Education

What is your worldview and education level?

  • Creationist - highschool dropout

  • Creationist - highschool diploma

  • Creationist - college/university degree in non-sciences

  • Creationist - college/university degree in science

  • TE - highschool dropout

  • TE - highschool diploma

  • TE - college/university degree in non-sciences

  • TE - college/university degree in science


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Robert the Pilegrim

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pastorkevin73 said:
I'm not so sure how education makes what one person has discovered more trustworthy than another.
To expand a bit on Wiltor's response, a somewhat simplistic but not altogether inaccurate description of science is that it involves a bunch of people, who have spent considerable time studying a subject, all trying to prove each other wrong.

The individuals are quite often flawed but the process, while imperfect, in the long term tends to grind out a good understanding of the physical universe.
 
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steen

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pastorkevin73 said:
I'm not so sure how education makes what one person has discovered more trustworthy than another.
Thankfully, the Scientific Method ensures the honesty of the results. You HAVE looked at the Scientific Method, right? because we sure have asked you to numerous times. That's why your remark seems so odd here. As if you didn't know anything about the checks and balances of the Scientific Method.

Yeah, a person with a doctorate has more study in a field, but doesn't make them more trustworthy. There are people at all levels of education who deceive.
hence the Scientific Method, which weeds out the liars and crackpots.

At the same time there are people who don't have a piece of paper with their name and seal on it, but are just a brilliant and understanding of a topic.
Sure. Now, I have yet to see even ONE creationist who actually knows and understand the Scientific theory of Evolution, or even the very basic aspect of science, the Scientific Method.

So that really is a strawman here, with no bearing on reality.

Find me a creationist who actually KNOWS and UNDERSTAND Evolution and knows what it is they are arguing against. because what we nearly always see from creationist claims about Evolution is frankly ignorant blabbering.
 
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pastorkevin73

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Willtor said:
To be sure, you, PastorKevin73, could publish in a peer reviewed journal if you were to make observations and propose and execute tests to distinguish your ideas from those of others. The difference between a person with an accredited PhD and a person without one is that the person who has the degree has testimony - on the authority of others within the scientific community - that he has undergone a substantial breadth and depth of study and has demonstrated the capacity for original and rigorous thought. This is not to say that someone without a PhD has not done any of these things. But someone who has done these things and come out with a PhD rightfully has credibility in his area of study.

Again, this is not to suggest that he is necessarily right about what he says. In fact, a journal is not going to publish something by Richard Dawkins merely because it is from Richard Dawkins. It has to stand on its own merits. But the fact that he is widely published makes what he says, within the field of evolutionary science, credible.

Thus, when there is a panel of people with PhDs in evolutionary biology saying that evolution doesn't say a particular thing, but says something else, being disputed by a panel of people without PhDs saying that it does say the first thing, the common observer can't help but wonder why one whole panel is missing PhDs in the appropriate fields. Consider, next, that the panel with PhDs consists of the movers-and-shakers of the evolutionary world. Who better ought to know what evolution says and doesn't say? The papers that define the science, itself, are largely written by those very people.

In a simpler sense, consider the difference between someone who has spent his life observing a particular thing in nature and someone who has not. Certainly the second person could totally refute everything the first person has come to think. But this is not a common scenario. We cannot suppose that this is the case with every person who argues against someone with a PhD. As Augustine says, "Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics." (Augustine, "The Literal Meaning of Genesis" ch.19)

I am by no means down grading the work a person does for a Phd. It takes a massive amount of work. I am 2 credits away from my masters and know how much work that is, a Phd I am sure takes much more work. All I am saying is we shouldn't discredit what a person who does not have higher education has to say as they may having something of great sifnigicance to contribute to a discussion.

BTW, I find it interesting that most TEs call Hovind a liar and his education does not matter. I am by no means defending Hovind, I just find that it's interesting that there seems to be a double standard.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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pastorkevin73 said:
BTW, I find it interesting that most TEs call Hovind a liar and his education does not matter. I am by no means defending Hovind, I just find that it's interesting that there seems to be a double standard.

We do not say his education does not matter, quite the opposite, his fake degrees with no real course work behind them matter a lot.

If I pay somebody to print me up a document that says I have a Theology degree without doing any of the work that is required to actually earn that degree, would you give my words on theology the same weight as someone who has actually studied theology at a real school?

Why or why not?
 
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Willtor

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pastorkevin73 said:
I am by no means down grading the work a person does for a Phd. It takes a massive amount of work. I am 2 credits away from my masters and know how much work that is, a Phd I am sure takes much more work. All I am saying is we shouldn't discredit what a person who does not have higher education has to say as they may having something of great sifnigicance to contribute to a discussion.

BTW, I find it interesting that most TEs call Hovind a liar and his education does not matter. I am by no means defending Hovind, I just find that it's interesting that there seems to be a double standard.

