choices we would make in our lives to follow God. Faith in us is learning about God and making the choices that one who follows God does to salvation.

Do we have a choice in the matter? This is really above our pay grade. Who are we to argue to what degree God creates hearts that follow or reject God.

The simplest answer for us simpletons is that we make choices, therefore we have a choice in the matter.

 

[bcbsr]

You're missing a piece. Salvation comes through faith, faith comes from God, who also predestines the elect unto faith and a changed heart. Make sense?

Your statement doesn't really speak to the issue I was raising. Apparently you didn't comprehend my meaning. (Though last time I question someone's ability to comprehend my meaning I was accused of FLAMING. It's like walking on rice paper in these forums)