'Easy to be an atheist if you agnore science' [moved]

[TagliatelliMonster]

Actually, truths are arrived at via logic alone and not just via experimentation in attempts to falsify them.

First, that is demonstrably false.
Second, that also ignores how we obtain our logic and develop it further.

Logic is ultimately based in empirical reality. You do not know what is logical in advance.

It used to be logical that the sun orbits the earth. You can literally see the sun come up on one side, move across the sky and see it settle at the other side, and observe that process repeat itself indefinatly.

It was perfectly sound logic which matches the observations.
It was NEW DATA that showed that perfectly logical conclusion based on observation to be false. Suddenly, that perfectly logical conclusion, was no longer logical.

Logic is informed by, and derived from, observable reality.
Logic is, in a very real sense, no more or less then an abstraction of the patterns we observe in reality.

The existence of a dark matter was such a truth. Effects were observed and an existence was assumed. No?

I've never seen dark matter ideas being presented as "truth", from the relevant sources.

Also, falsification is not restricted to the lab. It is a mental process involving logical principles as well. In fact, I can reject an idea that you propose merely based on logic without having to subject it to lab testing. If you are unaware of that simple basic fact then you need to take a course where the scientific method is meticulously explained as I did. Otherwise you will tend to be vigorously expounding from ignorance.

I can name you a couple of instances where you would have been wrong by dissmissing a certain proposition only by using "logic" arguments.

Relativity, for one. Quantum mechanics in general, is another.
Both of these went directly against everything we thought was reasonable. It completely defied our common sense / logic.

We tought it was a logical statement to say that "an object can't be in 2 places at once", but then along came weird particles that were measured "here", while showing up "there".

What you can do, without additional data, is point out known logical flaws in an argument. Fallacies. Self-contradictions. But that's not really the same.

The:
"Well, I still cain't see cuz I still cain't see!" response isn't very convincing.

The "i know what is logical in advance" isn't either.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

About seeing what should be self evident-please note that in that case you aren't opposing me. You are actually opposing what Paul tells us in the book of Romans, that God's attributes and his Godship are clearly detectable in the things made.

It doesn't matter if you said it, or Paul, or little John, or Captain Kirk.
If it's wrong, it's wrong.

So it doesn't matter who said that it is "self-evident". Clearly, it is not self-evident at all.

I can declare it to be self-evidence that everything was created last tuesday, but that wouldn't have any meaning either.

Both Animal and Human Life Reflect God’s Creative Power

“Ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the seainform you. Which of these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this? In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.” (Job 12:7-10)

The Sky Points to God’s Glory

“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” (Psalm 19:1-4)

Creation Was God’s First Missionary

“Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse.” (Romans 1:20)

Nature Brings Praise to God

“Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his heavenly hosts. Praise him, sun and moon, praise him, all you shining stars. Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies. Let them praise the name of the Lord, for he commanded and they were created. He set them in place for ever and ever; he gave a decree that will never pass away.” (Psalm 148:1-6)

Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...through-his-creation.html#yLFiccfz1sdip8ZV.99

Didn't we just have a conversation, where you fiercly protested when I said/implied that your ID model is fundamentally a religious model?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Which demonstrates that you don't know what a hypothesis is and upon what a hypothesis is based. In fact, that comment demonstrates that you don't actually know what the scientific method really involves. Which in turn means that you are in no position to have a productive discussion about it. So yes! It definitely is useless!

You don't know that for a hypothesis to qualify as a scientific hypothesis, it needs to be falsifiable?

Wow.... And you dare to lecture people on the scientific method? For real?

Ow my.....