Does the Bible teach solid dome flat earth cosmology?

[Calminian]

Yes, occasionally some of them can, for a special reason (God' permission or God's help). Normally, I don't see why should supernatural be one of their character. We may want to revisit the definition of natural if we continued on this.

"should"? I'm not following. You're saying angels should be limited to physical laws because you think they should? Am I hearing right? I don't understand how that's an argument.

The question is, does the Bible portray them have having abilities beyond the physical limitations we have? My personal opinion of how God should have made that has no bearing on the reality.

 

[sculleywr]

Yes, occasionally some of them can, for a special reason (God' permission or God's help). Normally, I don't see why should supernatural be one of their character. We may want to revisit the definition of natural if we continued on this. For example, we may assign angel a maximum speed of movement (toward any "direction"), even some more powerful angels may move faster than other angels. Should we? I don't see why not. They are created beings too. But when you do that, then you will find a consequential problem ... TIME. Space-Time is the nature set up by God. There is no supernatural to it, except God. So, a remote heaven at a far far place in this universe actually violated the idea of supernatural.

Except that angels are noetic beings. They have no physical substance. They cannot be measured by man.

 

[Calminian]

Except that angels are noetic beings. They have no physical substance. They cannot be measured by man.

I basically agree, but might say they have a very different physical makeup. They do seem to have physicality, as they are shown to walk on the ground and even eat and drink and get their feet washed.

But yeah, they are clearly not physical like us. Thus, why would we expect the same physical limitations?

 

[juvenissun]

Except that angels are noetic beings. They have no physical substance. They cannot be measured by man.

We can't see them now. But they do have a body, just like we WILL have a new real body.

 

[juvenissun]

I basically agree, but might say they have a very different physical makeup. They do seem to have physicality, as they are shown to walk on the ground and even eat and drink and get their feet washed.

But yeah, they are clearly not physical like us. Thus, why would we expect the same physical limitations?

Only if they come to our world and have activities within our world. They will be limited by space-time just like we are in that case. Don't make it wrong, some of them may breath fire but we can not. And some of them may be able to fly but we can not. Because they are made that way and we are not. That is another issue.

 

[juvenissun]

"should"? I'm not following. You're saying angels should be limited to physical laws because you think they should? Am I hearing right? I don't understand how that's an argument.

The question is, does the Bible portray them have having abilities beyond the physical limitations we have? My personal opinion of how God should have made that has no bearing on the reality.

We will be like them. And we will still be limited by some rules set by God. Our future new body is natural, but not supernatural. That is the way it "should" be. Because otherwise, there will be problems.

 

[Calminian]

We will be like them. And we will still be limited by some rules set by God. Our future new body is natural, but not supernatural. That is the way it "should" be. Because otherwise, there will be problems.

What problems? You are saying you're going to scold God if He doesn't comply in making angels with the same exact limitation we have?

Only if they come to our world and have activities within our world. They will be limited by space-time just like we are in that case. ....

It would seem then, you have an issue with scripture. Scripture portrays them as not being like us. They have special powers and can defy the rules of science.

It's also sounds like you are a proponent of theo-science rather than theology. This is a movement in the church today that tries to put God in a scientific box. Instead of looking at God theo-logically, they look at Him theo-scientifically. It is in essence a conflation of science and logic, i.e. if something is unscientific it is illogical. This is of course the slippery slope that leads to compromised views.

 

[juvenissun]

What problems? You are saying you're going to scold God if He doesn't comply in making angels with the same exact limitation we have?

It would seem then, you have an issue with scripture. Scripture portrays them as not being like us. They have special powers and can defy the rules of science.

It's also sounds like you are a proponent of theo-science rather than theology. This is a movement in the church today that tries to put God in a scientific box. Instead of looking at God theo-logically, they look at Him theo-scientifically. It is in essence a conflation of science and logic, i.e. if something is unscientific it is illogical. This is of course the slippery slope that leads to compromised views.

It is scientific theology. Science is for human but not for any other animals. Use science to glory God. But not to use God to limit science.

