ELCA vs. Missouri Synod - Major Differences?

[Music4Hym777]

Wow, I am not even going to get into the debate. But I will say here in AZ it doesn't bother people, yeah, do we sometimes joke around about it, but it doesn't really bother us.

There have been some problems with the Traditional LCMS about five miles from the ELCA church that I attend. They are having some problems with their particular church, so each time we do Membership class, there are at least a dozen LCMSers in the class joining our ELCA church!

There is also a retreat that you get to go on once from the time you are 15-20 and then another one that you get to go on once from ages 21+. This is an LCMS and ELCA retreat combined. (TIROSH and Cursillo) We have same studies together, (I think) we take communion together, we pray together and we even have doctrinal discussions together.

I really dont feel like getting into this, but this is what I am seeing from the people here in AZ. I also have heard the opposite of the ELCA church downtown that is having problems going to an LCMS church not far away from it.

In Christ United We Stand!
Monica

 

[Flipper]

Not only the Confessions, but I feel scripture as well lays out some warnings pastors who distribute the Body and Blood openly should heed.

Maybe I should have elaborated better... There is an entire page of statements in our worship folder for non-members to read through (if I can find one, I will share). If the non-member agrees with the statements, he/she may take communion. In a congregation of over 2000 with 3 Sunday services and an average of 500 in each service - there are just too many people for the Elders to be policing the communion lines.

 

[Willy]

I hardly consider standing firm on issues, for the sake of truth, is locking oneself in a little room. We should not sacrifice truth on the altar of unity. I too, have my concerns with the current President, and hopefully Preus will get elected this summer. But, I am afraid, that my concerns differ greatly from yours, but it is hard to tell, since you are being so unclear and vague with your criticisms. I would consider submitting to secular culture and modern social pressures, a sign of fear...while disallowing the worldly culture to influence the culture of the church a clear sign of bravery.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Herein lies many of the problems. The LCMS has led itself to belief that it posesses the "truth." When you possess the truth, it is hard to relate to others who simply don't have the truth. I believe that it is more appropriate to say that the truth possess us. Such an understanding lightens us up a whole lot. The truth is something we have that we have to give to others, if they will only think like us. No, the truth claims us and invites us into a relationship with it that involves a humble searching posture. And guess what? Others are invited into that same humble posture. The truth of the cross is found in this understanding. The only absolute truth is God, something/someone we cannot possess. If grace means anything, it points us to the bigger-than-us nature of ultimate reality. Life is so much easier when we don't have to live in such a control seeking mode.

 

[JMRE5150]

I am GREATLY upset, and do so emphasize GREATLY, that my brothers, especially those who call themselves Lutherans, would deny my fellowship. Would Christ deny His fellowship to me? Does Christ infact withhold His precious Body and Blood from our table? If he doesn't withhold His Body and Blood then why not come to our table? For not the sake of us but for the sake of Him who offered Himself for us?

It greatly pains my soul, and as I am writing I am greatly disturbed to the point of tears. The Holy Sacrament of the Altar is the most precious possesion of the Church, and I can't bare to hear Christians deny it to other Christians.

I'll read your responses but that is all I have to say on this subject for the sake of unity.

-James

Ya know...out of this whole thread, this was the most important post of all. And I'm alittle ashamed of myself, and others should be too...that a dear Christian brother wrote about his pain, only to be overlooked and bypassed.
I'm sure some folks sent James a PM or two about it, and thats wonderful...but don't miss the real issue here.

Stop debating this as if its just another coffee table discussion of differences when your own brothers and sisters are torn to tears over the pain of division.

Many of the sects of Lutherans are too busy trying to relive their hero's liberating image of disagreement to realize that they are hurting people that love them, differences or not. Sometimes I wonder if many Lutherans hold Luther as high as Jesus, as if the man was divine or something. He was a man, we follow his teachings, we don't always agree on how to do that, but we still are united under what he stood for...the common folk.

At what cost will we bash each other in the head over issues? Does either side REALLY believe if they argue long enough, they will win the agruement, and turn others to their beliefs? If you do, your naive.

Look at James...a brother in Christ...hurting because he sees us fighting over each others interpretation of doctrine. I'm sorry...arguing over doctrine DOES NOT edify Christ. I'll choose caring for brother James instead of arguing our differences. Christ was about compassion and love, not about doctrinal issues.

Just agree to disagree, and lets move on. I guess I'm just upset at the lack of humanity when we see our friends hurting over this.
I apologize emmensely if I offended any of you.

Your friend in Christ,
Robb

 

[ChiRho]

WILLY

Herein lies many of the problems. The LCMS has led itself to belief that it posesses the "truth."

