'Easy to be an atheist if you agnore science' [moved]

Radrook

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There's nothing to discuss, anyway. Radrook has apparently backed away from his proposal that design is characterized by organization towards a purpose (if that's what he was proposing) and hasn't offered anything else to replace it.
Not at all. You offer no compelling reasons why the concept of an ID should be rejected. In short, you offer no effective rebuttal. Then, when you offer no effective rebuttal, you claim that the discussion is getting nowhere. Offer me a rebuttal.

Explain to me why matter should display mind at work. Then explain to me why chemicals display a brilliant planning mind characteristics and why you under different circumstances would immediately recognize that there is an intellect involved but not when it comes to nature. If indeed you deny being inconsistent the tell me how not.

You have done neither of these things. Instead you claim that I don't wish to discuss matter or else that you can't understand or see. Such responses are not rebuttals. They do not promote discussion. They evade discussion and in that way admit that you have no rebuttal at all but merely prefer to believe what you choose to believe because your atheist scientists say so.


MATHEMATICS IN NATURE PROVES INTELLIGENT DESIGN

The reoccurring mathematical patterns in nature are too advanced to have been created through evolution. Humans were only able to generate these complex forms with a computer. Chaotic evolution cannot generate symmetrical ordered forms.



 
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Speedwell

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Not at all. You offer no compelling reasons why it should be rejected. In short, you offer no effective rebuttal. Then, when you offer no effective rebuttal, you claim that the discussion is getting nowhere. Offer me a rebuttal.
So you do still stand behind it. You could have just said "yes" several posts ago and avoided all the hassle.

In fact, I am not to the point of offering compelling reasons why it should be rejected; I may, in the end, not find any. I merely would like to ask you some questions about it, but that is impossible because you would just regard them as attacks and denials.
 
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Radrook

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So you do still stand behind it. You could have just said "yes" several posts ago and avoided all the hassle.

In fact, I am not to the point of offering compelling reasons why it should be rejected; I may, in the end, not find any. I merely would like to ask you some questions about it, but that is impossible because you would just regard them as attacks and denials.



MATHEMATICS IN NATURE PROVES INTELLIGENT DESIGN

The reoccurring mathematical patterns in nature are too advanced to have been created through evolution. Humans were only able to generate these complex forms with a computer. Chaotic evolution cannot generate symmetrical ordered forms.


 
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Speedwell

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MATHEMATICS IN NATURE PROVES INTELLIGENT DESIGN

The reoccurring mathematical patterns in nature are too advanced to have been created through evolution. Humans were only able to generate these complex forms with a computer. Chaotic evolution cannot generate symmetrical ordered forms.


Several questions spring to mind here--the first of which is, what is "chaotic evolution?"--but I can't ask them, because you would just regard it as an attack or a denial.
 
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SteveB28

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Several questions spring to mind here--the first of which is, what is "chaotic evolution?"--but I can't ask them, because you would just regard it as an attack or a denial.

Yes....and another point to raise is that the mathematical patterns we see in the natural world are DEscriptive, not PREscriptive!

We can, for example, DESCRIBE the spirals in a nautilus shell, the rows of petals in a daisy, or the shape of a spiral galaxy, using the Fibonacci series. How does this imply that some 'intelligence' decided that this would be the pattern upon which these things would unfold? Isn't it more likely that this pattern RESULTS, due to each individual element being influenced LOCALLY by the simple forces of nature which exist in this universe?
 
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SteveB28

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Instead of claiming inability to see why not attempt a genuine rebuttal?


Why not explain why you are easily able to see at point "A" but are suddenly, and inexplicably totally incapable of seeing at point "B" when required to be consistent in your modus operandi?

Don't tell me! You can't see! Which to me means that you won't see and that nobody is going to make you see cuz you don't wanna see..

Which is OK by me as long as I don't have to waste my time dealing with it.




Perhaps you should sit down and take a few deep breaths........



.
 
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Radrook

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Radrook

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Several questions spring to mind here--the first of which is, what is "chaotic evolution?"--but I can't ask them, because you would just regard it as an attack or a denial.

