Arikay

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Also, the Odds decrease because of the vastness of space.

Its like the Lotto. The odds of you winning it are Slim. But the Odds that someone, somewhere, will win it are much much bigger.
All we needed was for one planet, somewhere to win the odds of life (which are Not random like the lotto) and life came about, and lasted long enough to end up having some sort of inteligent organism pop up.

It makes you wonder how many other planets out there Almost won, but didnt. Or actually did win and have some sort of life on them as well.
 
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Siliconaut

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Considering the sheer amount of star systems similar to our own and the obvious abundance of planets in our own, it would be foolish to state that the odds of life happening nowhere are impossible. In fact, it's **** near impossible for life NOT to happen somewhere, sometime. ;)
 
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lucaspa

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worship4ever said:
But to my orginal point: Everyone knows the sun makes up 99.85% of all the mass in our solar system. The sun is primarily made up of Hydrogen and Helium. If you take the closest planets near the sun you would get mercury, venus, earth, and mars. Now earth is 149,600,000 km miles from the sun, inches compared to the vastness of other planets and the entire universe in general. One would expect that these planets (earth included) would be made up of sum of the same composition as the sun, which to remind you is 99.85% of all the mass in our solar system. Yet, the earth has every know resource, almost every know element ever discovered, yet oddly enough only half of one percent of these nearby planets have hydrogen and helium. The earth's hydrogen and helium fails to compare to the other elements we find on earth http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tables/elabund.html
The earth, and surrounding planets, should have some of the same compostion has the sun, considering it's size, mass, and content of the sun. Likewise, the moon is too dissimliar to the earth, and vis vera. The earth has everything needed to handle man kind, i say for mankind, b.c fish, mammals, insects, ect, do not need these elements like man needs them. Everything on earth is given to us in great abundance, and still doesnt even come close to having the same composition as the sun.

Although the sun is 99.85% hydrogen and helium, the remaining .15% (all the rest of the elements) is a HUGE amount in mass.

The reasons the inner planets are the heavier elements are:

1. Solar wind blew most of the hydrogen and helium out of the inner solar system soon after the sun began nuclear fusion. Those elements are so light that being hit by electrons and other ions from the sun will move them quite easily.

2. The gravity of the smaller planets is too low to hold onto the ligher elements. Their motion can easily be boosted to the point that they have escape velocity and escape from the gravity.

Notice that the outer planets have considerable hydrogen. The solar wind is much less at that distance and they are much larger, so their gravity can hold the hydrogen.

To futher the aurgument, each planet and sun should orbit in the same direction (Law of Angular Momentum). Yet we find that 2 planets ( Venus, Uranus, and Pluto) and 6 moons orbit backward's from there celestial body body. This flies in the face of Centripetal Force, yet it still happens. If the sun is rotating clockwise, so should there orbiting celestial bodies.

All major planets orbit the sun in the same direction. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_orbit

Venus and Uranus have retrograde ROTATION. But this is easily explained by impacts during the formation of the solar system. Enough impacts opposite the direction of rotation, and the rotation is reversed.

This website is a great site about the population of the earth. The increase of population on earth and how it relates to millions of years and evolution, if that were true. Read the formula used, its a good one.
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-021.htm

The formula doesn't take into considertation death rates. Right now the human species is in an unusual position due to our technology. Death rates are much less than birth rates. This hasn't applied thru most of history. Instead, death rates = birth rates and the population is stable.

The earth has about 60 things that must happen for life to even be possible for humans. All these things are perfectly inline.

And they aren't in line on the other planets of the solar system adn they don't have life, do they?

This is the Strong Anthropic Principle and is simply an error of logic. The earth doesn't HAVE to have those 60 things. If it didn't, we wouldn't be here. You see, we don't HAVE to be here. But that is the assumption you are making.

The odd's of the big bang, evolution, first cell, DNA, animo acids in protein forming are near impossible. Evolutionist need eternity on there side, they dont.

How does one calculate the odds of a single event? The odds of first cell, DNA, amino acids in protein forming are nearly ONE, virtual certainty. None of those is due to chance. That's the mistake the websites made. The calculations are garbage in, garbage out.
 
