Don't you wish misunderstandings and absurd conclusions like this didn't exist?

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This is short, yet breathtakingly bad and indicative as to why Orthodoxy has a ton of misinformation and ridiculous conclusions to wade through in order to get the message out that WE are the True Church of Christ!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtPCSPUwcQg
 
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Lukaris

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I think the former Protestant pastor has some confused recollection when he spoke to Orthodox clerics by claiming he could have easily been offered a priesthood and to study in "Constantinople." Constantinople??????!!!; the "secular" Turkish government has had the Orthodox seminary at Halki closed for over 40 years.

It is a simple.thing to claim that if only the Orthodox would acknowledge the alleged supremacy of the Papal chair. This was tried at thee Council of Florence in the 1440s when Byzantium was on life support even as Catholic priest Fr Lorenzo Valla had exposed a falsified document: The Donation of Constantine as a fraud & yet for centuries had been used against the Orthodox Church. Let us also recall the serious schism within the Catholic Church of the dual papacies in Rome & Avignon during the 14th c. which could not have helped to persuade Orthodox clerics (at times under near coercion) to accept Papal supremacy claims at Florence. In addition the ongoing doctrinal problems of purgatory & the filioque were unresolved.

There are modern problems too, while celibacy is required among Latin rite priests, it is not required among Eastern rite priests. Yet in early 20th c. America, the Vatican tried to enforce celibacy among Eastern rite priests. I had heard that this was later rescinded but I have later heard conflicting information so this seems problematic.
 
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Yeah, that part cracked me up, too! And the stuff he was saying that if there isn't ONE supreme, universal head of the Church on Earth, it's a body without a head. Silly imagery to invoke, and it's plain as day that the guy never really studied the Early Church.

He talks about how Orthodoxy is "divided." And again, through the Catholic monarchical overlord model of Church polity, anything is division. They can't stand the idea that we have many patriarchs, bishops, and clergy living in varied lands speaking different languages and having different cultures AND YET we all have the same liturgy and are 100% Orthodox Christians and all without a pope!

I often wonder why guys like this Jones fella never question the Pope and the custodianship of the liturgy? Theoretically NOBODY should protect, guard, and bless the liturgy like the pope, right? If the Pope is the steward of the liturgy and such a wonderful universal pastor, one wonders how their liturgy fell to ashes and has turned into a Baptist hoe-down with a touch of ceremony thrown in? The proof is in the pudding if you ask me.

Their knowledge of history is appalling at times. Most of these wacky evangelicals lived an "infallibility of Scripture" mindset for decades and traded that up for "infallibility of the Pope" mindset. Same song, different dance slightly....but their need for a manual of perfect leadership go-to thinking doesn't change.

I think the former Protestant pastor has some confused recollection when he spoke to Orthodox clerics by claiming he could have easily been offered a priesthood and to study in "Constantinople." Constantinople??????!!!; the "secular" Turkish government has had the Orthodox seminary at Halki closed for over 40 years.

It is a simple.thing to claim that if only the Orthodox would acknowledge the alleged supremacy of the Papal chair. This was tried at thee Council of Florence in the 1440s when Byzantium was on life support even as Catholic priest Fr Lorenzo Valla had exposed a falsified document: The Donation of Constantine as a fraud & yet for centuries had been used against the Orthodox Church. Let us also recall the serious schism within the Catholic Church of the dual papacies in Rome & Avignon during the 14th c. which could not have helped to persuade Orthodox clerics (at times under near coercion) to accept Papal supremacy claims at Florence. In addition the ongoing doctrinal problems of purgatory & the filioque were unresolved.

There are modern problems too, while celibacy is required among Latin rite priests, it is not required among Eastern rite priests. Yet in early 20th c. America, the Vatican tried to enforce celibacy among Eastern rite priests. I had heard that this was later rescinded but I have later heard conflicting information so this seems problematic.
 
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Today at coffee hour, our deacon/my godfather, said, "hey, at least the Catholics have this Pope Francis character now. He ought to be the best Orthodox recruitment tool we've had in years! Have you heard the stuff this guy is saying!?" :p^_^

Yeah, on a scale of religious evolution you go Protestant to Catholic to ORTHODOX!

Well both of those guys on the EWTN show still made a better move so God bless them for that.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Today at coffee hour, our deacon/my godfather, said, "hey, at least the Catholics have this Pope Francis character now. He ought to be the best Orthodox recruitment tool we've had in years! Have you heard the stuff this guy is saying!?" :p^_^

Yeah, on a scale of religious evolution you go Protestant to Catholic to ORTHODOX!

haha, yeah. it's kinda funny how I have a lot of Catholic friends who love what the Pope is doing, and I kinda just smile knowing that Orthodoxy has never stopped doing it that way.

ah well, so it goes.
 
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Ignatius21

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A friend at my parish has a well-intentioned but overzealous Catholic coworker--a convert from Protestantism--who is pushing Scott Hahn books at him, recommending podcasts, EWTN shows and the whole bit.

I went down that road more than a decade ago when I was unbaptized with no particular religious affiliation. Catholic apologists probably had more to do with my becoming Reformed, than any Protestant ever did.

But man, they have an answer and a decontextualized church father quote for everything.
 
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Yeah, the apologetics aspect of Catholicism is eerie in some ways. While Catholics were pretty much idle, uneducated, and easily converted because of their ignorance of their own faith for decades, I can see why they might be excited, on one hand, at the thought of becoming educated and able to explain their beliefs, but on the other hand the information is, as you say, decontextualized and often wayyyy out of whack!

I sometimes get nervous about AFR or Orthodox folks doing apologetics, because I don't want us to become the infomercial that Catholicism has become! ^_^:p

A friend at my parish has a well-intentioned but overzealous Catholic coworker--a convert from Protestantism--who is pushing Scott Hahn books at him, recommending podcasts, EWTN shows and the whole bit.

I went down that road more than a decade ago when I was unbaptized with no particular religious affiliation. Catholic apologists probably had more to do with my becoming Reformed, than any Protestant ever did.

But man, they have an answer and a decontextualized church father quote for everything.
 
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xenia

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I'd be happy if the Catholics would just believe in basic Catholicism!

We have a Meals on Wheels route and all of the people on our route are elderly Catholics.

1. One studies the Bible with a JW lady every Saturday and got a little huffy when I told her to be careful, that the JWs deny the Trinity;

2. One watches Oprah and Dr. Oz all day and rejoices at every bizarre thing she sees;

3. One put the small icon of Theotokos that I gave her under a pyramid because she believes in pyramidology and every other New Age teaching. She especially likes Edgar Cayce. Despite the fact that she has numerous heretical beliefs, a lady from the local RC parish comes and gives her communion, without the benefit of confession or even a conversation with the parish priest, who she has never met.

4. One gives money to Evangelical ministries.

5. One pair of brothers seem to have abandoned the faith entirely.

None of them seem to have a grasp on their own theology. When I ask "Don't you Catholics believe thus and so?" they get huffy. (I am not at all aggressive, by the way, just conversational.)

So if the Catholics would just believe in Catholicism, I would be glad.
 
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No kidding. I'd also be happy if they would wake up and quit thinking the modern post-Vatican II Mass is "normal" and Latin is weirdsville! LOL

I'd be happy if the Catholics would just believe in basic Catholicism!

We have a Meals on Wheels route and all of the people on our route are elderly Catholics.

1. One studies the Bible with a JW lady every Saturday and got a little huffy when I told her to be careful, that the JWs deny the Trinity;

2. One watches Oprah and Dr. Oz all day and rejoices at every bizarre thing she sees;

3. One put the small icon of Theotokos that I gave her under a pyramid because she believes in pyramidology and every other New Age teaching. She especially likes Edgar Cayce. Despite the fact that she has numerous heretical beliefs, a lady from the local RC parish comes and gives her communion, without the benefit of confession or even a conversation with the parish priest, who she has never met.

4. One gives money to Evangelical ministries.

5. One pair of brothers seem to have abandoned the faith entirely.

None of them seem to have a grasp on their own theology. When I ask "Don't you Catholics believe thus and so?" they get huffy. (I am not at all aggressive, by the way, just conversational.)

So if the Catholics would just believe in Catholicism, I would be glad.
 
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ArmyMatt

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No kidding. I'd also be happy if they would wake up and quit thinking the modern post-Vatican II Mass is "normal" and Latin is weirdsville! LOL

there is some dogmatic call in show that I used to watch on EWTN, and I swear every caller asking about RC theology, almost always went St Augustine - Aquinas - Trent - Vatican II. sometimes with some Francis of Assisi thrown in for some mysticism. it always left me wondering about what they had to say about Chrysostom or Nicaea.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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No kidding. I'd also be happy if they would wake up and quit thinking the modern post-Vatican II Mass is "normal" and Latin is weirdsville! LOL

And I don't get why Latin is equated with traditional - why there isn't traditional liturgy in the language of the the people. :confused:

Mary
 
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rusmeister

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And I don't get why Latin is equated with traditional - why there isn't traditional liturgy in the language of the the people. :confused:

Mary

Historically, until Vatican II, it WAS traditional. It was part and parcel of the Catholic faith that you learned the Mass in Latin.

Not saying that's best but I don't think it a great wrong. If you like, you can think of it as the bathwater that got thrown out with the baby. Certainly Vatican II did more to damage any theological similarity to both Catholic and Orthodox historical tradition than anything else the RCC ever did.
 
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rusmeister

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I know about the history. My confusion is that those Catholics who want to return to a traditional mass also seem to want to keep the Latin - as though traditional is not compatible with the language of the people.

Mary

My limited understanding is that either those Catholics really think the Mass IS better in Latin, or at least that it would be better to suffer a Latin Mass than live with the departure from Catholic Tradition represented by everything else at V-II.
 
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In concur with Mary. I swear I NEVER understood why the Catholic Church didn't just make some small changes to the Mass and translate it into English properly? I grew up in the wake of the post-Vatican II nightmare. How the Catholic Church could do such a SICKENING job in translating the Latin is beyond me! Take our liturgy: Peace be with all of you....and with thy spirit! In the Catholic Church the Latin translated the exact same way, but the Catholics translated it to "and also with you!" WHAT IN THE WORLD? That's but a small sample of the endless butchery.

Why to put the Mass in the language of the people did they have to turn the priest around and make him face the people instead of the altar? Why did they have to insert strumming, annoying, folky guitars and blathering singers? Why did they have to take the incredible vestments and turn them into something so plain, drab, and lacking in majesty. Why did incense have to disappear? Why did Catholic icons disappear? Yes, they DID have them! Why did blessing with holy water dry up (pardon the pun)? Why less bowing? Why extraordinary ministers? Why? Why? Why?

I say return to the Tridentine Mass and use the native tongues, end of story! No Latin necessary unless they want to use them in small parts like the sanctus, sanctus, sanctus or the agnus dei or pater noster, etc. Why not return to Gregorian Chant? It was INCREDIBLE!

The Catholic Church, as Rus pointed out, really ruined any even remote chances of ecumenical hopes with Orthodoxy but creating Vatican II and the sad, tragic, awful aftermath of it.
 
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At that funeral this morning, they played Amazing Grace. I swear hearing that song is like finger nails running down an old-school chalkboard for me! eesh!

Vatican II was a type of liturgical rape job. I weep when I watch that liturgy these days. I had high hopes that Benedict XVI was going to clean it up. He did a tiny bit, but the damage was so profound that it would take more than a few verbiage alterations to repair!

it's ironic that the post Vatican II reforms, which were designed to keep folks in the RCC, have merely driven many away.
 
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