It works against Hovind because his degree is not accredited, but he makes it out to be legit. If he acts dishonestly in order to acquire ethos, it makes a person extra wary of what he says. Note, in my previous post, I said that an accredited degree is valuable. The "accredited" indicates approval by the field. Without it, the degree is meaningless. In Hovind's case, it works against him because he has worked very hard to give himself credibility using it. This is extremely dishonest. Regardless of whether he has a diploma-mill diploma, the fact that he treats it as an object of status is the part that ought to trouble a person.
 
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Dannager

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Driver said:
Is opposition to evolution or opposing viewpoints allowed in public schools? Was it allowed at your private school?
Allowed? Why would anyone allow something other than what is accepted in the scientific community to be taught to students? There isn't any sound opposition to evolution. If there were, and the scientific community held it to be valid, students would be informed. As it stands, though, there isn't any opposition to be "allowed".
It is estimated that today's bacherlor's degree is about the equivalent of an eighth-grade education of 50 years ago.

see
http://deliberatedumbingdown.com/
Oops, you've been duped by the old 8th grade test prank. For a summary of and explanation on the piece that started the whole "8th graders were smarter than today's college graduates" nonsense, take a look at http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.htm.

I should hope that clears up a couple of things.
 
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KerrMetric

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jereth said:
Sorry mate, I am a doctor and I beg to differ :D

Yes there is a lot of "art" to medicine, but plenty of hard science too including knowledge of biochemistry, molecular biology, genetics, anatomy, physiology and microbiology. All of these subjects make the case for evolution very convincingly.

Medical education for the MD is not really science. It is rote learning and basic principles that are usually totally forgotten about by the practising doctor. It is like an engineer learning basic physics. He learns it as a background tool not as a physicist.

My wife is an MD and a PhD and she always says the MD education is a trade shool to produce doctors not a an education in science. I know many medical doctors and I doubt the ones who actually practice medicine know or remember a damn thing about fundamental science since they were never really taught it. This is the reason my wife did a PhD in virology after her MD because she hated the fact she had left science behind and wanted to do basic research not prescribe cough medicine or refer someone for a CAT scan.
 
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steen

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KerrMetric said:
My wife is an MD and a PhD and she always says the MD education is a trade shool to produce doctors not a an education in science
There is that little detail of intense science education before medical school. Rather a lot of science there.
 
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KerrMetric

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steen said:
There is that little detail of intense science education before medical school. Rather a lot of science there.

Are you joking? Many medical students don't even do a science degree prior and even if they do it is a Bachelors degree only. Heck, in many countries a medical degree is taken straight from high school as a 6 year degree.

A Bachelors degree in science is not really much science at all - especially in the US where a degree is a lesser qualification than in many other countries.
 
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jereth

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KerrMetric said:
Medical education for the MD is not really science. It is rote learning and basic principles that are usually totally forgotten about by the practising doctor. It is like an engineer learning basic physics. He learns it as a background tool not as a physicist.

I know what you mean KerrMetric, but clinical medicine is also strongly based on the scientific method -- we won't trust a drug unless it's been proven to work in closely scrutinised trials. These days they're always asking: "what's the evidence for this treatment working?"

Anyway, the point I'm making is that modern medicine has a basis in science, and that science makes a very good case for evolution being a sound theory :D

BTW, I couldn't help noticing the poll result. I have to admit being surprised. I was always under the impression that there were more YECists who graduated from science.
 
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artybloke

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BA Hons Degree in Theology, teaching diploma, considerable knowledge by reading of English & American literature.

The scientific/historical method is at least partially applicable in all academic fields, by the way. Hypothesis, evidence, conclusion etc is the usual way of writing essays even in non-scientific fields. Though obviously, the evidence tends to be a lot more fuzzy and more open to personal opinion.
 
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KerrMetric

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jereth said:
BTW, I couldn't help noticing the poll result. I have to admit being surprised. I was always under the impression that there were more YECists who graduated from science.

I'm shocked there are even two with votes. And I am actually interested in what science they took.

I am almost willing to bet it is not a "science" but something like psychology or geography which I wouldn't classify as a science.

Could the posters who voted for YEC and science degree please post what the science was.
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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pastorkevin73 said:
It would be good to see from all who voted college/university degree in science to distinguish which science discipline their degree is in.
Physics B.A. and M.S.
In the middle of taking my comps for my M.S. in Computer Science (which isn't a science degree in my case.)
 
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random_guy

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BS in Math and Computer Science, and working on a Masters in CS. I consider my degree a science degree mostly because I focused on the theorical areas, and I'm currently doing scientific research combining biology and computer science. However, I can also see how some people might not agree that CS is a science degree. I guess it depends on the coursework that each student took. CS is a weird major since it can be classified all over the place. Some schools have CS under the school of arts, other the school of science, and at my university, the school of engineering.
 
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Melethiel

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KerrMetric said:
BA Physics
PhD Theoretical Physics
My dad has a PhD in Physics, which basically means I get access to all the rooms with expensive gadgets at the university which students usually stay out of because of all the "danger" signs. :p
 
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