Does the bible actually say anything about people who aren't born male or female? (Moved)

[John Hyperspace]

Yes I understand gnosticism including the modern effects of it. No, it is not classic gnosticism (either the Greek or the early christian versions) The lingering beliefs from that heresy is that the body is either just a shell for the spirit and soul (meaning that the body is not truly us), or the body is evil in and of itself. Neither are true at all.

Not sure of your point. I do know ha-satan means "the adversary."

I go with the Hebrew meanings.

I'm sorry, but were you accusing me of, Gnostic heresy of some kind? Or, accusing me of "lingering beliefs from that heresy"? If you could point out in my original post where I said "the body is not truly us"? Is that what Paul is saying when he teaches: Galatians 3:28 or is this what Jesus was teaching when he said: John 8:15 or John 7:24? If you're not aware of the Greek meaning of "devil/diabolos":

devil 1228 diábolos (from 1225 /diabállō, "to slander, accuse, defame") – properly, a slanderer; a false accuser; unjustly criticizing to malign and condemn.

Here are a couple of verses:

1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers <1228>
Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers <1228>

The point here is simply that we shouldn't be so quick to accuse others of things like heresy (or, anything for that matter), which is a very serious accusation. This certainly isn't of the Spirit of Christ in any way, shape or form. We should strive to be better than to do such things: Matthew 15:18

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I'm not a hermaphrodite. I'm intersex.

Okay. Biology isn't my prime subject, I'll take your word for it. I do stand corrected on the proper terminology.

There's romantic sexuality and sexual attraction.

I understand that. I only like women, but I've given up even casually pursuing them, even the ones I might have chased some time ago. My experience is different, of course; but I see too much change of serious complication.

I'm attracted to all genders. But I prefer guys in the romantic sense. Not saying I wouldn't try a relationship with a woman either though I just never have wanted to. And I actually feel with women it appears more lesbian than it does with guys being gay as I do look outwardly female currently. My sexual attraction is though equally bisexual. I'm not acting out in any sense towards anyone. I try to keep to myself. I'm only 17.

Sorry, but I don't have anything brilliant to say about much of this, other than celibacy is indeed the best choice for the foreseeable future. There's enough problems at 17 for anyone!

Also, despite if urges are correct or not, sinful or not, celibacy is a good hedge against real actual sin. Jesus did say desiring to commit a sin was tantamount to the sin itself, but it seems to me He was talking about 'would have except for' and not 'wanted to and passed up on the opportunity'.

But it's hard sometimes like thinking about marriage with someone without feeling guilty because of my predicament.

Not to mention finding a partner who would accept you as you are.

Well I was raised to believe homosexuality was wrong. And for me if I have a thought about having a family one day I feel so conflicted.

Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible in several places; no doubt about that. Having a family is encouraged. I have no idea how this is going to work out for you.

Yeah I agree GOD does know what HE is doing I just don't know how my parents can accept that but maybe in time they will HE can make anything happen/

The best idea I have to to check out your options with a doctor who specializes in this sort of thing. Probably some time with a psychiatrist as well to help curb some of the inner turmoil.

I strongly suggest you avoid any non-Christian doctor of either sort who will tell you to do what you like and forget about sin. That sort of thinking will just lead to deeper and more serious problems, physically, mentally and emotionally.

As strange as this might sound, I'd also suggest you avoid counseling with any Pastor or 'Christian counsellor' who thinks like your parents. You've got enough knowledge of sin and guilt to keep you on the straight and narrow.

I guess I'm saying 'avoid the extremes'. Keep praying about it. I will too.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Okay. Biology isn't my prime subject, I'll take your word for it. I do stand corrected on the proper terminology.

I understand that. I only like women, but I've given up even casually pursuing them, even the ones I might have chased some time ago. My experience is different, of course; but I see too much change of serious complication.

Sorry, but I don't have anything brilliant to say about much of this, other than celibacy is indeed the best choice for the foreseeable future. There's enough problems at 17 for anyone!

Also, despite if urges are correct or not, sinful or not, celibacy is a good hedge against real actual sin. Jesus did say desiring to commit a sin was tantamount to the sin itself, but it seems to me He was talking about 'would have except for' and not 'wanted to and passed up on the opportunity'.

Not to mention finding a partner who would accept you as you are.

Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible in several places; no doubt about that. Having a family is encouraged. I have no idea how this is going to work out for you.



The best idea I have to to check out your options with a doctor who specializes in this sort of thing. Probably some time with a psychiatrist as well to help curb some of the inner turmoil.

I strongly suggest you avoid any non-Christian doctor of either sort who will tell you to do what you like and forget about sin. That sort of thinking will just lead to deeper and more serious problems, physically, mentally and emotionally.

