Early Church

[christianmomof3]

Ok, go ahead and provide the evidence that the early Catholic Church destroyed literature of other Christians. So far you have provided speculation. And if you could provide as a bonus some of the Christians outside the early Catholic Church working for reform, I'd like to know whose names you have in mind.

There is a very good book called "The Pilgrim Church" by E.H. Broadbent that gives a lot of information about what is known about the early church and the various early groups of Christians.

 

[Tzaousios]

There is a very good book called "The Pilgrim Church" by E.H. Broadbent that gives a lot of information about what is known about the early church and the various early groups of Christians.

Broadbent's book seems to be a rehashing of what J. M. Carroll said almost a century ago in The Trail of Blood.

In other words, it is ahistorical bet-hedging by certain Protestant groups whose clarity and message has been ruined by anti-Catholic hysteria. Instead of providing a clear, concise message that is informed by history, they resort to crafting propaganda that must by nature be the dialectical opposite of anything the Catholic Church says and does. Since Broadbent is a member of the Plymouth Brethren, he should not be expected to think outside this box.

Trail of Blood and similar pseudo-histories have been debunked, and not just by Inquisitor-like Catholic scholars. Prominent Baptist and Presbyterian historians have written several books on the topic, which I can reference if you would like.

When one comes right down to it, considering their theological beliefs, why would any Bible-believing Protestant desire to trace their heritage through heretical groups such as the Cathars, Bogamils, and Waldensians?

 

[MrPolo]

Waldensians?

Oh man....my Da Vinci Code bells went ringing off at this.

 

[christianmomof3]

Broadbent's book seems to be a rehashing of what J. M. Carroll said almost a century ago in The Trail of Blood.

Interesting. I had not heard of the "Trail of Blood". Is http://www.bryanstation.com/trail_of_blood.htmhttp://http://www.bryanstation.com/trail_of_blood.htm it?
I suppose that Catholics and Orthodox would also similarly consider "Foxe's Book of Martryrs "http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html to be incorrect as well.
It seems useless to even ask questions about something if you are already convinced that your view is correct and any others are not.

 

[Tzaousios]

Interesting. I had not heard of the "Trail of Blood". Is this it?

Although the link didn't work, copies of the Trail of Blood pamphlet are readily available online.

I suppose that Catholics and Orthodox would also similarly consider "Foxe's Book of Martryrs "http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html to be incorrect as well.

Catholics and Orthodox? I think any self-respecting historian, or attentive reader for that matter, whether part of those or Protestant, can see that Foxe's Book of Martyrs was written with a clear agenda in mind and in a specific historical and cultural context.

It seems useless to even ask questions about something if you are already convinced that your view is correct and any others are not.

I whole-heartedly agree and do not think I was indicating that one should be convinced that their view is unassailable and unable to be corrected or refined.

 

[christianmomof3]

I think any self-respecting historian, or attentive reader for that matter, whether part of those or Protestant, can see that Foxe's Book of Martyrs was written with a clear agenda in mind and in a specific historical and cultural context.

I think that most if not all religious books have a clear agenda in mind, don't they? And it would seem that most would also fall within specific and historical contexts as well.

Do Catholics and Orthodox claim that the stories in Foxe's Book of Martyrs are untrue?

 

[MrPolo]

Interesting. I had not heard of the "Trail of Blood". Is this it?
I suppose that Catholics and Orthodox would also similarly consider "Foxe's Book of Martryrs "Fox's Book of Martyrs to be incorrect as well.
It seems useless to even ask questions about something if you are already convinced that your view is correct and any others are not.

We don't deny wrongdoings of inappropriate behavior on the part of some members of the Church in history. I haven't been through Fox's stuff one by one, but I know some of it is true. What I asked you for was evidence that the true Church (i.e. not the Catholic Church as you say) had documents destroyed by the Catholic/Orthodox Church in the first centuries. You are arguing that the early Church was not what is today the Catholic or Orthodox Church. Other than saying "Here, read this book" I have not seen you provide any evidence. Can't we have a nugget or two to examine?

Fox, for his part, doesn't even go into "Catholic" persecutions until the year 1100 or so. He writes: "Thus far our history of persecution has been confined principally to the pagan world. We come now to a period when persecution, under the guise of Christianity, committed more enormities than ever disgraced the annals of paganism. Disregarding the maxims and the spirit of the Gospel, the papal Church, arming herself with the power of the sword, vexed the Church of God..." And then he goes on about the Waldensians in the 11th-12th century. Fox also recognizes the bishopric system of the early Church and considers these Catholics themselves martyrs (like Polycarp or others like Justin Martyr).

 

[MamaZ]

I used Scripture in the debate too. And so do the Apostolic Churches. This whole thread is based on a false premise that Apostolic Churches only get their teaching from 367 and after.

I have said some posters only go back so far. Not the Apostolic Churches..

 

[Tzaousios]

I think that most if not all religious books have a clear agenda in mind, don't they? And it would seem that most would also fall within specific and historical contexts as well.

Yes, but as I am sure you know, not all readers are attentive and take these things into account when reading.