Well, Lutheranism, from Her very Confessions, boldy makes this claim as being the church, who has continued and has been given, the true Apostolic Faith, and all those outside of complete assent with Her Confessions, are doctrinally in error! Certainly not all, that dissent, with the Lutheran Confessions are outside of the Church catholic. It is true that faith is created, given, and sustained only by Word and Sacrament, so any sinner exposed to the proclaimed Gospel may believe, but heretical doctrine tears at faith and seeks to consume the Christian. We believe that the Book of Concord is the true interpretation of Scripture...literally! To deviate from this would require sufficient Scriptural evidence, of which you, nor anyone, is providing. It just seems, that you are basically calling us mean without any real evidence of why your belief is correct and our is incorrect.

When you possess the truth, it is hard to relate to others who simply don't have the truth.

Assuming that you are not contending that interpretation of Holy Scripture is relative, you must be standing from a position that you believe to be true, or how could you ever contend that we are in error?

I believe that it is more appropriate to say that the truth possess us.

True.

Such an understanding lightens us up a whole lot.

True.

The truth is something we have that we have to give to others, if they will only think like us.

This is a misrepresentation of the LCMS.

No, the truth claims us and invites us into a relationship with it that involves a humble searching posture. And guess what? Others are invited into that same humble posture.

Again, I do not contend that all of those outside of the LCMS are lost sinners. The Righteousness of Christ covers doctrinal error.

The truth of the cross is found in this understanding. The only absolute truth is God, something/someone we cannot possess.

When have I suggested different? Saving faith is reckoned to us, not of our merit.

If grace means anything, it points us to the bigger-than-us nature of ultimate reality. Life is so much easier when we don't have to live in such a control seeking mode.

Surely you believe, that your church proclaims the truth, if not, why do you go?

If you would like to make specific claims about the LCMS that you believe to be in error, then maybe I can addrress your contentions. But, really, you have remained vague and unclear. Because I stand, and do not waver in my belief, everyone thinks I am mean. I do not like division. My wish is that you would come to the LCMS and end this division. But to sacrifice what one believes to be true, for the sake of peace or "happy feelings," goes against conscience, something I am not inclined to do.

"...since it is unsafe and wrong to go against my conscience. God help me. Amen."

-Martin Luther

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[ChiRho]

Ya know...out of this whole thread, this was the most important post of all. And I'm alittle ashamed of myself, and others should be too...that a dear Christian brother wrote about his pain, only to be overlooked and bypassed.
I'm sure some folks sent James a PM or two about it, and thats wonderful...but don't miss the real issue here.

Stop debating this as if its just another coffee table discussion of differences when your own brothers and sisters are torn to tears over the pain of division.

Many of the sects of Lutherans are too busy trying to relive their hero's liberating image of disagreement to realize that they are hurting people that love them, differences or not. Sometimes I wonder if many Lutherans hold Luther as high as Jesus, as if the man was divine or something. He was a man, we follow his teachings, we don't always agree on how to do that, but we still are united under what he stood for...the common folk.

At what cost will we bash each other in the head over issues? Does either side REALLY believe if they argue long enough, they will win the agruement, and turn others to their beliefs? If you do, your naive.

Look at James...a brother in Christ...hurting because he sees us fighting over each others interpretation of doctrine. I'm sorry...arguing over doctrine DOES NOT edify Christ. I'll choose caring for brother James instead of arguing our differences. Christ was about compassion and love, not about doctrinal issues.

Just agree to disagree, and lets move on. I guess I'm just upset at the lack of humanity when we see our friends hurting over this.
I apologize emmensely if I offended any of you.

Your friend in Christ,
Robb

Assuming that this is intended for me, at least, in part, I will respond. I am sorry that James hurts. I do not wish him to feel pain.

But James is not being turned away from the altar at the ELCA Church. He is receiving the Body and the Blood...Communing at his church and I assume, he has confidence in what they believe. But are you suggesting that because the LCMS believes differently, that we should stop to accomodate any and all beliefs, so that we can all feel good about unity? James, most surely, is my brother in Christ, that does not mean that I must submit to ELCA's beliefs, even if it brings him pain. I am not really sure what I said that triggered such pain. Aside from posting some of our official stances regarding the differences between ELCA and the LCMS (which I would assume, ELCA also disagrees with our stance), I simply stated that our differences are not small and petty. They are real differences. This is not language to propel division, but honest clarification of what is reality. Again, I am not advocating division, but I will not sacrifice my beliefs for the sake of unity.


A Reaffirmation of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod's
Position on Close(d) Communion
A Statement of
The Praesidium of
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
21 August 1996

We, the members of the Praesidium of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, wish to express our joy in the fellowship the members of the Synod enjoy with one another in the true faith. We thank God for this blessing. We treasure the wonderful opportunities God gives our Synod to reach out to the world with the Gospel, bearing witness to the truths of God's Word, in a bold confession of our Lutheran faith. We recognize as part of this opportunity the responsibility to administer the Sacrament of the Altar in a faithful manner, being mindful of the need for careful instruction to those who desire to commune at the Lord's table. In accord with the Scriptures' and the Confessions' teaching about the Lord's Supper, and the nature and basis of church fellowship, our Synod continues to reaffirm the historic, confessional church practice of close(d) communion.

