ecumenism

[GreekOrthodox]

Kristos said this better than I did. I studied canon law in seminary and it becomes a huge morass if you try to follow ALL the canons (which is what I was trying to show). And as Kristos says some are doctrinal and even with these have to be interpreted for new circumstances. For example, as I recall, it was the Russians who first argued for chrismating Protestant converts rather than rebaptising them, based on canons dealing with earlier heresies. Coptic and Orthodox churches in the Middle East tend to be a little more ecumenical towards each other primarily because of the constant threat of Islam. Even here in the US, Holy Cross seminary always has a handful of Coptic students because the Copts do not have a US seminary. No those students did not commune with us, but we did partake in prayers together.

 

[BraveMommy]

Thank you for citing the actual canon youwere referring to. Sound pretty clear.on my way into work I thought about the purpose of these church festivals...to earn lots of money...why do we need so much money....to supplement the tithings and offerings & pledges our members struggle & sacrifice to pay, but it's not enough....why...why do our priests need to be paid nearly 1/2 a million a year Plus benefits? Why can't they, men of God, be satisfied with far less?...many people in our State earn less than $50,000. and raise families on that...if we paid our priests $50,000. (more than many) then we'd have the funds to help the homeless that sleep on our Church steps and on park benches across the street with real shelter, food & weather appropriate clubbing and wouldn't need to have festivals...something very wrong about the whole "need" fort these festivals...much wisdom in the Canons.

 

[Lukaris]

Thank you for citing the actual canon youwere referring to. Sound pretty clear.on my way into work I thought about the purpose of these church festivals...to earn lots of money...why do we need so much money....to supplement the tithings and offerings & pledges our members struggle & sacrifice to pay, but it's not enough....why...why do our priests need to be paid nearly 1/2 a million a year Plus benefits? Why can't they, men of God, be satisfied with far less?...many people in our State earn less than $50,000. and raise families on that...if we paid our priests $50,000. (more than many) then we'd have the funds to help the homeless that sleep on our Church steps and on park benches across three street with real shelter, food & weather appropriate clubbing and wouldn't need to have festivals...something very wrong about the whole "need" fort these festivals...much wisdom in the Canons.

Where are you getting these salary figures? Our parish priest earns well less than $50,000 (let alone 1/2 $mil) per year. I wish our parish could be more proactive in charity, although we fortunately practice some, but we also need to regrettably survive on sold weekly pasta dinners to the public. We recently hosted a fund raiser in our church hall for Syrian refugees & netted $60,000 though with a Jesuit group with no liturgical interaction; is this considered "ecumenism" by some?

 

[BraveMommy]

May I suggest that you worry a little less about who is following which canon? I would be willing to wager that there isn't anyone who follows them all, especially among the clergy. Any priest who was ordained before 35 is in violation (which probably covers about 80% of the priests out there). Pretty much all of the bishops in North America are in violation of canon law as their diocese overlap. I'm not saying we should ignore the canons, but we can't get wrapped up in them. At a high level, there are two types of canons - doctrinal & pastoral/organizational. Doctrinal canons concern just that - Church doctrine, which does not change and we should be ready to defend. These issues being discussed here are not doctrinal. Pastoral/organizational canons are just that, and as the chief pastor of the Diocese, the bishop really has the final say. We can't presume to know the pastoral considerations that go into his decisions. He may apply economia as he sees fit. If he wishes to ordain a 23 year old man, then that is his business - perhaps there is an urgent need for a priest at a mission parish. There is no threat to Church doctrine by his application of economia to the canon that requires a man to be 35.

What I hear you saying is that some of what the Church in Councils determined were to be holy Canons matter & some don't and it's up to the individual Bishop to decide what needs to be obeyed and what doesn't because they have the final authority to make these decisions.

That sounds exactly like Roman Catholicism who give the Bishop of Rome the final authority over each Council, the Roman Catholic Church is based on a monarchy, which is very different that our Orthodox Church which is based on Councils aka a conciliar Church.