An attack?
I don't regard any genuine attempt at a logical rebuttal as an attack.
I don't regard a discussion on any serous subject as a series of attacks.
I see them as an exchange of diverse opinions which one might feel are justified or unjustified-logical or illogical, cogent or fallacious.

A denial? Well, that's one way of looking at it. You see, the problem which typically arises in my atheism versus ID discussions is that the atheists keep digging in like Alabama ticks and refuse to reason on ID rebuttals. When that happens then the discussion comes to an abrupt, complete halt, and gradually transforms itself into a ludicrous repetition of equivocations, straw men, evasions, and "I just can't see!" chantings, which are a total waste of time.

For example, if I repeatedly ask you why you are being inconsistent in your application of criteria in reference to your conclusion of what constitutes the activity of mind, and you glibly either reply that you can't see or completely ignore my question-then you are not offering a rebuttal at all. You are merely avoiding having to deal with the question because you either have no way to deal with it but want to continue believing what you believe.

Please note that I respect your right to choose to believe whatever it is you choose to believe.
However, what seems absurd to me is that although I acknowledge your right to believe what you wish you keep insisting on wanting to discuss the matter when you are obviously unwilling to discuss anything at all. LOL! Especially if it means answering a certain question concerning why you and other atheists are so inconsistent.

If your were genuinely willing to discuss matters rationally, then you would gladly and immediately respond to the question of why you are being inconsistent in your determination of mind-activity criteria. Something which you are obviously extremely averse to even acknowledge that I inquire of you. Instead you folks proceed as if I haven't asked any question at all and then calmly proceed to behave as of you just cain't see.

Which is perfectly OK by me as I said. But why the insistence when you really already have your belief and feel very comfortable with it and obviously are very annoyed at having it questioned? WEIRD!

Actually, I have had folks such as you askl me what I mean by inconsistency of policy as if I were speaking Greek or some ultra dimensional alien language. Then when I explain it they merely ignore it and once more go about simply claiming they can't understands and they still can't see nuffin. Or else they bow out by suggesting that I take a deep breath.
 
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Radrook

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The mathematical sequences of the Fibonacci in nature is evidence of a designing mind at work.
http://www.askipedia.com/6-fascinating-appearances-of-the-fibonacci-numbers-in-nature/

To claim that a computer, such as a simple abacus, is obviously the product of a planning mind while glibly dismissing the greatest computer yet found in the universe, the human brain, as the product of a mindless process is also another example of the I can’t see it cuz I don’t wanna!” excuse.

"And in man is a three-pound brain which, as far as we know, is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe."

Dr. Isaac Asimov (biochemist; was a Professor at Boston University School of Medicine; internationally known author), "In the game of energy and thermodynamics you can't even break even.". Smithsonian Institute Journal, June 1970, p. 10

Yet the guy then says this:

I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time. -- Isaac Asimov, in "Free Inquiry", Spring 1982, vol.2 no.2, p. 9

Go figure!


 
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Radrook

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Thanks for the quotes,. But since they have come under criticism for not being properly documented by providing sources correctly I offer these as well.

---------------------------------------------------

The evidence given above makes it overwhelmingly likely that Lucy was no more than a variety of pygmy chimpanzee, and walked the same way (awkwardly upright on occasions, but mostly quadrupedal). The 'evidence' for the alleged transformation from ape to man is extremely unconvincing."
Albert W. Mehlert, former Evolutionist and paleoanthropology researcher. "Lucy - Evolution's Solitary Claim for Ape/Man." CRS Quarterly, Volume 22, No. 3, p. 145  

"We add that it would be all too easy to object that mutations have no evolutionary effect because they are eliminated by natural selection. Lethal mutations (the worst kind) are effectively eliminated, but others persist as alleles. ...Mutants are present within every population, from bacteria to man. There can be no doubt about it. But for the evolutionist, the essential lies elsewhere: in the fact that mutations do not coincide with evolution." Pierre-Paul Grassé (University of Paris and past-President, French Academie des Sciences) in Evolution of Living Organisms, Academic Press, New York, 1977, p. 88

"Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory." Ronald R. West, PhD (paleoecology and geology) (Assistant Professor of Paleobiology at Kansas State University), "Paleoecology and uniformitarianism". Compass, vol. 45, May 1968, p. 216

"The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that 'a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein'." Sir Fred Hoyle (English astronomer, Professor of Astronomy at Cambridge University), as quoted in "Hoyle on Evolution". Nature, vol. 294, 12 Nov. 1981, p. 105

"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution, we do not have one iota of fact." Dr. T. N. Tahmisian (Atomic Energy Commission, USA) in "The Fresno Bee", August 20, 1959. As quoted by N. J. Mitchell, Evolution and the Emperor's New Clothes, Roydon Publications, UK, 1983, title page.  

"Echoing the criticism made of his father's habilis skulls, he added that Lucy's skull was so incomplete that most of it was 'imagination made of plaster of Paris', thus making it impossible to draw any firm conclusion about what species she belonged to." Referring to comments made by Richard Leakey (Director of National Museums of Kenya) in The Weekend Australian, 7-8 May 1983, Magazine, p. 3

"The entire hominid collection known today would barely cover a billiard table, ... the collection is so tantalizingly incomplete, and the specimens themselves often so fragmented and inconclusive, that more can be said about what is missing than about what is present. ...but ever since Darwin's work inspired the notion that fossils linking modern man and extinct ancestor would provide the most convincing proof of human evolution, preconceptions have led evidence by the nose in the study of fossil man." John Reader (photo-journalist and author of "Missing Links"), "Whatever happened to Zinjanthropus?" New Scientist, 26 March 1981, p. 802


"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution." Stephen Jay Gould (Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University), "Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?" Paleobiology, vol. 6(1), January 1980, p. 127

"The essence of Darwinism lies in a single phrase: natural selection is the creative force of evolutionary change. No one denies that natural selection will play a negative role in eliminating the unfit. Darwinian theories require that it create the fit as well." Stephen Jay Gould (Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University), "The return of hopeful monsters". Natural History, vol. LXXXVI(6), June-Jule 1977, p. 28


"Why do geologists and archeologists still spend their scarce money on costly radiocarbon determinations? They do so because occasional dates appear to be useful. While the method cannot be counted on to give good, unequivocal results, the number do impress people, and save them the trouble of thinking excessively. Expressed in what look like precise calendar years, figures seem somehow better ... 'Absolute' dates determined by a laboratory carry a lot of weight, and are extremely helpful in bolstering weak arguments. "No matter how 'useful' it is, though, the radiocarbon method is still not capable of yielding accurate and reliable results. There are gross discrepancies, the chronology is uneven and relative, and the accepted dates are actually selected dates. This whole bless thing is nothing but 13th-century alchemy, and it all depends upon which funny paper you read." Robert E. Lee, "Radiocarbon: ages in error." Anthropological Journal of Canada, vol.19(3), 1981, pp.9-29. Reprinted in the Creation Research Society Quarterly, vol. 19(2), September 1982, pp. 117-127 (quotes from pp. 123 and 125)

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Speedwell

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If your were genuinely willing to discuss matters rationally, then you would gladly and immediately respond to the question of why you are being inconsistent in your determination of mind-activity criteria. Something which you are obviously extremely averse to even acknowledge that I inquire of you. Instead you folks proceed as if I haven't asked any question at all and then calmly proceed to behave as of you just cain't see.
I did, and you used as an opportunity to smear my ideas on the subject and the authenticity of my faith. You showed no willingness to engage in rational discussion about it. I don't believe you want any rational discussion. All you want is immediate assent and adulation for the brilliance of your amazing insights.

Now you have made reference to something you call "chaotic evolution."
Are you asserting that evolution is "chaotic" in the common sense of the term? Or are you talking about the attempts of some scientists to apply the mathematics of Chaos Theory to evolution?

