EJW the Sabbath is a relationship

[fozzy]

None of those things are in his major writings like Glad Tidings, the Gospel in Creation and Christ and his Righteousness. Which are what I have been quoting from. As I said you and your ilk will always invent ways to fear grace. He got treated like dirt by the legalists of his day and eventually cracked under the pressure. He wasn't perfect and made many mistakes but he was closer to truth than Ellen White whose writings are the polar opposite of his. As to the sanctuary doctrine and in particular 1844 that is a joke. I can prove that nothing happened in 1844 from Ellen White's own mouth. She said that when Jesus goes into the most holy his people would be giving the 3rd angels' message here on earth. The 3rd angels' message didn't come to the church until 1888 so how could it have been given in 1844? Did they have a time machine?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

My point was this... there were many within the SDA faith that strayed down wrong doctrinal pathways against the counsel of sister White... Kellog, Waggoner, Uriah Smith and even James White to a certain extent, developed false theories on certain doctrinal points. Sister White warned each about these errors but her counsel wasn't heeded. Ellen White on the other hand stayed pretty much on point to the light she was given early on, til her death.

Kinda hard to call her teachings false compared to these others, don't ya think?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I can prove that nothing happened in 1844 from Ellen White's own mouth. She said that when Jesus goes into the most holy his people would be giving the 3rd angels' message here on earth. The 3rd angels' message didn't come to the church until 1888 so how could it have been given in 1844? Did they have a time machine?

Could you give me the quotes that show this please so I can respond to it better?

I have done studies that show the 3 angels messages were all proclaimed in the period of 1840 to 1844 in a local, immediate context.

She also said that the events of that time period would be repeated, to the very letter at the end.

I will dig up these studies for you to look at if you would like... they even have some cool 'line upon line' charts to show the model more clearly.

 

[JojotheBeloved]

It's not like EGW was the only inspired writer or leader of her time; Waggoner and others had good things to say too, and White supported Waggoner on his and Jones' insistance on grace by faith through Christ. There is no problem with recognizing that other authors are inspired with good advice and good insights; and there is a danger in elevating White to a place equal with Scripture - which is a misuse of the text. What is a problem is attacking anyone who simply disagrees with your point of view.

 

[fozzy]

My point was this... there were many within the SDA faith that strayed down wrong doctrinal pathways against the counsel of sister White... Kellog, Waggoner, Uriah Smith and even James White to a certain extent, developed false theories on certain doctrinal points. Sister White warned each about these errors but her counsel wasn't heeded. Ellen White on the other hand stayed pretty much on point to the light she was given early on, til her death.

Kinda hard to call her teachings false compared to these others, don't ya think?

So Sister White is your ultimate authority which means that if she went astray then you also would go astray be default. Sister White did go astray on many points, something you fail to acknowledge! She was an old covenant Christian who had health laws and dress codes and rules of conduct which are all contrary to the gospel. She had bizarre ideas like spicy foods bringing out the animal passions in people implying that what I eat can cause me to sin. This is false and a doctrine of works. Jesus said it’s not what we put in our mouth that defiles us but what comes out of the heart. This is why I have no hesitation in calling her a false prophet because she perverted the gospel into a worthless set of rules.

 

[fozzy]

Could you give me the quotes that show this please so I can respond to it better?

I have done studies that show the 3 angels messages were all proclaimed in the period of 1840 to 1844 in a local, immediate context.

She also said that the events of that time period would be repeated, to the very letter at the end.

I will dig up these studies for you to look at if you would like... they even have some cool 'line upon line' charts to show the model more clearly.

I think she made those statements in Early Writings but all anyone has to do is look at the three angel’s messages in the bible to know that her ideas were false. None of those messages were given prior to 1844 and none are being given today.

3rd Angel - This message talks about the mark of the beast and that did not happen in 1844 or any time since. There has never been a death penalty or prohibition against buying and selling for having the mark of the beast. This is future from our day.

2nd Angel - This message tells that Babylon has fallen and Adventists have never correctly identified who or what Babylon is. Babylon from the bible is identified as Jerusalem or the old covenant not the Catholic church! Coming out of Babylon means you are learning to walk by faith alone. That’s strike two for the Adventists.

1st Angel - This message speaks of the judgment hour and the everlasting gospel going to all the earth. The Adventist church has never given the gospel to the world only their only their old covenant law worship and old covenant Sabbath which means instead of calling people out of Babylon they have been sending people into Babylon. Strike three.