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Siliconaut

Not to be confused with the other Norman Hartnell
The puddle example springs to mind. It has been mentioned repeatedly, but I'll give it another minute on the air:

"Wow!" says the puddle.
"This hole I'm in - it's my exact form and shape! Therefore, it must have been made to have me in it!" ;)
 
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worship4ever

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I noticed that you guys loved to talk about odds. I agree with you to a point, odds are not that important in day to day activities, yet when your talking about the beginning of life, or life from non-life i think its important. When a odd is so high the only chance you have to make it is thur eternity i believe it needs some discussion. This is a good site just about evolution and odds. Yes, its a christian site, go away, say it baised. When are you people going to stop seeing a christian site and turn it away for fear of bais. http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=43841&page=3&pp=10

But to put you guys at ease, this is a non christian site about the same subject http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/addendaB.html

Science and reason are based on observation of evidence and logical inference. What do we observe? That life comes only from existing life and not from inanimate matter. What do we logically infer? If the odds of life forming on its own are even as low as one in a trillion, then the odds of life not forming on its own must be a trillion to one. Wouldn't these observations and inferences lead anyone acting without bias or preconceptions about God and religion to conclude that intelligent design is far more reasonable than life happening on its own?

Everything that we know with certainty to have been created in our own lifetime was only done so with purpose and intelligence. We've never observed non-living matter to have either intelligence or the ability to create life, so how and why would matter have created it to begin with? An intelligence and power capable of creating the universe is far beyond our comprehension, yet it shouldn't be difficult to see that this is the more reasonable choice of faith. It's just putting mind over matter.

And Arikay, you talking about christianity alot, though its not a religion, religion isnt going to get you into heaven, but i noticed that you love to tell me that creationist and i have alot of misconceptions about evolution, first cell, big bang, ect, well, you have the same misconceptions about religion, especisally in regards to christianity.
 
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worship4ever said:
Science and reason are based on observation of evidence and logical inference. What do we observe? That life comes only from existing life and not from inanimate matter. What do we logically infer? If the odds of life forming on its own are even as low as one in a trillion, then the odds of life not forming on its own must be a trillion to one. Wouldn't these observations and inferences lead anyone acting without bias or preconceptions about God and religion to conclude that intelligent design is far more reasonable than life happening on its own?

Everything that we know with certainty to have been created in our own lifetime was only done so with purpose and intelligence. We've never observed non-living matter to have either intelligence or the ability to create life, so how and why would matter have created it to begin with? An intelligence and power capable of creating the universe is far beyond our comprehension, yet it shouldn't be difficult to see that this is the more reasonable choice of faith. It's just putting mind over matter.

And Arikay, you talking about christianity alot, though its not a religion, religion isnt going to get you into heaven, but i noticed that you love to tell me that creationist and i have alot of misconceptions about evolution, first cell, big bang, ect, well, you have the same misconceptions about religion, especisally in regards to christianity.

Forget about arguing odds, it gets you nowhere, and odds can immediately be discarded by the weak antropic principle. we are here, and whether the odds are huge or tiny. you might as well deny that the first person to win the national lottery won, because the odds were 14,000,000:1 and since they had only bought one ticket so they shouldn't have won. you can tell them this all you like, but they wil just grin and show you their bank balance.


Looking at living matter, there is nothing really that special about it, other than it is more organised. there are many examples of spontaneous organisation from both a solid structural level, right up to stars and galaxies. from all these you could equally deduce that nature spontaneously organises itself into self sustaining patterns. RNA, DNA and life is just another self sustaining pattern.

The university clearly has the capacity to create structures (ignoring how it all started off, life is just application of physics, there is nothing you can say that denies that, since nothing about life breaks the laws of physics in any way whatsoever), and so why should one assume that there is an all powerful omniscient eternal sentient perfect being to start it off? it is adding in an unnescessary element.
 
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worship4ever

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Jet Black, you know its funny, i was talking over with a co-worker the other day. She is a real big dog lover. I asked her if hunting was wrong, morally that is, and she obviously said no. I then asked her, well, what about hunting dogs, is that wrong? She got a look on her face and said, "thats just wrong." You might not know where im going with this, but, its simple. People pick and choose what they want to believe in. There are about 6 billion different ideas about God, considering theres about 6 billion people in the world. Things ranging from not believing at all, to the die religion person. God doesnt care what you think, he cares what you know. But the story i told you about the co-worker. I asked, why is it wrong to kill humans, i mean, if evolution was correct and a scienfitic certainty then me, you, a bug, a dog, a deer, ect, everything is the same. I believe each of us has a conscience, something not explained in evolution obviously. If evolution were true, we are no different than the animals or bugs or fish we kill. Do you think its okay to kill someone else, but, heck, all we are are complex proteins, made from a single cell billions and billions of years ago. In theory, since we kill animals, its okay to kill humans as well, correct?