What I hear being said is that we need to NOT really be a full-fledged conciliar Church, but more of a monarchy based Church because the individual Bishop should have the authority to pick and choose what of each Council's decisions/canons is to be actually practiced.

This sounds very wrong...the Orthodox Church has as many "Roman Catholic Popes" as they have Bishops...How is that okay?...What am I missing here?

 

[BraveMommy]

Where are you getting these salary figures? Our parish priest earns well less than $50,000 (let alone 1/2 $mil) per year. I wish our parish could be more proactive in charity, although we fortunately practice some, but we also need to regrettably survive on sold weekly pasta dinners to the public. We recently hosted a fund raiser in our church hall for Syrian refugees & netted $60,000 though with a Jesuit group with no liturgical interaction; is this considered "ecumenism" by some?

The Budget is published in the Monthly Newsletter:

Just the Salary section:
year to date (as of mid-September) actual Salary paid $301,467. but per the budget it should have already been $311,310. - in other words we're lacking, we need to pick up the pace of our donations to meet the salary expectation.

 

[Lukaris]

The Budget is published in the Monthly Newsletter:

Just the Salary section:
year to date (as of mid-September) actual Salary paid $301,467. but per the budget it should have already been $311,310. - in other words we're lacking, we need to pick up the pace of our donations to meet the salary expectation.

I took your statement too "ecumenically" since I am Antiochian & I doubt any our priests make even $50 K per year ( I would like to add our parish priest makes well less than $40K per year). I am sorry for any misunderstanding on my part although such a salary is hard for me to comprehend.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

So your priest is the only employee?

This is the Diocese of Denver salary guidelines.

http://www.denver.goarch.org/protocols/2012-Protocols/protocol-12-13_encl_1.pdf

Denver's rates are pretty typical.

 

[BraveMommy]

I took your statement too "ecumenically" since I am Antiochian & I doubt any our priests make even $50 K per year ( I would like to add our parish priest makes well less than $40K per year). I am sorry for any misunderstanding on my part although such a salary is hard for me to comprehend.

no apology necessary at all.

This thread this morning really got me to think about it though.

Had no idea that the Canons forbid Church Festivals...that was new information for me. Now that I've pondered the whole thing, I totally get why - money shouldn't be our bottom line, but practicing the Orthodox Faith handed down from the Councils ought to be!!!

I am now resolved to get my hands on a copy of the Rudder and read the whole thing and conform my life and the life of my family to canonical (literally) Orthodoxy.

And if I find in the Canons that the individual Bishop (not in Council) have been given the authority to modify or do away with any of the Canons, then I will find out which ones our Bishop has changed or thrown out and practice that. (I hope to find this to be the case)

But if I find in the Canons that I am required to break away from a Bishop who does not keep the Canons whole & unchanged, then I will have to break away and take my family to one of the many genuine/true/old Orthodox Churches who have not waivered from practicing Orthodoxy as found in the canons. (I hope this isn't the case)

 

[GreekOrthodox]

BTW, the Rudder is 1000+ pages. Have fun!

Oh btw, one interpretation to one law means you must never watch TV, see a movie or watch your kids in a play.

Oh some canons contradict each other... I'll let you find them

 

[BraveMommy]

So your priest is the only employee?

This is the Diocese of Denver salary guidelines.

Denver's rates are pretty typical.

We're not in the Diocese of Denver.

We do have many regular part-time & full-time volunteers, but you're right there was a 20 hr a week part-time minimum wage office assistant, so if she worked 52 weeks a year, you can take out $8,320. out of the approximately $441,000. a year "Salary" to pay for her portion - although her position was cut a few years back because of "lack of funds".

 

[BraveMommy]

BTW, the Rudder is 1000+ pages. Have fun!

Oh btw, one interpretation to one law means you must never watch TV, see a movie or watch your kids in a play.

Oh some canons contradict each other... I'll let you find them

the key word is "interpretation" why read into it what's not there - TV didn't exist in days the canons were written...(although I don't watch TV anyway)

contradictions...those exist in the Bible as well...do you suggest we throw out the Bible too?