Uncle William and aunt Ellen and all the podunk farmers who were sitting on a rock waiting for Jesus to come back in 1844 fulfilled nothing! Everything including the judgment hour, the gospel going to all the world and the mark of the beast will be fulfilled in the end-time. Ellen White was once again wrong about everything which means that all her adoring fans who worship her over the bible are wrong as well. They have rejected the everlasting gospel which makes them the workmen of Satan not God.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If you believe nothing of what Adventism teaches or was founded upon, then why do you post contrary theories here? Is it to cause a stumbling block? Or do you consider yourself the expositor of truth and must educate us poor heathens?

I can tell you that your attitude and words do not show a Christ like character so you might want to address that before trying to proselytize us.

 

[fozzy]

If you believe nothing of what Adventism teaches or was founded upon, then why do you post contrary theories here? Is it to cause a stumbling block? Or do you consider yourself the expositor of truth and must educate us poor heathens?

I can tell you that your attitude and words do not show a Christ like character so you might want to address that before trying to proselytize us.

Because I am a disgruntled former Adventist, that's why. I fully admit that and as someone who believed much of what Adventism teaches I do not like being lied to. I actually went back to the bible to see if Adventist teachings could be found there and guess what - they don't exist outside of the writings of Ellen White! I have a wonderful grace filled relationship with Christ today which is something the law can never give.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You obviously harbour anger and malice towards your former faith...

FWIW, time is short and I wouldn't waste it looking backwards.

 

[fozzy]

Your repeated attempts to make every post personal and confrontational are noted. This thread is on the Sabbath so I would have thought you as an SDA would have something to say about the Sabbath. Is it a day of rules for you or just going to church? How do you spend your Sabbath? If I were to invite you over to my house (I know that's a stretch) and I threw some steaks on the grill and offered you a beer and we went out back to throw some lawn darts would you be able to handle that? Or would that be some kind of Sabbath violation?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It's my one day to spend as much time drawing closer to God as I can without distractions... I try to honour Him in all I do... turning my foot away from doing my own pleasure is not a burden to me, it is a privilege and allows me to unplug from the world to recharge for the onslaught of the week to come. I am sorry that you never had that type of Sabbath experience.

God owns all 7 days and he has unselfishly given me 6 of them for my work and only requests one for himself... why would I miss that encounter after all He's done for me?

 

[fozzy]

You only partially answered the question. What I wanted to know was if I invited you into my home would you eat my food and drink my drinks and participate in my activities on the Sabbath? This is a yes or no question and there is no shame in saying no. I am not interested in your old covenant Sabbath activities anymore so if they were offered to me I would say no without hesitation. The Sabbath is very important in our understanding of God and his righteousness. In your answer you mentioned drawing closer to God and honoring him in all that you do and Isa. 58:13 which is the stereotypical view of Sabbath keeping.

In the new covenant it is not about what I do for God but what God thru the person of Jesus Christ has done for me. Christ has accomplished something for every human being and he wants us to understand that. Sabbath keeping with this in mind is radically different than Isa. 58:13. Paul made some amazing statements in 1st Corinthians where he said all things were lawful to him but he would not be brought under the power of any. Paul had the freedom to do whatever he wanted but he rarely exercised his freedom because someone would always be offended. The Sabbath is the same way where those who live by the law will always be offended by those who live by grace.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Sorry you missed the implied answer in my previous post... no, I would not come over to your place on Sabbath just to entertain ourselves. I have nothing against temperate use of most things including alcohol and meat, so that is not the issue. If we were going to be doing Bibles study or even having unified conversation on spiritual matters, then I would be in like Flynn.

 

[DarylFawcett]

Yes, the Sabbath predates the Ten Commandments given by the 2nd Person of the Godhead at Mt. Sinai, which means that the Sabbath was in effect for all mankind from the Garden of Eden before sin and outside of that same garden after sin. The Sabbath was so important, that it was also included in those Ten Commandments.

And yes, the Sabbath was made for man, all mankind, and not only for the Jewish people, which is why all mankind, both Jews and Gentiles, should be observing it today.

And just what were Jesus' commandments? You know every time the word commandment is used in the NT is not a license to go back to the OT and keep the law. Are you even aware that the law was given to the Jewish people and not the Gentiles. Gentiles were never required to keep the law, ever! They came from paganism and idolatry and were brought into the church to live by faith in Jesus Christ!

Which brings us to the Sabbath. I can't even mention the Sabbath in polite society because Adventists have turned it into such a badge of legalism with their law worship. The Sabbath predates the law and the Jews and actually sin itself. It goes all the way back to creation and is the one thing that we had in a perfect world before sin even came into being. The Sabbath was made for mankind not the Jewish people. It does not need the law to prop it up.

