DUGGERS and 3 questions

[Followers4christ]

All the attention is being given to Josh and making excuses for him while the victims will struggle with this for their entire lives. I know of a family that has a precious daughter that has drawn away from the family because she refuses to tell her husband of 40 years that she was molested. She stays away from the family in fear of someone letting it slip. They will never be free of this.

I am sure his victims would rather not have their whole family paraded around for something that happened over a decade ago. Besides I am sure his sisters have been going through therapy and have been trying to put this all behind them. Just to have their entire family ripped apart and put them in the spot light.

 

[Followers4christ]

That is true, and we certainly (and thankfully) live in a system of 'innocent until proven guilty'. 12 years is a long time, and since all the evidence points that Josh is a changed man, I don't think he should have to pay for it any longer.

What is of *far* greater concern from my perspective is the cover up. His family, the police, the organisation... they all covered up this crime. And that is inexcusable.

I agree but why make this public, when it's being dealt with. I am sure you can see the effects of this going public as it hurts the entire family. Josh owned up to it and got the help he needed. It's been over a decade now and now people want to crucify them.

 

[HannahT]

I agree but why make this public, when it's being dealt with. I am sure you can see the effects of this going public as it hurts the entire family. Josh owned up to it and got the help he needed. It's been over a decade now and now people want to crucify them.

This family is in the public eye, and that is why its out in the open.

The public just found out about it, but now they aren't suppose to talk about it. That's just plain unrealistic.

There are those that wish to crucify no doubt, but on the other hand - due to movements reputation that they follow - its also understandable WHY people are concerned about the help he and the victims got. The last part isn't crucifying - its legitimate questions.

 

[cow451]

How many of us could raise 19 children and only have one failure in the family?

By Cow451
Is a sex offense the only definition of failure? This family is a cult. In that respect one could argue it is one big failure.

Some posters have called the Duggers a cult. I looked up the definition of a cult and below are the basis for a cult.

In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult


How do the parents, Mr. and Mrs. Dugger, fit the description of cult and specifically with the definition of SOCIALLY DEVIANT?

Yes. Having 19 children is far outside the norm. The extreme patriarchal control is well outside the norm. There is no reality show called "Two Kids and Counting" or "Bill and Sue Plus Two".

The definition of a cult is a group of people with extreme dedication to a certain leader or set of beliefs that are often viewed as odd by others, or is an excessive and misplaced admiration for someone or something, or is something that is popular among a certain segment of society.

 

[FreeSpirit74]

This sort of condescending, "you're not a Christian, so you wouldn't understand" attitude is one of the reasons I left Christianity.

It's also one reason why it never appealed to me.

The Christians themselves don't seem to understand it either, since they need so many denominations. God's Word should be GOD'S WORD, period. Concrete. No deviations or different interpretations needed.

 

[Red Fox]

What do you think of the fact that his youngest victim (his sister) was only 4 years old when she was assaulted?

If it was curiousity why after he had assaulted four other victims (three other sisters, included) would he then sexually assault a 4 year old? That's a little more than sick.

Maybe you should read what experts in child abuse/molestation are saying about the fact that such a young victim was chosen, even though he had been assaulting other sisters much closer to his age.

What type of person would be sexually attracted to a 4 year old?