 

[Kristos]

What I hear you saying is that some of what the Church in Councils determined were to be holy Canons matter & some don't and it's up to the individual Bishop to decide what needs to be obeyed and what doesn't because they have the final authority to make these decisions.

That sounds exactly like Roman Catholicism who give the Bishop of Rome the final authority over each Council, the Roman Catholic Church is based on a monarchy, which is very different that our Orthodox Church which is based on Councils aka a conciliar Church.

What I hear being said is that we need to NOT really be a full-fledged conciliar Church, but more of a monarchy based Church because the individual Bishop should have the authority to pick and choose what of each Council's decisions/canons is to be actually practiced.

This sounds very wrong...the Orthodox Church has as many "Roman Catholic Popes" as they have Bishops...How is that okay?...What am I missing here?

I feel like you have missed the gist of what I said. I'm not sure how to reframe it, so I'm not going to try. Maybe I'm making too many assumptions.

 

[Lukaris]

no apology necessary at all.

This thread this morning really got me to think about it though.

Had no idea that the Canons forbid Church Festivals...that was new information for me. Now that I've pondered the whole thing, I totally get why - money shouldn't be our bottom line, but practicing the Orthodox Faith handed down from the Councils ought to be!!!

I am now resolved to get my hands on a copy of the Rudder and read the whole thing and conform my life and the life of my family to canonical (literally) Orthodoxy.

And if I find in the Canons that the individual Bishop (not in Council) have been given the authority to modify or do away with any of the Canons, then I will find out which ones our Bishop has changed or thrown out and practice that. (I hope to find this to be the case)

But if I find in the Canons that I am required to break away from a Bishop who does not keep the Canons whole & unchanged, then I will have to break away and take my family to one of the many genuine/true/old Orthodox Churches who have not waivered from practicing Orthodoxy as found in the canons. (I hope this isn't the case)

I think if more laity would just read the Bible, their prayer books, & something as simple as the Didache, basic understanding of the faith & litrugical awareness in worship & veneration could be a minor miracle and the Holy Spirit would guide us more than taking an archaic code book approach in using canons that probably often lack clarity to 21st c. laypersons.

 

[BraveMommy]

BTW, the Rudder is 1000+ pages. Have fun!

I'm sure it'll be enlightening and positively life-changing

Do you know off hand what the total # of Canons there are in the Rudder? I'm trying to figure out how to divy up the reading of it.

I've read 1,000 page novels in less than a week, but I think this will need to be approached more slowly and, of course, prayerfully

 

[GreekOrthodox]

The Rudder is all of the canons from all the Ecumenical Councils, some locals, and then commentaries by various individuals.

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgics/The_Rudder_or_Pedalion.pdf

As for the theater, the index of Rudder equates TV and videos as theater in the home and therefore forbidden to ALL Christians.

Theaters:
Christians arc not permitted to attend ......................
They promote lewdness, fornication and every evil ...........
Are demonic spectacles (T. V. and videos are theater in the home) .......

 

[BraveMommy]

The Rudder is all of the canons from all the Ecumenical Councils, some locals, and then commentaries by various individuals.

As for the theater, the index of Rudder equates TV and videos as theater in the home and therefore forbidden to ALL Christians.

Theaters:
Christians arc not permitted to attend ......................
They promote lewdness, fornication and every evil ...........
Are demonic spectacles (T. V. and videos are theater in the home) .......

Who authored the index of the Rudder? Was the index itself also produced via a Council? If not, then the index wouldn't be inspired as are the Canons themselves.

(But honestly that is a pretty good description of what T.V. shows and movies are - the vast majority do promote lewdness & fornication - and it's been studied and found that when someone watches T.V. their brains pretty much stop functioning. But, I know that there are cartoons made to teach children about the lives of the Saints, like Nicholas, the boy who became Santa and movies that are produced to educate about the Orthodox Faith like the Ancient Faith DVD.)

