Does the Bible teach solid dome flat earth cosmology?

lesliedellow

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"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

So apparently, not only is there a solid dome above us, but it is holding back a heavenly ocean. At least there is if you insist upon reading Genesis 1 absolutely literally, which, of course, YECs do insist upon.
 
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Calminian

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"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

So apparently, not only is there a solid dome above us, but it is holding back a heavenly ocean. At least there is if you insist upon reading Genesis 1 absolutely literally, which, of course, YECs do insist upon.

Except the verse above says literally says nothing of a solid dome, as both raqiya' and shamayim refer to an open expanse.

But have we finally found a solid-domer that will defend his assertion? Or will this guy run for the hills like the rest?
 
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Calminian

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Cal wrote:

No, you can't. We've seen in the previous threads where you tried to that you can't. We can list them and go over them if you'd like.

Are clouds in the heavens? Do you view clouds embedded in some solid mass?

There you go!

Now which of these do you think proves heaven is a solid dome? Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29, Ezk 1:26
None of them speak of shamayim or raqiya' being a solid dome, and some of them are not referring to the heavens at all. Please clarify.

It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1).

Yes, and these all refer to clouds. Clouds are called the windows of heaven, the doors of heaven and jars of heaven. If you look at the context, they are all clouds. And where do we find clouds? Yep, in the heavens, which must be an open expanse as clouds clearly move through an open expanse.

The more you talk about clouds, the more you sink your own arguments. Just a friendly warning.

Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14).

I have no idea what you think the ezekiel passage proves, but the passage in Job is spoken by a fallible human trying to lecture Job. It is not a word from God, nor a word endorsed by God. To the contrary, God rebukes Job and his tormentors as not having understanding. Think about that. You're trying to prove heaven is solid by quoting a man God has rebuked as ignorant.

Also, neither the word shamayim nor raqiya is mentioned in this verse in Job. How ironic is that? It's a different word that is actually referring to clouds or the cloudy skies.

So besides quoting "scholars" do you have an actual argument yourself? These are the same arguments I've already refuted. Do you have anything new?

It is described as a dome, but not solid in many passages.

Nope. Sorry.
 
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ChetSinger

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...I have no idea what you think the ezekiel passage proves, but the passage in Job is spoken by a fallible human trying to lecture Job. It is not a word from God, nor a word endorsed by God. To the contrary, God rebukes Job and his tormentors as not having understanding. Think about that. You're trying to prove heaven is solid by quoting a man God has rebuked as ignorant.

Also, neither the word shamayim nor raqiya is mentioned in this verse in Job. How ironic is that? It's a different word that is actually referring to clouds or the cloudy skies.
I agree with you about Job 37. Verses 1-18 have nothing to do with creation; they're a discourse on God's power as seen via weather. I've studied it in detail and have concluded that verse 18 is describing the clouds of leaden overcast sky. I like in Pennsylvania and that's literally what the sky sometimes looks like.

Just one footnote, though. God rebukes Job's three friends, but not Elihu who is speaking in chapter 37.
 
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Calminian

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It is described as a dome, but not solid in many passages.

Actually, no it's not.
I agree with you about Job 37. Verses 1-18 have nothing to do with creation; they're a discourse on God's power as seen via weather. I've studied it in detail and have concluded that verse 18 is describing the clouds of leaden overcast sky. I like in Pennsylvania and that's literally what the sky sometimes looks like.

Just one footnote, though. God rebukes Job's three friends, but not Elihu who is speaking in chapter 37.

I believe God was rebuking them all, including Job at various times. IOW's we would both agree that Elihu is not inspired and was not endorsed by God in any sense, and that according to God all of them were making claims out of ignorance, especially considering he made many of the same identical arguments the others made. Elihu was condemning Job on the same basis as the others. None of them were speaking from wisdom or knowledge.

That said, shachaq in the hebrew is a reference to clouds or overcast, as you mentioned, not the heavens or expanse spoken of in the creation. That's the most important point. The people making these claims are banking on their readers ignorance of the hebrew. The heavens are never described as solid or soft in scripture. They are an expanse.
 
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SkyWriting

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Calminian

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I agree with you about Job 37. Verses 1-18 have nothing to do with creation; they're a discourse on God's power as seen via weather. I've studied it in detail and have concluded that verse 18 is describing the clouds of leaden overcast sky. I like in Pennsylvania and that's literally what the sky sometimes looks like.

Just one footnote, though. God rebukes Job's three friends, but not Elihu who is speaking in chapter 37.

Your point is taken. I just wanted to point out that Elihu is not making different arguments than Job's 3 friends made. That to me means that a rebuke on them is a rebuke to those who agree with them. Also, notice that Elihu goes after Job, while God says Job spoke right of Him. So yes, if you're looking for a specific rebuke, no I may have overstepped. I'll explain it differently in the future.
 