Like I said, I find it disgusting how so many Christians are making excuses for this sexual predator of young girls, especially considering the age of his youngest victim. I think it's even more appalling because it seems to me that they're even trying to justify his sexual deviant behavior by repeatedly citing his age at the time or how long ago he was sexually preying on those poor girls and on that very small child. As if that matters or somehow excuses his sexual perversion and deviant behavior. We have no idea what else he and his family could still possibly be hiding from the public even today. So, he can repent all he wants and receive all the forgiveness from God he can get, and even supposedly receive forgiveness from his victims, but that doesn't change what he is, and that is a repeated child molester and a sexual predator of young girls. He doesn't deserve the benefit the doubt and he certainly doesn't deserve to be trusted around children ever again, least of all, be left alone with children ever again. He does deserve, however, to be shunned by society for the rest of his miserable existence as a repeated child molester, he does deserve to have a certain operation done to him, to ensure he won't be able to further his sexual deviance against young children ever again, and he does deserve to have his own children taken away from him, for their own physical safety and emotional well-being. He definitely deserves to have child protective services breathing down his neck for the rest of his life and watching his every move around his own children and around his younger siblings. I find all these excuses being made for him and his behavior incredibly sad. He's a repeated child molester and sexual predator of young girls, for heaven's sake. He sexually preyed on these young girls and one of his victims was five years old. Furthermore, his professed religion isn't a valid excuse for dismissing his sexually deviant behavior of child molestation either. There are no valid reasons to excuse his repeated sexually deviant behavior against these young girls. On a side note, I think that him professing to be Christian does make things much worse for him (as if that was possible), but not only is he a known sexual predator now, but he's also shown himself to be a self-righteous, lying hypocrite, and a complete failure in his own professed beliefs. He has really shown his true colors, in my opinion.

 

[FreeSpirit74]

All the attention is being given to Josh and making excuses for him while the victims will struggle with this for their entire lives. I know of a family that has a precious daughter that has drawn away from the family because she refuses to tell her husband of 40 years that she was molested. She stays away from the family in fear of someone letting it slip. They will never be free of this.

And that is an unfortunate choice. She could be free of it if she really wanted to be. She is one I would say seriously needs professional counseling to deal with her feelings of guilt/shame and WHY she feels this way. I'm guessing if she has been married for 40 years that this happened in the 1960's if not before, and the attitudes about sex in general were a lot different back in those days (my mother, like a LOT of women in those days, married my father in 1965 because he got her pregnant, for example). But it is different NOW, and she has nothing to be ashamed of. I only ever told one person IRL about that it happened to me, but that's not because I am ashamed. I'm very "meh" about it - yeah, it happened, it came to a head, we dealt with it in counseling, and moved on. People really don't need to know that about me, when there are so many other things about me that are far more interesting.

She is allowing herself to remain a victim of what happened to her. She needs to push on to becoming a survivor.

 

[katautumn]

Boycott what, something that happened 12 years ago and a child touched another child?

Funny how this works. When we're talking about a white, hetero, Christian teenager he's "just a kid". But when we're talking about a black teenage boy wearing a hoodie armed with a can of ice tea and a pack of Skittles he's a "thug who had it coming". Also, there isn't some statute of limitations on how long we're supposed to find someone committing a heinous sex crime appalling.

Josh was 14 at the time

Old enough to know better.

and has owned up to what he did.

Correction - his dad caught him in the act.

He confessed, got help,

*snort* You mean "help" from Bill Gothard, whose brother was arrested for kiddie inappropriate content and he, himself, had to resign due to sexually harassing women?

and even talked to an officer who showed him what would happen if he continued down that path.

Yeah, the family friend they went to AFTER they knew the statute of limitations to press charges had passed? The one who gave him a "stern talking to" and was later arrested for child inappropriate content? The one who is now saying Jim Bob and Josh lied to him when they said it only happened one time with one girl?

What he did was wrong and he has owned up to it. It has been 12 years!! Since then there is no evidence he has done anything.

Oh, I'm sorry. Should we examine his sisters' genitals to see if he left fingerprints behind?

 

[seashale76]

I certainly knew better at fourteen, as do the majority of fourteen-year-olds with even a semblance of moral development. This is why the appeal to his age doesn't wash with me.

 

[katautumn]

I certainly knew better at fourteen, as do the majority of fourteen-year-olds with even a semblance of moral development. This is why the appeal to his age doesn't wash with me.

Exactly. My husband was eight when the fifteen-year-old brother of his friend tried to molest him and another boy while they were playing at his house. You know the difference between "good touch/bad touch". Not to mention, one would think in a family where the parents espouse the view that incest should be met with the death penalty that Josh would have been taught from a young age that messing with your sisters is immoral.