We are keenly aware that our Synod faces a critical moment in the history of the Lutheran church in America. Decisions are being contemplated by other churches to enter into eucharistic fellowship with one another, without the resolution of the long standing and critical differences that divide the Reformed and Lutheran churches. This is a time for our Synod to affirm boldly the great truths of our Lutheran confession and to offer an alternative to an increasingly pluralistic and secularized view of the Christian faith. Rather than being caught up in the times in which we live, we as a Synod are able to offer a unique and faithful Lutheran witness to those struggling with questions about truth and the meaning of what it is to be a Lutheran church in our world today. Rather than conforming to the spirit of our age, we have before us the opportunity for faithful confession and catechesis.

We recognize the pastoral responsibility the church has not merely to accept minimalistic concessions to ill-defined and un- examined confessions of the faith, but instead to lead people into the truth of the Scriptures, so that they may enjoy the fellowship of the church as it gathers at the altar to receive her Lord's body and blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.

Because of our great respect for our Synod's fellowship in the Faith, and because of the opportunities which are presenting themselves to us to be and remain a strong, confessional Lutheran church in this country, and a voice for genuine confessional Lutheranism around the world, we must express our fraternal concern with the document, "A Declaration of Eucharistic Understanding and Practice." We regret the fact that some members of our synodical family have persisted in their public advocacy of an erroneous position in regard to close(d) communion. Sadly, they have done this in spite of the fraternal, pastoral and faithful admonition of our Synod's president, and of our Synod's district presidents, who have counseled with them about this situation.

Therefore, we affirm and commend to our Synod, the pastoral application of the faithful and evangelical resolution adopted by our Synod in convention last summer reaffirming our Synod's scriptural position on close(d) communion, Resolution 3-08. We ask that all members of the Synod, both church workers and congregations, receive, respect and conform their practice to this resolution. We, as the Praesidium of The Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, commit ourselves to its implementation among our fellowship and support our district presidents as they do the same. We recognize that it is the responsibility of the district presidents to maintain the integrity of our fellowship in our faith as they correct and reprove error in the discharge of the duties of their office. We offer our fraternal encouragement to them as they carry out their duty of doctrinal supervision in this matter.

We pray for God's continued blessing on our Synod. May He keep us ever steadfast and faithful, for the sake of our stewardship of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is not a denial of faith! If you have faith in Christ, then you are my Christian brother or sister and part of the catholic Church, even though we cannot gather at the altar together.



Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[JMRE5150]

Assuming that this is intended for me, at least, in part

My response to James was meant for everyone who passed up his post about his personal pain over the bickering. It was directed to everyone who didn't bother to stop making their points long enough to even notice, or care.

I am sorry that James hurts. I do not wish him to feel pain.

I am thrilled you feel this way, and I'm sure you wouldn't wish anyone any pain. At least let's hope not.

But are you suggesting that because the LCMS believes differently, that we should stop to accomodate any and all beliefs, so that we can all feel good about unity?

We are talking about a brother in Christ here. If one is hurt or wounded, you are charged by Christ to lend your support. At least I would hope you would. Using the word "accomodate" is a bit too much, don't you think? Noone would ever ask you to accomodate or change your position of beliefs in order to care for and comfort another Christian. Your equating doctrinal differences with the simple act of compassion. Thats a stretch.

James, most surely, is my brother in Christ, that does not mean that I must submit to ELCA's beliefs, even if it brings him pain.

Again, it seems like you are obsessed with the notions that ELCA want to change you. Or your LCMS. You folks don't want to partake in partnership with the ELCA. We understand that, and never try to force you to do so. Why does it appear that sooooo many other sects convince themselves there is a secret attempt to get their sect within our own ELCA group? It just seems you are always in defense of the LCMS, while sometimes that defense is needlessly unnecessary in a situation like this.

I am not really sure what I said that triggered such pain. Aside from posting some of our official stances regarding the differences between ELCA and the LCMS (which I would assume, ELCA also disagrees with our stance), I simply stated that our differences are not small and petty. They are real differences. This is not language to propel division, but honest clarification of what is reality. Again, I am not advocating division, but I will not sacrifice my beliefs for the sake of unity.

Brother, again...I don't think it was specifically aimed at you, or the LCMS division. Can't a man/woman simply feel hurt and pain over the division without having a secret motive to bring us together? I almost feel like this is implying Brother James was purposely showing his great pains so that we would all come together as one. Maybe he simply was telling us he's hurt, because after all, thats what Christians do with other Christians...share their pain. There isn't always an alterior motive.