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Calminian

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gluadys

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Except the verse above says literally says nothing of a solid dome, as both raqiya' and shamayim refer to an open expanse.

I stay away for six months and plunge right back into the same conversation.
You are begging the question, Calminian. You are trying to refute the idea that 'raqiya' and 'shamayim' cannot refer to a solid structure by defining them as 'an open expanse'. But the text nowhere says an open expanse.

The controversy, in fact, is whether the expanse referred to is open (as modern cosmology would hold to) or a closed, solid structure (as ancient cosmology would hold to). We can both agree on it being an expanse.

As to your opening question: "Does the Bible teach solid dome flat earth cosmology?" I would say the answer is "No, it does not." But don't think I have changed my mind. I don't think the biblical authors were interested in teaching anything about physical cosmology.

What I do think is that they assumed the ancient cosmology as a given, and so couched the things they were called to teach about in the terminology of that cosmology. Had they been writing with modern cosmology in mind and to a people who take that cosmology as a given, they would have used terminology consistent with that cosmology.

My real question to you is: why would you consider the Bible to be deficient if I am right?
 
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ChetSinger

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From what I've read, the ancients did believe the raqiya was hard. Josephus, for example, calls it "crystalline".

What I haven't yet seen is anything in the scriptures where God himself says that. From what I can see, the ancients were reading something into the text that wasn't actually there.
 
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Calminian

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From what I've read, the ancients did believe the raqiya was hard. Josephus, for example, calls it "crystalline".

What I haven't yet seen is anything in the scriptures where God himself says that. From what I can see, the ancients were reading something into the text that wasn't actually there.

Indeed. Throughout history, theologians have read their contemporary sciences into the text, just as today, they read millions of years and gaps into the text. Man has a proclivity of always wanting to be in line with majority science.
 
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gluadys

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From what I've read, the ancients did believe the raqiya was hard. Josephus, for example, calls it "crystalline".

What I haven't yet seen is anything in the scriptures where God himself says that. From what I can see, the ancients were reading something into the text that wasn't actually there.

Josephus was a Hellenized Jew of the 1st century AD. He was using a Greek model of the cosmos which assumes a spherical earth at the centre surrounded by crystalline spheres. This is not the model found in scripture. Scripture, for example, nowhere refers to earth as spherical. Circular yes, but not spherical.

There are three passages in scripture I can think of that indirectly suggest 'raqiya' or 'shamayim' refers to a solid structure. Two are comparisons: in Job 37:18, the skies 'shamayim' are described as "hard as a mirror of cast metal". In Isaiah 40:22 they are described as a canopy, spread out like a tent. While a tent-like material is softer than cast metal, it is still a solid. Another instance of an indirect suggestion that the sky is hard comes from Job 9:26 which refers to "the pillars of heaven". If the sky was seen as simply atmosphere fading into the vacuum of space, why would it need the support of pillars?
 
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Calminian

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Josephus was a Hellenized Jew of the 1st century AD. He was using a Greek model of the cosmos which assumes a spherical earth at the centre surrounded by crystalline spheres. This is not the model found in scripture. Scripture, for example, nowhere refers to earth as spherical. Circular yes, but not spherical.

Well if erets means land, then neither would make sense. Land is not flat, but has mountains and valleys and coastlines (ends). I thought we agreed on this.

There are three passages in scripture I can think of that indirectly suggest 'raqiya' or 'shamayim' refers to a solid structure. Two are comparisons: in Job 37:18, the skies 'shamayim' are described as "hard as a mirror of cast metal".

But the word her is not shamayim nor raqiya. It's a completely different word Elihu us using, that actually refers to clouds or cloudy skies. Also, God is in no way endorsing Elihu as a source of truth. He's one of Job's counselors, and God defends Job from them in the end.

In Isaiah 40:22 they are described as a canopy, spread out like a tent. While a tent-like material is softer than cast metal, it is still a solid.

Right but the simile need not be referring to the solidity, but rather the 3 dimensionality of the tents. Our atmosphere could in modern terms be described metaphorically as a surrounding canopy, and clouds in scripture are often referred to as such, and were known by the ancients not to be solid. There is nothing in this passage that suggests a solid barrier.

Another instance of an indirect suggestion that the sky is hard comes from Job 9:26 which refers to "the pillars of heaven". If the sky was seen as simply atmosphere fading into the vacuum of space, why would it need the support of pillars?

The only place I see this term is in Job 26:11, "The pillars of heaven tremble, And are astonished at His rebuke."

Again, this is another unendorsed speaker (I don't recall which one). And pillars of heaven here is actually one of the many references in Job to clouds.

