Election and amillenialism in book of Jonah

Jacque_Pierre22

Active Member
Aug 13, 2014
213
38
nyc
✟46,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Hey it;s been a while since i've been here but I've had a question that doesn't stop bugging me. I can't find anything about it online. In the book of Revelation according to an amillenialist viewpoint which is most calvinists and lutherans, the 144,000 is a symbolic number (12 tribes of Israel x 12 apostles x 1000) and represents the "fullness" of people who are saved. However, in the book of Jonah, no one analyzes the numbers for some reason. People just gloss over it. If you look at chapter 3 and 4, it takes Jonah 3 days to travel to the city, and they are given 40 days to repent. In chapter 4, 120,000 are mentioned by God that he wishes to give a chance. Obviously, you multiply 40x3x1000= 120,000. The common number here 1,000. I think these passages are significant in proving the amillenialist view. Also, I think that it supports the idea of election. Taking a literal view of the book of Jonah and believing there were exactly 120,000 people in that city is therefore the same logic as literally interpreting that only 144,000 are saved, as Jehovah's witnesses people. Therefore a consistent position would assume that all of these numbers are symbolic. I would like to hear views from any Lutheran, anglican, reformed, orthodox, view of this. In addition, the symbols go against the idea of "national election" for Israel, that everyone who lived in Israel was saved in the OT, because obviously if every single person was saved in the book of Jonah, that would be an example to interpret Romans 9 as Israel rather than individuals. Thoughts?
 

Jacque_Pierre22

Active Member
Aug 13, 2014
213
38
nyc
✟46,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
by the way I think Lutheranism is the correct theology because while it upholds "unlimited atonement" it also affirms total depravity and election, while disaffirming persevearance of the saints and irrisistable grace;
 
Upvote 0

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟20,928.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Well I'm reformed and Amil and I fail to see how the passages from Jonah support Amillinianism. In regards to election - you don't need the numbers or symbology to show God's purpose in saving people outside of Israel for the simple fact that Jonah was going to a non-Jewish pagan city with a message of hope!
 
Upvote 0

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟20,928.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
And what if the Pagans weren't part of the selected group to receive salvation? Then Jonah was going in vain?
I not sure what you mean by the question. Clearly they were of the elect which is why Jonah was sent to them.
 
Upvote 0

Dom Puccio

Contemplator
Sep 8, 2015
98
20
Manhattan, KS
✟7,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If every one of them believed I don't see why you would assume otherwise.
I guess I have a hard time understanding how we know that those Pagans were indefinitely part of the elect and how we can be ones to judge for certain that they were saved.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟20,928.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I guess I have a hard time understanding how we know that those Pagans were indefinitely part of the elect and how we can be ones to judge for certain that they were saved.
If they believed they are of the elect. As Romans 9 states - not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israeal.
 
Upvote 0

Dom Puccio

Contemplator
Sep 8, 2015
98
20
Manhattan, KS
✟7,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
True - I'm talking about the ones who believed.
If there are only ones who believed and others didn't then not all of the Pagans were saved and not all of them were included in the elect, which was not what the original statement was when we began discussing.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dom Puccio

Contemplator
Sep 8, 2015
98
20
Manhattan, KS
✟7,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Just to finish up

Sproul says,
“If there is one maverick molecule in the universe, God is not God.”

Also

“Not only is every atom and molecule, every thought and desire, kept in being by God, but every twist and turn of each of these is under the direct control of God.”

One can find similar sayings in virtually every Calvinist theologian’s writings.

Thus Hyper Calvinist does have an answer to the Human responsibility problem (God supposedly predestining man's sin and then blamining man - as if he had free will!!!). Sadly the common calvinist does not and forever dances around this BIG issue.
I appreciate you posting this. Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟20,928.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to point out to him - which was the symbology wasn't necessary to show that God has elect people outside of Israel - some (I'd say most) pagans in Ninevah believed hence some were elected.
 
Upvote 0

Jacque_Pierre22

Active Member
Aug 13, 2014
213
38
nyc
✟46,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Well in 1 Kings 19 a remnant of exactly 7,000 were elect. The 1,000 is multiplied with 7. It shows in the least that the number 1,000 is not literal in the book of revelation, but it also shows "election" to me because some commentators say that 600,000 were in Ninevah. Most who read the book of Jonah will think that every single person was saved and the city only had 120,000.
 
Upvote 0