About your comments above, you said, "looking at living matter, there is nothing really special about it, other than it is more organised." I gotta say, you kinda shocked me there. Living matter is more complex than you or i or anyone could possible even fatham. You talk about RNA, DNA, and life being just another self-sustaining pattern. I personally think thats odd. I would assume that you know the basics of DNA, RNA, amino acids, and protein. It is also impossible to imagine that something so complex would create in a mere 15 billion years. Here's some good reading http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/08dna02.htm#Mathematical Possibilities or this one http://www.sixdaycreation.com/facts/creation/science/dec98.html.
Scientists have finally figured out complicated ways in expensive laboratories to synthesize dead compounds of four of these five, using rare materials such as hydrogen cyanide or cyanoacetylene. (Thymine remains unsynthesizable.) Sugar can be made in the laboratory, but the phosphate group is extremely difficult. In the presence of calcium ions, found in abundance in oceans and rivers, the phosphate ion is precipitated out. In life forms enzymes catalyze the task, but how could enzyme action occur outside of plants or animals? It would not happen.

Then there are the polynucleotide strands which have to form in exactly the fit needed to wrap neatly about the DNA helix molecule. A 100 percent exact fit is required. But chemists seem unable to produce much in the way of synthesized polynucleotides, and they are totally unable to make them in predetermined sizes and shapes.

EACH CHARACTERISTIC CONTROLLED BY MANY GENES—The more the scientists have studied genetics, the worse the situation becomes. Instead of each gene controlling many different factors in the body, geneticists have discovered that each factor is controlled by many different genes! Because of this, it would thus be impossible, either for the DNA code to gradually "evolve," or to change. The DNA code had to be there "all at once," and once in place, that code could never change!

Here's an awesome evolutionist site about the problem with the theory

http://evolution-facts.org/2evlch10a.htm

You also mentioned ignoring how it all started off, life being just applications of physics. To this i say, wow, how it all started could possibly be the answers to questions scientist have been looking for for years. How everything starting could be the single most important thing in science, it opens doors never found. About it being just applications of physics, i agree, it is, yet, there must be something or someone that applies these laws of phyics, chemistry, cosology, ect. These laws of science had a beginning. The universe didn't say all of a sudden, "i will pull two objects together with different masses (gravity)" No, these laws were set into motion by something. An electron has certain properties that make it an electron. It had to get it's instructions somewhere at sometime by something.

Lately you said, "so why should one assume that there is an all powerful omniscient eternal sentient perfect being to start it all of. To that i say, its faith, and its also scienfitic. There are way too many things in all areas of science pointing to an intelligent designer. 15 billion years is way to short of a time to begin everything we have now, considering the complexities of everything. Here's a good site about it http://www.arn.org/docs/behe/mb_idfrombiochemistry.htm
 
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Siliconaut

Not to be confused with the other Norman Hartnell
@w4e: Why keep on posting links to the same, tired arguments that have been shown to base on garbage-in-garbage-out fallacies? Why won't you get the hint that the "odds" are not even as astronomically high as you would like them to be?

Life IS chemistry. In terms of complexity, there is nothing astounding about DNA - it's a bretty basic arrangement of molecules following known laws on a molecular level. There is no reason to believe that life started out this complex - it is even illogical to assume that at the time life appeared on this planet, it already had DNA. The first "life" can be thought of to have been short nucleotid chains with the ability to chemically synthesize duplicates. From there, it's only a small step to protocells and later procaryontes.

The odds of this not happening somewhere, somewhen, since the chemical reactions are likely to happen (no chance, but statistical likeness), are infinitesimally small. Creationists take wrong numbers, insert them into irrelevant calculations and then say that life is impossible - well, tell that to life. ;)
 
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worship4ever

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Siliconaut, do you honestly believe that if a scientist performed an experiment that disproved evolution, big bang, ect, do you think he's honestly going to start telling it around the world as soon as possible. A creationist is objective that LOOKS at all facets of science. Creationist and evolutionist agree on TONS of things that are never discussed here for obvious reasons. A creationist isnt going to make up numbers or alter an experiment for there gain. But, an evolutionist isnt going to be excited about proving evolution wrong, they fight that one forever.
 
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worship4ever

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And you ALWAYS mention this garbage-in-garbage-out fallacies thing. Why are you so prejudice around a creationist webpage, or for that matter any scientist webpage that finds flaws in evolution. You constantly miss it as this garbage-in-garbage-out thing. Science isn't partical to one way of thinking. And your preconceived notion of, and i quote "Creationists take wrong numbers, insert them into irrelevant calculations and then say that life is impossible" is insane and a bit asburd. No-one cares if you like the numbers, but if the numbers are accurate, deal with it buddy.
And did you ever answer my question about if its okay to kill other people considering we are no different than the deers, ducks, or any animal we hunt, b.c humans don't have a conscience, why, but we all evolved from a single cell. That bug i killed with my truck at 60mph on the highway is the same, and no different than i. Correct.
 