Do Catholics and Orthodox claim that the stories in Foxe's Book of Martyrs are untrue?

Perhaps some Catholics and Orthodox can answer that question for themselves. I would wager that they would not accept it as entirely true and factual.

 

[MamaZ]

I will have to look into that book Christianmomof3. It sounds very interesting.

 

[christianmomof3]

We don't deny wrongdoings of inappropriate behavior on the part of some members of the Church in history.
I haven't been through Fox's stuff one by one, but I know some of it is true.

Thank you. That is a thoughtful and intelligent reply.

What I asked you for was evidence that the true Church (i.e. not the Catholic Church as you say) had documents destroyed by the Catholic/Orthodox Church in the first centuries. You are arguing that the early Church was not what is today the Catholic or Orthodox Church. Other than saying "Here, read this book" I have not seen you provide any evidence. Can't we have a nugget or two to examine?

If things were destroyed, then there is not much "evidence" left.
Any "nuggets" that I give right now would be quotes from that book, which is why I suggested that if you are really interested, you might wish to read it. The book is well written and quite interesting.
I did not write it nor am I selling it and I am not in a position to defend what it states so if you want to argue about the historical facts, I cannot do that. I can suggest that book as a good source though.
I think that it is good to read about things that we are interested in.

I don't think that any one religious group is the "true church". I think that the church is composed of all of the redeemed and regenerated believers in Christ no matter what group they chose to meet with.
I think it is interesting to learn about the history of the Christian groups.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Interesting. I had not heard of the "Trail of Blood". Is Trail Of Blood it?
I suppose that Catholics and Orthodox would also similarly consider "Foxe's Book of Martryrs "Fox's Book of Martyrs to be incorrect as well.
It seems useless to even ask questions about something if you are already convinced that your view is correct and any others are not.

If you look at "Foxe's Book of Martyrs", you'll see that the martyrdoms carried out by a church against those outside the church have nothing to do with the Orthodox Church. So we have no opinion about that book.

Just sayin'.

Mary

 

[Tzaousios]

If you look at "Foxe's Book of Martyrs", you'll see that the martyrdoms carried out by a church against those outside the church have nothing to do with the Orthodox Church. So we have no opinion about that book.

Just sayin'.

Mary

What about those martyrdoms carried out before 1054 AD? Or before the Acacian Schism, for that matter?

Not all of the martyrdoms described by Foxe were carried out by "a church" against "those outside the church."

 

[Chesterton]

What about those martyrdoms carried out before 1054 AD? Or before the Acacian Schism, for that matter?

Not all of the martyrdoms described by Foxe were carried out by "a church" against "those outside the church."

I studied that issue some time ago. The question of how to deal with heretics was debated in the East. The concensus of the great majority was that heresy should not be treated as a "criminal justice" matter as it came to be treated in the West.

 

[christianmomof3]

Not all of the martyrdoms described by Foxe were carried out by "a church" against "those outside the church."

Indeed.
Some were carried out by non-Christians against Christians and others were carried out by "Christians" against Christians who did not share their same exact beliefs and practices.

Those who don't learn from history or who bury their heads in the sand and deny it are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Tzaousios]

Not all of the martyrdoms described by Foxe were carried out by "a church" against "those outside the church."

Indeed.
Some were carried out by non-Christians against Christians and others were carried out by "Christians" against Christians who did not share their same exact beliefs and practices.

True, but what I was getting at is that the Orthodox Church is not entirely disconnected from the issue of martyrdom and specifically those committed after the Apostolic Age.

MaryofBethany meant by "a church" the RCC and "those outside the church" Protestants and Anglicans martyred during the early modern period. Foxe's account covers martyrs long before the Church separated during the Acacian Schism and the Great Schism.

 

[MrPolo]

If things were destroyed, then there is not much "evidence" left.

I can muse about all kinds of things that were destroyed but I should have a reasonable basis for believing it. I could posit that pagan Rome destroyed all the literature of a little known civilization known as the "Goofballs" who lived in the Mediterranean and just counter with "all evidence of their existence was destroyed" if someone challenges me. And I'll just point to some actual evidence of some Roman in history to "prove" that they did this sort of thing. The speculation is limitless. And if I had a vested interest in the Goofballs having existed, I just might be willing to believe it.

If you believe Fox's writing, then you should believe that it was Catholic Christians getting oppressed in the first centuries and they didn't really have time to destroy all the writings of the other "true Christians" because they were too busy running for their lives from the very pagan swords Fox describes...

 

[Montalban]

So Paul was not sending letters to the Church as He lived here on earth? Peters letter was written after his death? This makes no sense..

So all the letters and gospels were written prior to 70AD (and gathered together and called 'the Bible')?

Check out these aprox. times for books...

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

 

[Montalban]

Waldensians?

Where's (Peter) Waldo?

 

[MamaZ]

So all the letters and gospels were written prior to 70AD (and gathered together and called 'the Bible')?

Check out these aprox. times for books...

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

Never said they were all gathered together.. I said they were being sent to the church's. They were being sent as Paul was still alive..Dead men do not write letters.