Pillars are visible and 3 dimensional. The solid dome theory wouldn't speak of pillars at all. It wouldn't make any sense. What's going on here is, clouds, which are 3 dimensional and come in various shapes are described metaphorically as pillars of heaven, and the trembling is referring to thunder. Look at the context of the passage you are citing. It's all about clouds.

8 He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
9 He covers the face of His throne,
And spreads His cloud over it.
10 He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters,
At the boundary of light and darkness.
11 The pillars of heaven tremble,
And are astonished at His rebuke.
12 He stirs up the sea with His power,
And by His understanding He breaks up the storm.
13 By His Spirit He adorned the heavens;
His hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
14 Indeed these are the mere edges of His ways,
And how small a whisper we hear of Him!
But the thunder of His power who can understand?”

Clouds and thundering and trembling often go together in biblical poetry, as most of the ancient associated clouds with thunder and trembling.
 
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ChetSinger

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...There are three passages in scripture I can think of that indirectly suggest 'raqiya' or 'shamayim' refers to a solid structure. Two are comparisons: in Job 37:18, the skies 'shamayim' are described as "hard as a mirror of cast metal". In Isaiah 40:22 they are described as a canopy, spread out like a tent. While a tent-like material is softer than cast metal, it is still a solid. Another instance of an indirect suggestion that the sky is hard comes from Job 9:26 which refers to "the pillars of heaven". If the sky was seen as simply atmosphere fading into the vacuum of space, why would it need the support of pillars?
I've put some study into Job 37:18 and don't think it's applicable to this question. Here's why.

First of all, the speaker is Elihu, not God. So we're reading Elihu's understanding of the subject, whatever that may be; this isn't dictation from God.

But I also ask you to read the entire passage, verses 1 through 18, to put this particular verse in context. The passage is extolling God's power as seen through various kinds of inclement weather. And verse 18 isn't describing the raqiya or shamayim, but the shachaq. And some Bibles such as YLT and NET translate that word as clouds, not skies. Certainly not the heavens.

So what's verse 18 really talking about? I think it's talking about the silvery cloud cover that often accompanies snow storms. I live in the US northeast, and Elihu's description of the clouds matches what I myself often see: a solid, silvery, featureless sheen that stretches from horizon to horizon.

I don't think this verse is describing the raqiya at all, but a particular kind of cloud formation. What do you think?
 
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gluadys

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First, I will have to check out the meaning of 'shachaq' and consider why the usual translation is 'sky' or 'heaven'. I am a bit suspicious of changes from traditional translations which seem to be made solely to bolster a particular theological interpretation. That is a different thing than updating because the English has become obsolete or because there are new insights into the meaning of the Hebrew. I would hope translations using these newer phrases at least indicate in footnotes what other translations are possible.

I agree we are not getting dictation since inspiration is not to be equated with dictation. Nor was the writer present on the occasion, but is writing after the fact. Indeed Job was a proverbial figure who featured in many stories of the time, so strictly speaking, the words are not Elihu's either, but those of the author who gave them to this character in his story about Job. Nevertheless, I am sure you will agree that the author was just as inspired in writing Elihu's speech as in writing Job's speeches and God's speeches.
 
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ChetSinger

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First, I will have to check out the meaning of 'shachaq' and consider why the usual translation is 'sky' or 'heaven'. I am a bit suspicious of changes from traditional translations which seem to be made solely to bolster a particular theological interpretation. That is a different thing than updating because the English has become obsolete or because there are new insights into the meaning of the Hebrew. I would hope translations using these newer phrases at least indicate in footnotes what other translations are possible.
Sure. I have no problem with translating 'shachaq' as 'skies', and I don't think my conclusion is affected if it is. What I observe is that the entire passage is admiring God's power as seen via inclement weather, and Elihu's description of those skies matches what I see when it snows.

I agree we are not getting dictation since inspiration is not to be equated with dictation. Nor was the writer present on the occasion, but is writing after the fact. Indeed Job was a proverbial figure who featured in many stories of the time, so strictly speaking, the words are not Elihu's either, but those of the author who gave them to this character in his story about Job. Nevertheless, I am sure you will agree that the author was just as inspired in writing Elihu's speech as in writing Job's speeches and God's speeches.
I don't think that matters because regardless of the authorship or inspiration the words come from Elihu's mouth, not God's. They are Elihu's own observations and conclusions. This passage can't be construed to mean that God himself is claiming the shamayim is a hard shell because God himself isn't saying anything.

Your thoughts?
 
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gluadys

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Sure. I have no problem with translating 'shachaq' as 'skies', and I don't think my conclusion is affected if it is. What I observe is that the entire passage is admiring God's power as seen via inclement weather, and Elihu's description of those skies matches what I see when it snows.