As strange as this might sound, I'd also suggest you avoid counseling with any Pastor or 'Christian counsellor' who thinks like your parents. You've got enough knowledge of sin and guilt to keep you on the straight and narrow.

I guess I'm saying 'avoid the extremes'. Keep praying about it. I will too.

Homosexual sex is what's condemned in the Bible, not attraction because they didn't know a lot about that back then.

As for your other points, I do agree that seeing a counselor to get advice could help, and celibacy is a good idea for the foreseeable future since the OP is still trying to figure themselves out with the confusing-seeming chromosome/gentilla/outward-appearance contrasts.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Homosexual sex is what's condemned in the Bible, not attraction because they didn't know a lot about that back then.

I agree. When Jesus talked about 'thinking' is the same as doing, He was talking about 'planning and plotting' not about the idea of "I would like to, but it's wrong, so I won't".

As for your other points, I do agree that seeing a counselor to get advice could help, and celibacy is a good idea for the foreseeable future since the OP is still trying to figure themselves out with the confusing-seeming chromosome/gentilla/outward-appearance contrasts.

That's two of us, then. Thanks.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I agree. When Jesus talked about 'thinking' is the same as doing, He was talking about 'planning and plotting' not about the idea of "I would like to, but it's wrong, so I won't".

That's two of us, then. Thanks.

Or the idea of "Hey, I legitimately love this person" because not all couples just think "I'm attracted to this person because I want to have sex with them". That's not how attraction works, and they didn't really have an understanding of the brain and how love and attraction work back then.

 

[Radagast]

I was born legally male. I have male genitals but I have a female figure.

Given that and your OP, I assume that you are talking about Klinefelter syndrome or 47,XXY (there is also a related XX/XXY mosaic condition, but it is extremely rare, with only a handful of cases ever having been recorded worldwide, and I don't think such a rare condition could be diagnosed on the basis of a simple saliva test).

People with 47,XXY are very definitely male (both genetically and physically), but have low testosterone levels, and sometimes develop a female body shape during puberty (with breasts and wider hips). For that reason, people with 47,XXY are generally given testosterone supplements. They sometimes seek breast-reduction surgery. Often (but not always) there is a single crease in the palm (like the hand on the left instead of the one on the right):

The condition does not affect sexual orientation (people with XXY may be gay, but are not more likely to be so than men in general). However, there may be feelings of sadness and depression. Testosterone supplements sometimes help with this. They also reduce the chance of getting osteoporosis. See also www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/klinefelter-syndrome

I pray that things will work out well for you in what seems to be a difficult situation. I would urge you to get good medical advice from a doctor who understands your condition (e.g. an endocrinologist), and good spiritual advice from a pastor.

 

[Radagast]

it's for the decisions I've made in the last year basically. That's what the issue is with them. Like if I'd gotten on hormones and all of that they'd have no problem with me at all. But that's why they won't accept me the way I really am.

In their defence, they may be genuinely concerned for you. You mention the possibility of marriage but that would be difficult without making some changes (like maybe testosterone treatment).

By the way (and without any endorsement), here is one man's story: www.47xxy.me

 

[Zoii]

I was two years ago diagnosed with a condition that would imply I am chromosomally both male and female. I am wondering if there's anything in the bible about it. I think in part it has made me feel as though I don't really know how to feel about my own sexuality/gender because in a sense genetically I am more female than male but socially supposed to be male. But I mean GOD made me so he made me with xx/xxy chromosomes so I mean there's no real indication what that means for me. I can't even tell what is wrong or right. And all my family are religious Christians they think it's sinful like to be me. But I mean it's how I was created idk. Does anyone know if the bible has anything to say about this particularly?

Well I think your very brave for being honest with us and I just hope your life brings you happiness. Im sure your genetics makes things really complicated so Im hoping that you are given empathy and understanding as you deal with it.

 

[xpower]

The Bible is not a rulebook and the Bible does not say anything about intersex people as the writers of the various books in the Bible did not know anything about biology or the development of human sex organs.

 

[Spiritlight]

Jackson16 if it makes you feel any better your not alone. I don't tell many people this but I think like a girl mostly and have tastes like one but am a guy too. It's really confusing and frustrating when most of society is so gender specific. It's challenging to publicly be who feel you you really are for fear of condemnation.

Hopefully our heavenly bodies are gender neutral.

I have wondered if the spirit part of us as humans has a gender too.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

... It's challenging to publicly be who feel you you really are for fear of condemnation.
Hopefully our heavenly bodies are gender neutral.
I have wondered if the spirit part of us as humans has a gender too.