It doesn't matter; I'm sure you will regard the question as nothing but an attempt to attack or deny your brilliant insight about orderly patterns in nature.
 
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Radrook

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I did, and you used as an opportunity to smear my ideas on the subject and the authenticity of my faith. You showed no willingness to engage in rational discussion. I don't believe you want any rational discussion. All you want is immediate assent and adulation for the brilliance of your amazing insights.
Excuse me and thanks for the reference of brilliance. However, I see NOTHING brilliant about cogent reasoning. It is simply jus cogent reasoning and nothing more. If I recall correctly, what I did express you tagged as drivel and as bringing dishonor to the idea of a creator because you consider my way of reasoning seriously flawed. It was you who said that-right?
 
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Speedwell

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Excuse me and thanks for the reference of brilliance. However, I see NOTHING brilliant about cogent reasoning. It is simply jus cogent reasoning and nothing more. If I recall correctly, what I did express you tagged as drivel and as bringing dishonor to the idea of a creator because you consider my way of reasoning seriously flawed. It was you who said that-right?
Quote the post if you like.
 
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Cute Tink

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Radrook

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Quote the post if you like.


I wasn't attempting to smear faith. I was just very baffled by a fellow believer in God seemingly striving to prove my argument about God being reality wrong. That is all. I had never encountered that before. In fact, I am still baffled.
 
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Speedwell

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I wasn't attempting to smear faith. I was just very baffled by a fellow believer in God seemingly striving to prove my argument about God being reality wrong. That is all. I had never encountered that before. In fact, I am still baffled.
Was that a typo, about "God being reality"?

No, I'm not "striving" to prove you wrong. I think your argument, as it stands, is incomplete and may be wrong. In particular, your statement that "design" is "organization for a purpose" has practical problems that you need to iron out, or at least expand on. And I still don't know what you mean by "chaotic evolution" or why you think an iterative process like evolution can't produce the patterned structures you have observed in nature.
 
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quatona

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I wasn't attempting to smear faith. I was just very baffled by a fellow believer in God seemingly striving to prove my argument about God being reality wrong. That is all. I had never encountered that before. In fact, I am still baffled.
There is a huge difference between agreeing with the cause an argument is meant to support and agreeing that the argument is a good one. It´s interesting that you as a person who pictures himself a philosophically firm wasn´t aware of that.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Why would I try to falsify logically what has been proven logically non-falsifiable. In fact, that's the reason why atheists say they cain't see. Because they know that it is logically non-falsifiable. So in order to avoid having to admit that it is logically unassailable they try to divorce the scientific method from cogent reasoning in order to make cogent reasoning seem totally unrelated to science. That's what qualifies their modus operandi as quackery.

lol!

Unfalsifiable models are infinite in number and can be dissmissed at face-value, for exactly that reason.

Actually, most scientists are fully aware of their own chicanery. In contrast, their followers are a totally different matter. Such followers appear to genuinely believe that cogent reasoning has little to do with the scientific method. The remedy is of course, to attain a basic understanding of what the scientific method involves. But when a person doesn't know or doesn't admit he needs help-then help will not be sought.

No reasoning that qualifies as "rational" leads to justifiably accepting unfalsifiable models.

Unfalsifiable nonsense isn't part of science in any way, because it is totally useless, meaningless,... There is nothing there to work with.

It all boils down to an invincible ignorance which is time-wasting for any ID to be striving to overcome because in the long run-the final resounding response from theists will be the perennial and predictable and very conveniently enunciated- ""I cain't see!"" In fact, your very question is indicative of that intended response.

No. Rather, the question touches upon the core problem of your "hypothesis".
It exposes that it is fundamentally a religious idea. An unfalsifiable idea. An idea that is indistinguishable from magic and the non-existant.

In short: a totally useless and meaningless idea. Again, there is nothing there to work with. It makes no predictions. It offers no explanations. It has no practical applications. It is not falsifiable, testable, observable, verifiable, supportable,... anything.

All it is, is religious words on paper, disguised in a lab coat.
 
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