The capability of angel should be limited. Otherwise they will make the same mistake as Satan did.

Satan can do all kind of things to Job and his family. But Satan still need to obey the space-time relationship to go back and forth between earth and heaven.

 

[Calminian]

...The capability of angel should be limited. Otherwise they will make the same mistake as Satan did. ...

So Satan fell because God didn't limit him. Thus, all angels need to be limited to the physical realm so they don't fall like Satan?

Just looking for clarification. Let me know if I have this right.

I've never seen anything in scripture suggesting this. Can you make a biblical case for it?

 

[juvenissun]

So Satan fell because God didn't limit him. Thus, all angels need to be limited to the physical realm so they don't fall like Satan?

Satan fell because he thought God did not limit him.

 

[SkyWriting]

I can't tell you how many old earthers cite this argument. Yet, I've never been able to get any of them to defend this position. They basically cite it and run for the hills. I had a guy on another forum who kept promising to defend it, but ended up admitting he couldn't. Paul of Eugene has taken this position recently here and I'm hoping he'll defend it.

Okay, Paul, let's hear your case. Where do you believe the Bible teaches these cosmologies when taken literally. I realize you don't take it literally, but if you did, explain where you would glean these teachings.

I would actually take the opposite stance that a literal rendering of the Bible would argue against these cosmologies in favor of an open expanse heaven and landmasses that are anything but flat. But you made the statement. Let's see if you're willing to back it up.

It is described as a dome, but not solid in many passages.

 

[Calminian]

It is described as a dome, but not solid in many passages.

Please show us where.

 

[SkyWriting]

Please show us where.

Ezekiel 1:26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man.

Bible Search: vault

Arch (24 Occurrences)

 

[southcountry]

Creation is spread out beneath the throne. From the other side, the writers seen it as a "sea of glass" or "great crystal" or "firmament".

It has four corners and the four spirits of God hold it apart.

 

[Calminian]

Ezekiel 1:26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man.

Bible Search: vault

Arch (24 Occurrences)

You are citing a translation but not making an argument. Vault there is just a translation of raqiya'. Switch the translation and you have an opposing argument.

Ezek. 1:26 And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, tin appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance.​

What I'm asking you to do is make a case from the Bible that raqiya' in Gen. 1 is referring to a dome of any kind. I can make the case easily that raqiya' is defined as heaven and that heaven is described in the Bible as an open expanse. Can you make a case from the Bible?

Keep in mind too, that the simple meaning of expanse does not mean heaven. Heaven is the specific expanse described in Gen. 1. That's the only expanse we're interested in.

 

[SkyWriting]

is referring to a dome of any kind.

If it says

Proverbs 8:27 When he made ready the heavens I was there: when he put an arch over the face of the deep:
"Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a solid arch stretching over the waters, parting the waters from the waters."

what do you have in mind?

 

[SkyWriting]

Creation is spread out beneath the throne. From the other side, the writers seen it as a "sea of glass" or "great crystal" or "firmament".

It has four corners and the four spirits of God hold it apart.

So it is arched, with 4 corners.

 

[southcountry]

So it is arched, with 4 corners.

Id say more pyramid shaped, translucent, being able to see to the bottom.

The four rivers( spirits of God) form the sides, the bottom is expanse, the sides are time. Time starts at the flaming sword, or where the rivers which issues from the throne parts into four. The four rivers are the beasts in Ezekiel which are the foundations of the firmament spread out in front of the throne.

 

[southcountry]

To add to the discussion, the "Earth" is any dry land in the "sea", or firmament. This would be any gathering of the elements. Stars, suns, planets, anything that forms in the expanse is "Earth".

They are also described as "mountains".

 

[SkyWriting]

Id say more pyramid shaped, translucent, being able to see to the bottom.

The four rivers( spirits of God) form the sides, the bottom is expanse, the sides are time. Time starts at the flaming sword, or where the rivers which issues from the throne parts into four. The four rivers are the beasts in Ezekiel which are the foundations of the firmament spread out in front of the throne.

It's more or less described as a soft dome.