I'm already seeing the great wisdom in the Canons today by what you've shared about the Festivals & T.V., it's definitely counter-cultural, the narrow path, but in a way that I can see is beneficial for individual spiritual growth and and for society as a whole, if put into practiced. I can't wait to learn more! I'm sure it'll be a challenge, but God says He's "yoke is easy and His burden is light".

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Actually according to the canons, you cannot be a member of any Orthodox church in the United States that is a member of SCOBA. This includes the GOArch, OCA, the Antiochians, or anyone else on this list: Jurisdictions | Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas

According to the 50th canon of Nicea:
There shall be but one bishop of one city, and one parochus of one town; also the incumbent, whether bishop or parish priest, shall not be removed in favour of a successor desired by some of the people unless he has been convicted of manifest crime.

So since the every member of SCOBA violates this rule, that leaves very few alternatives.

Im trying to dissuade you from trying to live your life or judge the church on the Pedalion. The rules are meant to guide the church as a whole not as set of rules for laity to judge who is doing what. You cannot follow every rule set forth because some dont apply anymore and some contradict each other. Others have already pointed out that we dont follow the rules concerning the age of clergy. If you want to stop the Greeks from dancing at a wedding, you do so at your own risk.

Finally, according to the canons: In fact, women are not allowed to let their voice be heard at all within the sacred temple of the church. They may, of course, sing and
chant in their hearts praises and blessings to God, but not with their lips.

Enjoy...

 

[BraveMommy]

Actually according to the canons, you cannot be a member of any Orthodox church in the United States that is a member of SCOBA. This includes the GOArch, OCA, the Antiochians, or anyone else on this list:
Jurisdictions | Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas[/url]

According to the 50th canon of Nicea:
There shall be but one bishop of one city, and one parochus of one town; also the incumbent, whether bishop or parish priest, shall not be removed in favour of a successor desired by some of the people unless he has been convicted of manifest crime.

So since the every member of SCOBA violates this rule, that leaves very few alternatives.

Im trying to dissuade you from trying to live your life or judge the church on the Pedalion. The rules are meant to guide the church as a whole not as set of rules for laity to judge who is doing what. You cannot follow every rule set forth because some dont apply anymore and some contradict each other. Others have already pointed out that we dont follow the rules concerning the age of clergy. If you want to stop the Greeks from dancing at a wedding, you do so at your own risk.

Finally, according to the canons: In fact, women are not allowed to let their voice be heard at all within the sacred temple of the church. They may, of course, sing and
chant in their hearts praises and blessings to God, but not with their lips.

Enjoy...

I only need to judge myself & judge what is best way to raise my family in the Truth as God revealed it and we know he revealed it to us through the inspired Sacred Scripture and the inspired Holy Canons.

I believe there will be 3 possible discoveries I will make after I read the Canons:

1. I will discover that I (& my family) don't have to follow the Canons because each individual Bishop has the authority to over-ride them
2. I will discover that I (& my family) do need to follow the Canons, but it's okay to be under a Bishop who doesn't
3. I will discover that I (& my family) do need to follow the Canons and must place myself/family under a Bishop who also follows the Canons.

The expect result regardless of the discovery, I fully believe I will learn so much about the Orthodox history and richness and will learn so much and gain such a deep understanding of why we do (or are supposed to do) things the way we do.

This is very exciting!!!

P.S. I hope it doesn't come to this, but IF SCOBA truly is unCANONical & IF Bishops don't have the authority to over-ride the Canons then there actually are many options left in the U.S.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Did you read that some canons contradict each other so it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow them???

Never mind, you're determined to declare yourself a bishop so, do whatever.

 

[BraveMommy]

Did you read that some canons contradict each other so it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow them???

Never mind, you're determined to declare yourself a bishop so, do whatever.

I read that YOU claim that the Canons contract each other. Even if that's true and I don't know that it is, the Bible also contradicts itself...are you going to throw out the Bible, too?

That's funny that you claim I'm "determined to declare" myself "a bishop" for wanting to read the Canons yet you claim to have already read the Canons - so from your own reasoning YOU must think that you're a bishop.

Please tell me please why you think that no one besides yourself ought to read the Canons.