Besides I am sure his sisters have been going through therapy <snip>

Do you know what sort of "therapy" girls go through in the quiverfull cult? It entails asking them first if they did anything to invite the unwanted sexual attention. Did they dress/act/speak immodestly? Were they outside of the protection of their father? Did they hang out with "evil friends"? Bill Gothard's sexual abuse therapy also blames being a child molester on asking sons to change baby diapers. Several real sexual abuse counselors and psychologists have weighed in on the Duggar scandal and agree, across the board, that the Duggars did everything wrong handling the molestation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The youngest was 5 and I come from a family of psychologist and psychology was a subject I studied in college. Any way sibling abuse of all ages is actually pretty common sadly. It can be caused by many different factors including living environment. The fact is Josh was not mature and sought after the weakest members of his family and someone who wouldn't tell on him. This is common and if confronted early it does not have to be a repeated pattern. It's been over a decade so far and no new victims. This is probably because he stopped this destructive behavior as the other facts seem to suggest.

Wow! I find that very odd. I have kept up with this story very closely since last Wednesday and all the experts that I read or listened to interviews with were rather shocked at the age of the youngest victim.

Can you share any of the psychology or psychological information that would make age not at all a factor in this situation? I'd like to look into that perspective a little more.

Thanks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Exactly. My husband was eight when the fifteen-year-old brother of his friend tried to molest him and another boy while they were playing at his house. You know the difference between "good touch/bad touch". Not to mention, one would think in a family where the parents espouse the view that incest should be met with the death penalty that Josh would have been taught from a young age that messing with your sisters is immoral.



Do you know what sort of "therapy" girls go through in the quiverfull cult? It entails asking them first if they did anything to invite the unwanted sexual attention. Did they dress/act/speak immodestly? Were they outside of the protection of their father? Did they hang out with "evil friends"? Bill Gothard's sexual abuse therapy also blames being a child molester on asking sons to change baby diapers. Several real sexual abuse counselors and psychologists have weighed in on the Duggar scandal and agree, across the board, that the Duggars did everything wrong handling the molestation.

I'm also interested in hearing the responses. You covered the Quiverfull part pretty thoroughly for such a short post.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Like I said, I find it disgusting how so many Christians are making excuses for this sexual predator of young girls, especially considering the age of his youngest victim. I think it's even more appalling because it seems to me that they're even trying to justify his sexual deviant behavior by repeatedly citing his age at the time or how long ago he was sexually preying on those poor girls and on that very small child. As if that matters or somehow excuses his sexual perversion and deviant behavior. We have no idea what else he and his family could still possibly be hiding from the public even today. So, he can repent all he wants and receive all the forgiveness from God he can get, and even supposedly receive forgiveness from his victims, but that doesn't change what he is, and that is a repeated child molester and a sexual predator of young girls. He doesn't deserve the benefit the doubt and he certainly doesn't deserve to be trusted around children ever again, least of all, be left alone with children ever again. He does deserve, however, to be shunned by society for the rest of his miserable existence as a repeated child molester, he does deserve to have a certain operation done to him, to ensure he won't be able to further his sexual deviance against young children ever again, and he does deserve to have his own children taken away from him, for their own physical safety and emotional well-being. He definitely deserves to have child protective services breathing down his neck for the rest of his life and watching his every move around his own children and around his younger siblings. I find all these excuses being made for him and his behavior incredibly sad. He's a repeated child molester and sexual predator of young girls, for heaven's sake. He sexually preyed on these young girls and one of his victims was five years old. Furthermore, his professed religion isn't a valid excuse for dismissing his sexually deviant behavior of child molestation either. There are no valid reasons to excuse his repeated sexually deviant behavior against these young girls. On a side note, I think that him professing to be Christian does make things much worse for him (as if that was possible), but not only is he a known sexual predator now, but he's also shown himself to be a self-righteous, lying hypocrite, and a complete failure in his own professed beliefs. He has really shown his true colors, in my opinion.

I agree with everything that you said.