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worship4ever said:
If evolution were true, we are no different than the animals or bugs or fish we kill. Do you think its okay to kill someone else, but, heck, all we are are complex proteins, made from a single cell billions and billions of years ago. In theory, since we kill animals, its okay to kill humans as well, correct?

when did I say that morality had anything to do with what we are made of?

About your comments above, you said, "looking at living matter, there is nothing really special about it, other than it is more organised." I gotta say, you kinda shocked me there. Living matter is more complex than you or i or anyone could possible even fatham. You talk about RNA, DNA, and life being just another self-sustaining pattern. I personally think thats odd. I would assume that you know the basics of DNA, RNA, amino acids, and protein. It is also impossible to imagine that something so complex would create in a mere 15 billion years.
it's impossible is it?
Then there are the polynucleotide strands which have to form in exactly the fit needed to wrap neatly about the DNA helix molecule. A 100 percent exact fit is required. But chemists seem unable to produce much in the way of synthesized polynucleotides, and they are totally unable to make them in predetermined sizes and shapes.

because the methods used in chemistry are a bit ****, and basically involve boiling a load of stuff together.

Because of this, it would thus be impossible, either for the DNA code to gradually "evolve," or to change. The DNA code had to be there "all at once," and once in place, that code could never change!

will you stop using the word impossible.

Here's an awesome evolutionist site about the problem with the theory

http://evolution-facts.org/2evlch10a.htm

About it being just applications of physics, i agree, it is, yet, there must be something or someone that applies these laws of phyics, chemistry, cosology, ect.

there is no logical necessity

These laws of science had a beginning. The universe didn't say all of a sudden, "i will pull two objects together with different masses (gravity)" No, these laws were set into motion by something. An electron has certain properties that make it an electron. It had to get it's instructions somewhere at sometime by something.

don't anthromorphosise the universe. It is an absolute necessity that all the laws that we find about the universe are ones that will allow the existance of life. if they are any different then we have a problem.
15 billion years is way to short of a time to begin everything we have now, considering the complexities of everything. Here's a good site about it http://www.arn.org/docs/behe/mb_idfrombiochemistry.htm

oh look, probability again.
 
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worship4ever said:
And you ALWAYS mention this garbage-in-garbage-out fallacies thing.

because you always use the same logical fallacy perhaps.
And did you ever answer my question about if its okay to kill other people considering we are no different than the deers, ducks, or any animal we hunt, b.c humans don't have a conscience, why, but we all evolved from a single cell. That bug i killed with my truck at 60mph on the highway is the same, and no different than i. Correct.

false conclusion fallacy: just because Atheists believe that there is no God, and that we all evolved from animals and animals do not (apparently) have consciences, this does not mean that atheists do not have consciences. Other animals don't (apparently) but you don't see elephants killing one another, or dolphins, or snakes and so on. In fact, the only species that I know of on this planet that intentionally (some might kill one another in mating battles, but even then this is rare) are humans, ants and termites "hooray for conscience"
 
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Siliconaut

Not to be confused with the other Norman Hartnell
worship4ever said:
Siliconaut, do you honestly believe that if a scientist performed an experiment that disproved evolution, big bang, ect, do you think he's honestly going to start telling it around the world as soon as possible.
How ignorant can one be of the shark pool that is the scientific community? Of course he would put out the data - because if he's right, he'll be the top shark, humbling all the other ones, reaping a nobel prize, writing books, getting loads of grants, honorary doctorates, etc...

Who would be idiotic enough to withhold such belief-shattering, world-moving evidence? The obvious reason for there not being a single paper to this effect is: Nothing has been discovered yet that falsifies the ToE.

No matter how hard you wish, wishful thinking does not alter facts.

A creationist is objective that LOOKS at all facets of science.
If a creationist hasn't just looked at science, but actually understood some, he becomes an evolutionist pretty quickly. *gg*

A creationist isnt going to make up numbers or alter an experiment for there gain.
Muhahahaa - you really believe that? Creationists write best-sellers, are respected by the ignorant, hold seminars, sell videos, all to an unskeptic, wish-believing audience to whom facts are something that has to conform to their opinion. No personal gain? Just let me go into the cellar to have a good laugh...