I don't think that matters because regardless of the authorship or inspiration the words come from Elihu's mouth, not God's. They are Elihu's own observations and conclusions. This passage can't be construed to mean that God himself is claiming the shamayim is a hard shell because God himself isn't saying anything.

Your thoughts?

Well, it certainly appears there is a lot of flexibility to a translator here. The most common translation of 'shachaq' is "cloud". "Dust", "sky" and "heaven" are also used. My guess is that the KJV translators used "sky" because it is embedded in the phrase "spread out the [shachaq]" and that is reminiscent of many times where it is completed by 'shamayim'. The word translated as "hard" also has many possible meanings. Mostly it means "strong" or "mighty" and is often used of people in this sense. But it can also mean "hard" or "firm". Again the context "like a mirror of cast metal" probably influenced translators toward "hard" (though the KJV has "strong").
Still what does the sky have to be strong or mighty for? It is an adjective that makes sense if the thought behind it is that the sky is holding up the waters above the heavens. Any material would need a lot of strength for that.

I am not inclined to see too much relevance in the fact that Elihu is speaking. Just because he is not God doesn't mean everything he says is suspect or incorrect.

Then, too, I am not saying that the bible is making a claim that the sky is solid. Rather that biblical authors simply assumed this to be the case and so spoke as if it were--just as they assumed the other features of the cosmos mentioned in scripture: an earth set on foundations, a storehouse in the sky for snow and hail, and so on. Such assumptions are not a claim, because one does not even think about them. It is just a natural way of speaking at the time.
 
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Calminian

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Well, it certainly appears there is a lot of flexibility to a translator here. The most common translation of 'shachaq' is "cloud". "Dust", "sky" and "heaven" are also used. My guess is that the KJV translators used "sky" because it is embedded in the phrase "spread out the [shachaq]" and that is reminiscent of many times where it is completed by 'shamayim'.

But the immediate context is clouds.

The word translated as "hard" also has many possible meanings. Mostly it means "strong" or "mighty" and is often used of people in this sense.

Exactly! Yet in this case, it's speaking of mighty thunderous clouds. It makes perfect sense.

I am not inclined to see too much relevance in the fact that Elihu is speaking. Just because he is not God doesn't mean everything he says is suspect or incorrect.

But then you're arguing is from silence, as the Bible records many statements of individuals that are not necessarily true. If this is your top proof of solid dome cosmology, then there really isn't much to it. And, it appears that Elihu is not even speaking of a solid sky, but rather cloud coverage, which would resemble a cloudy mirror.

The bible's understanding of clouds really does make solid dome cosmology impossible.
 
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ChetSinger

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Well, it certainly appears there is a lot of flexibility to a translator here. The most common translation of 'shachaq' is "cloud". "Dust", "sky" and "heaven" are also used. My guess is that the KJV translators used "sky" because it is embedded in the phrase "spread out the [shachaq]" and that is reminiscent of many times where it is completed by 'shamayim'. The word translated as "hard" also has many possible meanings. Mostly it means "strong" or "mighty" and is often used of people in this sense. But it can also mean "hard" or "firm". Again the context "like a mirror of cast metal" probably influenced translators toward "hard" (though the KJV has "strong").
Still what does the sky have to be strong or mighty for? It is an adjective that makes sense if the thought behind it is that the sky is holding up the waters above the heavens. Any material would need a lot of strength for that.
Yes, bibles translate this in all kinds of different ways. For example, the NET translates it like this: "will you, with him, spread out the clouds, solid as a mirror of molten metal?".

Again, when trying to extract the meaning of this particular verse I think it's necessary to put it in its context, especially because it does have a context: God's power as seen through inclement weather. And Elihu's description of the sky in this particular verse actually does describe a particular kind of cloud cover I myself see every winter, that being the sky prior to a large snowstorm. So it's not the shamayim Elihu is talking about; it's the clouds that are in the shamayim. So I see this verse as having nothing to do with the nature of the shamayim, but the nature of the clouds when they're in that particular formation.

I am not inclined to see too much relevance in the fact that Elihu is speaking. Just because he is not God doesn't mean everything he says is suspect or incorrect.
In this particular investigation I think it's very relevant. I began this conversation by saying I was unaware of any scriptural passage where God himself teaches that the raqiya is solid. Obviously, if this passage's speaker is Elihu then this passage doesn't pass muster.

Then, too, I am not saying that the bible is making a claim that the sky is solid. Rather that biblical authors simply assumed this to be the case and so spoke as if it were--just as they assumed the other features of the cosmos mentioned in scripture: an earth set on foundations, a storehouse in the sky for snow and hail, and so on. Such assumptions are not a claim, because one does not even think about them. It is just a natural way of speaking at the time.
I'm fine with this. In fact, when I read the first sentence in your paragraph I wondered why we're even expending effort on this. :)
 
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