I also feel that making this seem to be so much about religion/Christianity is a cop out for them. The parents chose to put their family on reality tv and expose their children to scrutiny. Then the family being so vocal about moral issues and Josh putting himself in such a high profile political related job with all these personal and family secrets was just not very smart. It's like they walked right into a brick wall running.

Really, they couldn't have handled it worse. It's weird in that sense too.

 

[sdmsanjose]

In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

By SDM
How do the parents, Mr. and Mrs. Dugger, fit the description of cult and specifically with the definition of SOCIALLY DEVIANT?


By C451

Yes. Having 19 children is far outside the norm. The extreme patriarchal control is well outside the norm. There is no reality show called "Two Kids and Counting" or "Bill and Sue Plus Two".

BY SDM
Reprinted below is sociologist definition of socially deviant

Viewing deviance as a violation of social norms, sociologists have characterized it as "any thought, feeling, or action that members of a social group judge to be a violation of their values or rules "or group" conduct, that violates definitions of appropriate and inappropriate conduct shared by the members of a social system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deviance_(sociology)


With that very broad sweeping definition above that would mean that a LOT of Americans are socially deviant. I would not be surprised if many posting on this thread fit the definition of socially deviant. I mean just look at part of the definition below

"any thought, feeling, or action that members of a social group judge to be a violation of their values or rules "


How many of you on this thread can say that you have not had a thought, feeling, or action that violates the values of a social group? Be honest.


The term socially deviant means very little in terms of a criteria to judge Mr. Duggar as having a cult. If that is reason to call Mr. Duggar a cult then a lot of us on this thread are a cult.

 

[Cute Tink]

In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices.

Please note the bolded part that your definition cite ends with. The family doesn't have to be "socially deviant" to be a cult.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I certainly knew better at fourteen, as do the majority of fourteen-year-olds with even a semblance of moral development. This is why the appeal to his age doesn't wash with me.

Except many abuse victims stop growing mentally in certain areas. It very common for abuse victims to continue, until they get counseling. Like if someone is sexually abused, they may do exactly what was done to them, until they understand it's wrong.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I do know that, but with a history of covering things up, I still think there should be an investigation to be certain there hasnt been anything else covered up. That JimBob hasnt touched his children, the children should all be interviewed by child protection services. This blows the lid on a subculture that has a history of this sort of wrong doing. I know that if this happened in the UK there would have been a full on 'inquiry' (as they call it here) and victims would be encouraged, then, to come forward. How many more victims of sex abuse are there in these cults. For the most part, I believe there are so many well meaning christians who adhere to teachings similar to those of this cult (and others) and they would be shocked to see the truth come out.

I'm sure they all ready invest in 2006. By that time, they may have been brain wash into believing other things. But I doubt that, if the girls were able to come in and make that police report in 2006. I know some parents would have told their children to be quite or lie, or you would go in foster care. And made sure they would be quite about that. I don't see that here. Josh could have even forgot where he picked this behavior up. If it was learned behavior by him being molested or seeing it. Then Josh might not doing it anymore, since he was caught. But if he feel attracted to children, then I would hope he would be still seeking therapy. Also I would hope he would stay away from little children. But good luck with his wife and their religion. I personally think Jim Bob did more then most parents would do, by telling a cop and allowing his daughters to tell the truth in the later police investigations. I live in a family were cousins were abused by different predators, but mother did nothing. Even hired to teen to do yard work, while the scared victim is scared in the bed room. This offender is probably still offending . In most cases the school turn these thing in, because a kid tells or something seems off,and it get investigated. Or some other parent might find out and turn it in.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I am sure his victims would rather not have their whole family paraded around for something that happened over a decade ago. Besides I am sure his sisters have been going through therapy and have been trying to put this all behind them. Just to have their entire family ripped apart and put them in the spot light.

I agree, If I was his victim and found out people, that are writing the articles. Are putting pictures and name of the sister that were possibly molested, since they fit the age. I would just die in side knowing my name and picture,are what people are seeing, when they read the story.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Here are a few facts that many people on here over look:

1. This happened 12 years ago, when Josh was 14 (he is now 27).

2. Being a minor means that ones judgment is not mature. So even tho what Josh did was wrong, he is not a pedophile nor should this destroy his whole adult life.