Chi, I love ya man, you know I do. Seriously. But we are not asking ANYONE to throw away their beliefs, but rather to take a second to comfort a man in pain. Someone who is simply beaten down by the constant battlelines drawn and redrawn with endless back and forth rhetoric about who is right and wrong. It can beat any of us down. Jame simply was stating his moment of frustration and pain.

It is a wonderful thing though, that the end of your post did show that you love and wish James no pain. It truly shows your a fantastic Christian, and that you truly do care. Your a good mate to agrue with. Lets just take a minute sometimes to pick up and move the wounded souls off the battlefield before we continue to engage in combative rhetoric.

 

[ChiRho]

I am GREATLY upset, and do so emphasize GREATLY, that my brothers, especially those who call themselves Lutherans, would deny my fellowship. Would Christ deny His fellowship to me? Does Christ infact withhold His precious Body and Blood from our table? If he doesn't withhold His Body and Blood then why not come to our table? For not the sake of us but for the sake of Him who offered Himself for us?

We are talking about a brother in Christ here. If one is hurt or wounded, you are charged by Christ to lend your support. At least I would hope you would. Using the word "accomodate" is a bit too much, don't you think? Noone would ever ask you to accomodate or change your position of beliefs in order to care for and comfort another Christian. Your equating doctrinal differences with the simple act of compassion. Thats a stretch.

What was the source of pain for James? From his post, I gathered it was our belief regarding Closed Communion. Apparently, you disagree. Maybe James could clarify.

A

gain, it seems like you are obsessed with the notions that ELCA want to change you. Or your LCMS. You folks don't want to partake in partnership with the ELCA. We understand that, and never try to force you to do so. Why does it appear that sooooo many other sects convince themselves there is a secret attempt to get their sect within our own ELCA group? It just seems you are always in defense of the LCMS, while sometimes that defense is needlessly unnecessary in a situation like this.

From the reaction of many of the posts, I judged that many deemed us mean, or even suggested that it is an utter tragedy that we have Closed Communion. At least the posts were implying that the LCMS position was unfair or stuck in somewhere in the distant past. I encourage you to reread the posts and show me where I drew upon phantom opinions.

Brother, again...I don't think it was specifically aimed at you, or the LCMS division. Can't a man/woman simply feel hurt and pain over the division without having a secret motive to bring us together? I almost feel like this is implying Brother James was purposely showing his great pains so that we would all come together as one. Maybe he simply was telling us he's hurt, because after all, thats what Christians do with other Christians...share their pain. There isn't always an alterior motive.

You are incorrect in your assessment. I did not ever believe that James had an alterior motive for his post. I believe he was clear and honest about his pain, and what the source of his pain was. My "defensive" posts were not responding to James, but to the others, who evidentally were not hurting, but offering some rather dogmatic opinions.

The original post asked for the differences between the LCMS and ELCA churches. Initially, I offered only that of official LCMS opinion, cut and pasted directly from our website. In hindsight, I should have ended with that and allowed the criticism to go unanswered. Most likely due to my lack of class, and apparently, my inability to communicate with love and compassion towards my Christian brothers and sisters, I failed. If their is anymore inquiry about the LCMS belief, I appeal to my first three posts and the material found on our website, www.lcms.org.

May the Peace of Christ be with all of you, always!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[JMRE5150]

I suppose its best with we both detach ourselves from this thread


It appears I have hijacked it, and did not wish to do so. It seems this has turned into a JMRE5150/ChiRho debate, and I'm sure neither myself or ChiRho ever intented it as such.

My apologies to all, as this was not our personal debate thread.

Me and Chi can do that in PM's if we want.


Chi, don't forget that I love ya bud, and meant no ill feelings toward you.

Your friend in Christ,
Robb

 

[Lotar]

I think one of the major differences between us is the way we approach doctrine. The ELCA sees itself as a "reforming Church" and the LCMS sees itself as a "reformed Church." Anything and everything is open to change in the ELCA, while it is not so in the LCMS, where the BOC, and Scripture interpreted by Tradition are accepted as truth.

The ELCA has been strongly influenced by pietism, while LCMS has remained orthodox and confessional.

 

[ChiRho]

I think one of the major differences between us is the way we approach doctrine. The ELCA sees itself as a "reforming Church" and the LCMS sees itself as a "reformed Church."Anything and everything is open to change in the ELCA, while it is not so in the LCMS, where the BOC, and Scripture interpreted by Tradition are accepted as truth.

The ELCA has been strongly influenced by pietism, while LCMS has remained orthodox and confessional.

In a few clear sentences, Lotar, has summed up the differences quite nicely!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho