Does the Orthodox Church teach that God is just?

[~Anastasia~]

I asked this in Traditional Theology, but I know some won't/don't post there, and an Orthodox-specific discussion might come out a little differently, so I am posting to ask here as well.

We often list God's attributes. God is just. God is merciful. God is love. God is righteous. God is good. But I wonder, Is God just?

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not wanting to malign God's character - God forbid!!!

So … is God just? And what do we mean by that? Is God just by human standards, or does He have some other value of Justice?

The question is asked "Will not the God of the whole earth do good?" And of course He will always do what is right, and He is perfectly good. But is right and good necessarily "justice"?

For example, is it "just" to offer the same pay to someone who only works a short time compared to someone who toils all day? Is it "just" to forgive our sins at all? For that matter, do we actually WANT God to be "just"? Because if we are honest, I don't think any of us wants to receive what we "deserve" from Him.

What do you think?

 

[buzuxi02]

By human standards no. There maybe specific times, places and societies where it aligns with God's will. But overall human standards change and further differ from culture to culture. Its no different than saying God is Love. What is Ayape? How did the ancient philosophers use the word? Does that original ancient meaning have any resemblance to our standard today?

I think the saying "God works in mysterious ways" or from whats written in the book of Job demonstrates that God's justice is not our justice.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes He is just. remember in that parable, the promised wage for all was the same. He fulfilled His promise to all of them. the problem is that His sense of justice is so far beyond ours, that we often mistake His justice for a lack of it, and we try to fathom what cannot be fathomed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

By human standards no. There maybe specific times, places and societies where it aligns with God's will. But overall human standards change and further differ from culture to culture. Its no different than saying God is Love. What is Ayape? How did the ancient philosophers use the word? Does that original ancient meaning have any resemblance to our standard today?

I think the saying "God works in mysterious ways" or from whats written in the book of Job demonstrates that God's justice is not our justice.

Thank you, buzuxi.

I've gotten both "yes" and "no" as valid answers, depending upon how one looks at the question. (I've asked others as well.)

You bring up another point though. I'm not sure (but maybe you ARE right) ... But I'm not sure if we can compare it to "is God love/agape?"

Perhaps it is easier to demonstrate God's love through Scripture and our understanding of Him than it is to demonstrate His justice? Not only that, but the Scripture explicitly SAYS that "God is love/agape" ... but I'm not sure where we even get the foundation for "God is just".

 

[~Anastasia~]

yes He is just. remember in that parable, the promised wage for all was the same. He fulfilled His promise to all of them. the problem is that His sense of justice is so far beyond ours, that we often mistake His justice for a lack of it, and we try to fathom what cannot be fathomed.

You have a good point, ArmyMatt, and thank you. Most specifically in that Parable, I've had that thought. I do believe in that actual case, it IS just, because He does what He says. It's only our pettiness in comparing His blessings as given to another, and our perceived "worth" compared to them where the idea of "injustice" comes in. Still, I chose to use that parable for illustration.

What of the Prodigal Son? Was that Father just? I've actually wondered about that. It's not a good illustration of God, because my answer hinges on the fact that the Father in the parable had limited resources (though apparently great ones, they are still finite since he is human). And essentially he must spend his obedient son's inheritance in order to welcome home and benefit the prodigal. (We also would have to consider an inheritance as already "belonging to" the sons while the father yet lives.) For those reasons, it's not a good picture. But it is one that Christ chooses to illustrate Truth to His listeners.

 

[ArmyMatt]

oh I think the Father was totally just. He tells the older son that everything He has is his (which would include the party for the younger son).

 

[buzuxi02]

Well in the parable of the prodigal its how anyone can comeback to God and be recieved as his child. Similiar to when Jesus said that a shepherd will leave the 99 sheep to find and bring back the one that went astray.

Now scripture does portray Him as just (Deut 32.4 for example). But our standards may not be the same. Hence what does it mean to say God is just? What does it mean to say God is love?. Some people believe in "tough love", others will say tough love is without compassion and hence not love at all etc.
Was it just that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah? A century ago everyone would have said it was and his justice spared Lot and his kids. Today we say it was mean spirited and that He should of preserved his wife from turning into a pillar of salt.

 

[Cappadocious]

We understand true "justice" and "righteousness" to be one and the same thing.

Isaac of Syria said that if God were just, we would have no hope.

But I think he is referring to the justice of the Old Adam, the natural man. A fallen or remedial or, at best, shadowy justice.

But God's justice is the true justice that is ultimately worked in Christ. This is easier to understand if we remember that true justice and righteousness are the same thing.

Azariah prayed:
"Blessed art thou, O Lord, God of our fathers, and worthy of praise;
and thy name is glorified for ever.
For thou art just in all that thou hast done to us,
and all thy works are true and thy ways right,
and all thy judgments are truth."

God's judgments are just because he chooses what is just, and to judge is to choose. This is why Psalm 67 says:

"A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows is God in his holy habitation." To judge the widow is to choose justly to defend and provide for her.

 

[Cappadocious]

What of the Prodigal Son? Was that Father just? I've actually wondered about that. It's not a good illustration of God, because my answer hinges on the fact that the Father in the parable had limited resources

God only has one Word, Wisdom, Power and Son sharing his essence before the ages, who holds for him super-infinite and irreplaceable worth.

So in a sense God did give us the only "limited" resources he had, as he also gave his only Holy Spirit and Comforter to us, and through them he gave us His only Self.

 

[Cappadocious]

oh I think the Father was totally just. He tells the older son that everything He has is his (which would include the party for the younger son).

Yep.

 

[truefiction1]

Just, because merciful.

 

[Not David]

Revival thread

Didn't St Isaac of Syria say to not call God just?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Revival thread

Didn't St Isaac of Syria say to not call God just?

IIRC, it was probably that quote that initially got me thinking about this question. I don't remember the quote, but basically it was essentially that if God were JUST and gave us what we deserved/earned ... we would all be in trouble. Better to thank God that He is merciful.

But I don't discuss it much because some folks would take offense and not get it. Too forensic an emphasis on justification I think has been part of the result of men NEEDING to be able to say that God is perfectly just.

But then as Fr Matt points out above, there's also the matter of what looks like justice to us, sometimes.

 

[Not David]

IIRC, it was probably that quote that initially got me thinking about this question. I don't remember the quote, but basically it was essentially that if God were JUST and gave us what we deserved/earned ... we would all be in trouble. Better to thank God that He is merciful.

But I don't discuss it much because some folks would take offense and not get it. Too forensic an emphasis on justification I think has been part of the result of men NEEDING to be able to say that God is perfectly just.

But then as Fr Matt points out above, there's also the matter of what looks like justice to us, sometimes.

I guess that's part of the Protestant bias that we all don't go to heaven because God is just and doesn't allow iniquity in his presence.

 

[FenderTL5]

If I were to opine, I'd tend to think the answer is yes, but God's justice is not necessarily what we think of as justice. (see Fr Matt).
and yes, the elder son in the Prodigal is an example.

 

[buzuxi02]

God is merciful, not necessarily just. If he was he would just destroy us and start over.

 

[MariaJLM]

It always seemed odd to me to try to define God in human terms. The only part of God that even comes remotely close is the Son but we have to remember that while, yes, he was human he was also divine. That being said, God is not bound to human morality or traits. What seems just to us may not seem just to God and vice versa.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It always seemed odd to me to try to define God in human terms. The only part of God that even comes remotely close is the Son but we have to remember that while, yes, he was human he was also divine. That being said, God is not bound to human morality or traits. What seems just to us may not seem just to God and vice versa.

yep. God is so just, His sense of justice is so beyond anything we can come up with it's not just as we would know it. but that "not justice" is true justice.

 

[SingularityOne]

yep. God is so just, His sense of justice is so beyond anything we can come up with it's not just as we would know it. but that "not justice" is true justice.

Apophatic justice ftw

 

[~Anastasia~]

I guess that's part of the Protestant bias that we all don't go to heaven because God is just and doesn't allow iniquity in his presence.

Some even go so far as to say that God is unable to bear the presence of sin.

One has to wonder about Satan presenting himself and having the little conversation about Job. Not to mention Jesus' entire life on earth surrounded by sinful humans (Jesus being God of course).

They tend to get it backwards. It's not God who is unable to bear the presence of sin. It's sinful man who is unable to bear the presence of a Holy God. Even Moses would have died ...