 

[fozzy]

So it sounds like we are in agreement then. Never thought I would say that! No one has a problem with Adventists who go to church on the Sabbath or Saturday because even Paul says - He that regards the day regards it to the Lord…let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind Rom. 14:6,5. Sabbath keeping is not the problem. The problem comes when Adventists constantly go to the law and the 4th commandment for their Sabbath defense as Christians. We as Christians are not under the law anymore and by constantly going back there you are turning the Sabbath into a badge of legalism which is exactly what the Jews did. Just look at this forum where the only place the Sabbath is mentioned is in connection with the law. Christians are under Grace which is God’s unmerited favor that is bestowed upon the world because of his goodness not ours. The Sabbath needs to be presented in this light as a symbol of the rest that can only be found in Christ. That rest is freedom from sin so the Sabbath is part of the gospel not the law. The Sabbath needs to be divorced from the law and married to the gospel. It’s eventually going to happen with or without your help because the word of God can never fail.

 

[CynamonKis]

The Sabbath was not given as a "commandment" at creation.

 

[fozzy]

The Sabbath was not given as a "commandment" at creation.

This is correct, the Sabbath was not a commandment at creation and it is not a commandment in the NT either. When we read thru the NT very little is even said about the Sabbath. The thrust of every message and epistle was Jesus Christ and him crucified. This whole ‘commandment keeping’ mentality comes from one famous verse found in Rev. 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This verse is found directly after the prohibition from worshipping the beast and his image so it does relate to the last days where there will be a group of saints who keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus. Mainstream Christianity has dealt with this by having the church raptured out at the very end leaving a group of ethnic or Messianic Jews who take the gospel to the world. They are seen as the 144,000 and all verses relating to Israel are applied to them. They have abandoned the idea of ‘Spiritual Israel’ which is found all throughout the NT and place an inflexible barrier between the church and Israel. The errors of this perspective are too numerous to address in one post.

Adventists have built their entire end-time understanding around this verse. They accept the idea of ‘Spiritual Israel’ which applies to believing Jews and Gentiles but then advocate the heresy of the Judaizers who taught that believing in Christ was not good enough and the law had to be kept as well. They pervert the gospel of justification by faith alone and have such a hard-line mentality that all mention of the law being done away with is met with stubborn unbelief. They can never see the Sabbath apart from the law and so are married to their delusions.

As with most things in the bible, the truth lies very close to error. The author of Revelation was John and John the beloved disciple had more to say about commandment keeping than any of the apostles. When we read thru John’s writings his understanding of commandment keeping was belief in Christ and unselfish love for our brother (John 13:34 15:12 1John 2;3;4;5 2John 4-6). The new commandment that Jesus gave is to love and love is the fulfilling of the law. This is what a commandment keeper is and seeing that the faith of Jesus is mentioned separately then the commandments of God are without doubt the love of God written in the heart. Love is God’s character that will be on display by 12,000 members from each tribe. His character is so vast that it takes thousands of people to reflect every facet.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

When we read thru the NT very little is even said about the Sabbath.

A lot of people think that Jesus' connection to the Sabbath when He was here on earth was because He was a Jew.... the writing of the New Testament were not for the Jews as they were compiled for later generations of all that He taught. Because they were meant for gentiles, the use of the word Sabbath in most pre-ascension passages would have been unnecessary... unless God meant for us to know these things.

Here are a few mentions of Jesus and the Sabbath while He was on this earth...

Matthew 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12
How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Matthew 24:20
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

Mark 6:2
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue:

Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 13:10
And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.

John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Now lets look at a few of the many more passages that were given to us for our admonition after Christ's ministry on earth was done...

Acts 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

The previous poster had given a verse as one of the only passages that we cite for keeping the Commandments as new covenant Christians, so lets see if there is more that just one or two...


Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So, by the weight of evidence to the contrary, the previous poster has been shown to be in error in his judgement.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The new commandment that Jesus gave is to love and love is the fulfilling of the law. This is what a commandment keeper is...

You don't think you can keep the Commandments in love?

I don't sleep with my neighbors wife because of love for him... I don't kill someone or even harbour anger in my heart because I love them... I don't worship idols because I love God... I keep the Sabbath because it is Holy and sanctified and I love God enough to do as He has asked.

What is so hard to understand about that??

 

[fozzy]

You don't think you can keep the Commandments in love?

I don't sleep with my neighbors wife because of love for him... I don't kill someone or even harbour anger in my heart because I love them... I don't worship idols because I love God... I keep the Sabbath because it is Holy and sanctified and I love God enough to do as He has asked.

What is so hard to understand about that??

The obedience of law and the obedience of love are light years apart. They don't look the same or act the same because they are not the same. The motivations are different, the thoughts are different, those who have God's love could care less about the law. The law teaches people to trust in themselves and love teaches people to look away from themselves to the spotless righteousness of Christ. The law is a giant tar pit that sucks people down to hell. They get stuck in it and don't even realize the danger until it's too late.