It is challenging even more (for everyone) to give up and actually hate our life on earth
in
order to receive eternal life from Yeshua Messiah.
i.e. To NOT give in continually to the flesh and to the world and to sin that we all were born in,
and instead to turn to YHWH (God) in Yeshua Messiah , by faith,
and seek His Way, His Kingdom,
instead of 'enjoying' or holding to this world and all of its abominations, selfishnesses, sins, and wickednesses that abound. (not only the emotional and self-centered thoughts that are inherent in being a person; but everything in a person and that a person does).

In heaven, as it is written, there is no marriage nor giving in marriage.
In heaven everyone saved from sin and death will be as HE IS. (which includes perfectly without sin, without doubt, without fear, without any worry at all).

 

[Spiritlight]

It is challenging even more (for everyone) to give up and actually hate our life on earth
in
order to receive eternal life from Yeshua Messiah.
i.e. To NOT give in continually to the flesh and to the world and to sin that we all were born in,
and instead to turn to YHWH (God) in Yeshua Messiah , by faith,
and seek His Way, His Kingdom,
instead of 'enjoying' or holding to this world and all of its abominations, selfishnesses, sins, and wickednesses that abound. (not only the emotional and self-centered thoughts that are inherent in being a person; but everything in a person and that a person does). There is a trap in thinking you and the world are inherently evil

In heaven, as it is written, there is no marriage nor giving in marriage.
In heaven everyone saved from sin and death will be as HE IS. (which includes perfectly without sin, without doubt, without fear, without any worry at all).

Thanks for your reply.

There is a trap in thinking you and the world are inherently evil and not worthy of love as you are.

God said when he made the world he was happy with it even though he knew it would change

Jesus commanded us to love others and ourselves as we are.

Lol I have always struggled with the command to love myself because I know my shortcomings. I'm probably in good company there.

Mark 12

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

YHWH'S WORD says very clearly no one is worthy of HIS LOVE,
nor of SALVATION.
No one had anything good to offer YHWH,
so
YHWH HIMSELF provided the ONLY WAY to be SAVED thru Y'SHUA.

There is a trap in thinking you and the world are inherently evil and not worthy of love as you are.

 

[Dave-W]

It is challenging even more (for everyone) to give up and actually hate our life on earth in order to receive eternal life from Yeshua Messiah.

That is a corruption of what the text means. We are not supposed to hate our existence. To do so is to insult God the father.

In heaven, as it is written, there is no marriage nor giving in marriage.

Another corruption. It says no marrying, and no giving in marriage. (verbs, not nouns) That describes a NEW marriage. It says nothing about pre-existing marriages.

 

[xpower]

That is a corruption of what the text means. We are not supposed to hate our existence. To do so is to insult God the father.

Another corruption. It says no marrying, and no giving in marriage. (verbs, not nouns) That describes a NEW marriage. It says nothing about pre-existing marriages.

Can you explain what you mean about these corruptions?

 

[Dave-W]

Hebrew and Aramaic (and I would assume Arabic) frequently use hyperbole to explain something and it MUST be taken as relative, not absolute. We in the west are used to thinking of things in isolation and in absolutes rather than in relationship.

So when the Lord says:

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

He is NOT saying to actually hate father or mother or himself. Indeed, if that were the case the Lord would be preaching against the 10 commandments where it says to honor father and mother. As a Jew "born under the law," (Gal 4.4) to teach against the Law in any way would have been sin and would have invalidated Him as a sacrifice for our own sins.

So clearly, "hate" must be understood to mean that we hate it ONLY as it compares to our LOVE for HIM. IOW, while we love parents and self, that love pales in comparison to loving God.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Another corruption. It says no marrying, and no giving in marriage. (verbs, not nouns) That describes a NEW marriage. It says nothing about pre-existing marriages.

That understanding or interpretation rather undercuts what Jesus was telling the Saducees, doesn't it?

They asked Jesus "Whose wife will she be?" Jesus gave the response you claim is corrupted. So Jesus never answered the question. Is that right?

Verse 34 then says Jesus silenced the Saducees; in other words, they were so out-argued they just shut up. Which is odd if Jesus didn't answer their question and objection.

Sorry, Dave; your interpretation doesn't work.

 

[Paidiske]

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[Paidiske]

On topic from me, Jackson, I don't believe the Bible does say anything about your specific condition. I think, though, that it's okay to take some time to figure it out; you're seventeen and the mix of emotions about wanting a marriage one day, but not being ready for it, are certainly not unique to people who are intersexed!

I don't see where you've said what denomination or tradition of Christianity you've been raised in; it might be helpful to you if you can find some resources in your tradition which look at the theology of the human person (sometimes called theological anthropology) as a resource to your further thinking and reflection. And I agree with earlier posters who recommended good medical, psychological and pastoral support, too!