But, an evolutionist isnt going to be excited about proving evolution wrong, they fight that one forever.
Anyone would be excited if they could find a flaw in a generally accepted scientific theory - as mentioned before, huge rewards will be reaped by whoever is cunning enough to show the scientific community the "errors of their ways". *g*

And you ALWAYS mention this garbage-in-garbage-out fallacies thing. Why are you so prejudice around a creationist webpage, or for that matter any scientist webpage that finds flaws in evolution.
Maybe you haven't noticed: Creationist websites are not trying to deduce theories from facts, instead they try to make facts fit fiction. No matter how mathematically correct their results are - the data they put into the equations is wrong, the calculation rests on false assumptions (like chemical reactions being "chance" events instead of predestined ones).

Creationists have not found a single flaw in the ToE yet. All they have to offer is selective perception, false data and ad-hoc hypotheses - nowhere do they offer real challenges to the ToE.

No-one cares if you like the numbers, but if the numbers are accurate, deal with it buddy.
It doesn't matter if I like the numbers. The numbers are wrong, the calculations are based on false assumptions. Deal with it, buddy, to quote you. *lol*

And did you ever answer my question about if its okay to kill other people considering we are no different than the deers, ducks, or any animal we hunt, b.c humans don't have a conscience, why, but we all evolved from a single cell. That bug i killed with my truck at 60mph on the highway is the same, and no different than i. Correct.
That's a moral question - and not of the slightest concern to the ToE. Morals are subjective and change from culture to culture, from time to time. Some people see the killing of cows for hamburgers as tantamount to murder, while I don't.

I think you are trying to adress your concern that, once evolution was accepted even by creationists, we'd all go killing each other like animals, sleep with animals, etc...

I'd be sorry for you, if your moral system were so dependant on us being totally apart from animals - mine certainly is not. I have compassion for animals, but I have even more compassion for members of my species. I would rather kill a bug on a highway than a dog, and especially a human being. I have nothing against hunting for food, and I have no qualms about putting down a dog that becomes a danger for humans - yet I am aware that each life I take is a life. How's that a problem?

W4e, why can't you see that people don't become murdering, lying, sodomizing *******s just because they have accepted the ToE? Do you still believe that accepting evolution equals atheism?
 
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worship4ever said:
Sili, you have a huge problem with thinking that everyone that believes in evolution is an atheist. I personally dont, i've never said it, never will. One the same line though, most think the bible is a good story book not the word of God

what?

worship4ever said:
And did you ever answer my question about if its okay to kill other people considering we are no different than the deers, ducks, or any animal we hunt, b.c humans don't have a conscience, why, but we all evolved from a single cell. That bug i killed with my truck at 60mph on the highway is the same, and no different than i. Correct.

Siliconaut said:
W4e, why can't you see that people don't become murdering, lying, sodomizing *******s just because they have accepted the ToE? Do you still believe that accepting evolution equals atheism?
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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A creationist isnt going to make up numbers or alter an experiment for there gain.

Maybe not. Howevr I have noticed that each page on AiG ends with "please send us a donation".

According to the Kentucky Post AiG took in 7.2 million in 2001

http://www.kypost.com/2002/10/26/genes102602.html

Ken Ham got 170,000 plus benies from that, though he claims he started out with a lot less.

Don't you think Sarfati is making money off Refuting Evolution? The book is full of nonsense but has sold 350,000 copies.

Whether they would alter an experiment for gain or not all creation "scientists" have sworn oaths to interpret any data they should happen to get in as support for their particular interpretation of the book of Genesis. Thus the main reason they may alter data or at least produce very twisted interpretations is not for gain but because they absolutely have to to support their worldview.

But, an evolutionist isnt going to be excited about proving evolution wrong, they fight that one forever.

An "evolutionist" who could actually prove evolution wrong would win a Nobel prize and become both rich and famous.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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worship4ever

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Arikay, animals have a conscience, get real dude. Conscience is defined in three areas: language, self-awareness and "theory of mind." Language, animals communicate more with tone with anything, except for a few, animals communicate, only humans have language. Self-awareness, have you ever seen an animal look at him or herself in a mirror and be afraid or try to attack it, they don't have self-awareness. And lastly, theory of mind, not that either, they think in imagines not language or thought. They know how to climb a tree, not math. Most of these things are impusle or instinct, not an idea of conscience. The psychology world pushblished a great article on this very subject. http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1175/6_32/56883557/p1/article.jhtml?term
Just because we as humans have emotional attachments to animals doesn't mean they have conscience or that theres a dog heaven or something
 
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