early christians and salvation

wigglytug

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i have a question- alot of protestants seem to be just taking the quotes of early Christians out of context and saying they believed in salvation by faith alone like here What about Faith Alone and Protestants Before the Reformation? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry can anyone help me but them in to context to see what they really mean?
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ArmyMatt

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well, the guys who wrote that nowhere quoted the Fathers saying Faith alone. for some wierd reason, if anyone says we are justified by faith, evangelicals always assume that alone follows. no one, EO, OO, RC etc denies we are justified by faith.

it seems to be the same sola scriptura stuff that they often sadly do with Scriptures, where they pick and choose what they already agree with. and again, they assume the world alone when it is not there.

and those links at the bottom didn't work for me.

just me thoughts
 
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wigglytug

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yes but i actually tried to reason with that guy a few month ago and tried to tell him his quotes are out of context and this is wat ive got
"The reformers language and hence protestant language since that time, delves deep into the ins and outs of forensic justification due to Roman Catholicism's different understanding. As such, you will not find the fine nuances in the early church father's b/c that was not an issue. HOWEVER, the question is "Do the early church father's support salvation by faith alone apart from works" and the answer to that question is an emphatic YES. You have even quoted multiple statements on your own blog that shows nothing less. The evidence you bring against this idea is about the place of works that I don't entirely disagree with. Remember, the knife cuts both ways, if NONE of these quotes deal with forensic justification by faith alone then none of them deal with the forensic declaration of justification by faith and works. This quotes do talk about the fact that works have a very important place in the Christian's life, mainly that it is the true manifestation of one's faith. You stated that the language of Luther, Calvin, and the Reformer's are not their for our view justification, but on the same note it is not there for yours either (as I said this was not an issue at that time). Again, it is apparent; however, that the idea that salvation is a product of faith alone is clearly in their writings. Whether you feel their other writings dispute this is another question, nonetheless, the idea of justification by faith alone is clearly seen in the church fathers."
soruce Blogger: The Predestined Blog - Post a Comment
 
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Joseph Hazen

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"CARM" as it is known is one of the most ridiculous "apologetics" sites out there. They advocate the "Yell what I want to say is true and stuff my fingers in my ears to block out what anyone else is saying" school of thought. Don't bother with 'em.
 
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wigglytug

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also check out what ive found on CARM T
The skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened

wow just wow....
 
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buzuxi02

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i know but i guess i was a bit shocked at well the self-deception i guess it could be called


If protestants could time travel to the 1st-2nd century church they would be shocked and would write polemics and apologetic works against the apostles themselves.

I can see them arguing with Jude because he accepted the book of Enoch and uses its quotes in his epistle. Or try to stop the apostles from attending temple worship not because its jewiish but because there against animal cruelty and dont want to associte with the animal sacrifices.

Heck I wonder what they would think once they accompanied Paul to Greece and found out speaking in strange tongues was the primary basis of the pagan oracles.
 
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WisdomTree

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If protestants could time travel to the 1st-2nd century church they would be shocked and would write polemics and apologetic works against the apostles themselves.

I can see them arguing with Jude because he accepted the book of Enoch and uses its quotes in his epistle. Or try to stop the apostles from attending temple worship not because its jewiish but because there against animal cruelty and dont want to associte with the animal sacrifices.

Heck I wonder what they would think once they accompanied Paul to Greece and found out speaking in strange tongues was the primary basis of the pagan oracles.

Imagine what they'll say if they met Jesus...
 
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ArmyMatt

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Imagine what they'll say if they met Jesus...

you mean a Man who worshipped in a Temple with iconography, fasted, and obeyed the traditions of His faith, both written and oral......?
 
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Zeek

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Lol...Diss the Protestants time.

Now if you took this thread into GT, you might find that even amongst us dim-witted Protestants there were differences of opinions and some had a more traditional understanding than others, and that amongst the diversityof replies some of what was being said actually made theological sense.

I believe we are saved through faith...but if works don't accompany your faith it is a whole lot of hot air....you can't have one without the other which was Jimmy's point.

I looked at Carm once or twice years ago....I agree with what you have seen.

I am not into iconography and some other stuff...if I was born into that tradition perhaps I would make better sense/use of it.
 
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