3. He confessed and owned up to what he did. Josh got help, helped build a house as part of his treatment (sex offenders are also told to keep busy and focused on the right things in life), and he talked to a police officer who showed him what would happen if he continued down that path.

4. He admitted to his wife before they got engaged and confessed his past sins to her family before they marred.

5. Part of being a Christian is forgiving one another as Christ has forgiven us. Thank God that he has more forgiveness then some people on here seems to have. People in the media are lining up to cast their stones at a sin that happened over a decade ago. If Josh seriously confesses and repents his sins are white as snow. As Josh has not repeated this act for 12 years and has repented to God and his Church. I will also forgive him and continue to pray for his family. God's beautiful grace is much bigger then our darkest sins.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." John 1:9

All those facts along with several other corresponding facts have been discussed. Due to time constraints I haven't been able to read through the entirety of this thread or others here regarding this matter, but I've read enough to see that it's been comprehensively addressed.

"Just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you must also forgive" isn't a Get Out of Jail Free card to be thrown down and have all unacceptable actions pardoned. Jesus died for our sins but we all still have to live with the consequences of them. Sometimes the consequences are immediate, and sometimes they come years, or even decades afterwards. Though misconduct of youth is more forgivable than that of adults, age still does not give absolution, and it's imperative to consider the specifics of the age, the typical moral and cognitive development expected for it, and other crucial factors. Josh was 14 and 15 years old and his offenses weren't singular or upon other peers, but repeated and inflicted on children more vulnerable than him due to being younger and smaller. I have a 14-year-old brother and he was thoroughly repulsed and offended at the very idea that someone his age isn't capable of completely understanding why trespassing into the bedrooms of five little girls on repeated occasions and molesting them while they slept is a horrendous betrayal, depraved, and abhorrent. He's already around 140 pounds and over 6 feet tall, and four-year-olds are just a tiny fraction of his size. He also knows how little sisters tend to put their trust into their much older siblings and are more likely to follow any instruction given to them, such as "don't tell anyone about this." If you've read the police report you'll see that Josh's crimes increased in severity and temerity over a two year time period, even after being caught and punished. He was clearly told that it was terribly wrong, and he kept doing it. His parents also chose to keep him in the family home, which would have psychologically impacted his victims even when he wasn't committing the offenses against them. Can you imagine how difficult it would be for a child to sleep peacefully through the night, trusting to be safe from harm, after being violated by her brother and knowing that he still had access to your bed? The way victims are affected by molestation isn't always linear - with triggers activating repressed emotions or memories sometimes years afterwards. The ramifications of his actions weren't contained to the past. Also, I'm curious to know how much effort you've put into advocating for clemency for the many 14-year-olds who've been given little reprieve for their youth for offenses they've committed. I wrote about some here: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-duggar-scandal.7889749/page-3#post-67996805

There are statute of limitations specifying the duration for which a crime can be criminally prosecuted, but time itself isn't an absolver. The Duggars are far from being the first to experience aftermaths from misdeeds of the distant past. A few years ago a video went viral on YouTube of a Texas judge (who is a Christian) savagely beating his teenage daughter with a belt while screaming profanities at her. The beating had taken place in the early 2000s when his daughter was a minor, and the statute of limitations had since expired, but that didn't limit the public from reacting and taking action. There was outrage and vehement discussions about the hypocrisy of a family court judge responsible for making decisions on behalf of children showing such poor decision-making in his treatment towards his own child. The uproar prompted him to have to take a leave of absence, and when he was up for reelection last year voters didn't stand behind him. He was ousted. Boycotting advertisers of the Duggar's show is a way for the public to vote against their conduct, and to say that they don't think these people deserve to be in a prominent position where they are casting judgement upon others when their own judgements have been so unsound.

 

[Smidlee]

This family is in the public eye, and that is why its out in the open.

Yeap. That's the price of being in the public eye, one minute they will praise you then the next they will crucify you.