Does the bible actually say anything about people who aren't born male or female? (Moved)

[Celestial Warrior]

I was two years ago diagnosed with a condition that would imply I am chromosomally both male and female. I am wondering if there's anything in the bible about it. I think in part it has made me feel as though I don't really know how to feel about my own sexuality/gender because in a sense genetically I am more female than male but socially supposed to be male. But I mean GOD made me so he made me with xx/xxy chromosomes so I mean there's no real indication what that means for me. I can't even tell what is wrong or right. And all my family are religious Christians they think it's sinful like to be me. But I mean it's how I was created idk. Does anyone know if the bible has anything to say about this particularly?

YES, actually there is something in the Bible regarding your condition, You would be called a Eunich:
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

According to our Lord, those who are born this way are to remain unmarried and celebate devoting your entire life to the Lord and our Heavenly Father.

The following will be a little long, but their is an ANCIENT WRITING on the subject by Plato. Apparently there originally was 3 sexes of human being, please read and find comfort in these words. You are not abnormal and the Lord must really want you to devote your life to him, otherwise you would not have been chosen to be born this way.

Please read even though this is long and please excuse the idolatry references, focus only on the subject matter pertaining to your issue:

Aristophanes's Speech from Plato's Symposium:
In the first place, let me treat of the nature of man and what has happened to it. The original human nature was not like the present, but different. The sexes were not two as they are now, but originally three in number; there was man, woman, and the union of the two, of which the name survives but nothing else. Once it was a distinct kind, with a bodily shape and a name of its own, constituted by the union of the male and the female: but now only the word 'androgynous' is preserved, and that as a term of reproach.

In the second place, the primeval man was round, his back and sides forming a circle; and he had four hands and the same number of feet, one head with two faces, looking opposite ways, set on a round neck and precisely alike; also four ears, two privy members, and the remainder to correspond. He could walk upright as men now do, backwards or forwards as he pleased, and he could also roll over and over at a great pace, turning on his four hands and four feet, eight in all, like tumblers going over and over with their legs in the air; this was when he wanted to run fast.

Now the sexes were three, and such as I have described them; because the sun, moon, and earth are three; and the man was originally the child of the sun, the woman of the earth, and the man-woman of the moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round because they resembled their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they made an attack upon the gods; of them is told the tale of Otys and Ephialtes who, as Homer says, attempted to scale heaven, and would have laid hands upon the gods

http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/sym.htm

 

[John Hyperspace]

Sorry - but that is gnostic heresy.

How so? Are you sure you're understanding the sect of gnosticism of which you're accusing others of proposing? Accusations against others should never be taken so lightly as to throw them out without even having knowledge of that which is being accused. You do know that the word "devil" or "diabolos" means "false accuser"?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I was born legally male. I have male genitals but I have a female figure.

That does sound rather confusing, and horrible in it's own way. I think the word for this condition is 'hermaphrodite'; which is probably politically incorrect because it actually means something. Please understand, this is not meant to sound degrading or judgmental, just to get a grip on what is going on.

yeah I pray about it I've prayed about it since this all started out.

That sounds reasonable. In fact, very appropriate.

Like well on top of all this I am also bisexual romantically mainly attracted to men.

I balk at the wording here. Being 'bisexual' means sexually attracted to both sexes. But you only mention men. That makes it sound like - and I could be mistaken - you tend to focus on men.

My parents don't like it because they think this makes me gay basically and therefore evil.

Actually, that is a relief to my mind. I was thinking your parents thought you were evil because of your physical condition; but it is because they think - rightly or wrongly - you are acting out (what seems to be) homosexually.

But I mean I just want someone like anyone else I can't be alone for the rest of my life. I didn't do anything to cause loneliness on myself forever.

Most everyone 'wants to be like every one else' and very few want to 'be alone for the rest of ... life'. Nor do I, for that matter.

However, it sounds as if your condition is similar - not exactly the same, but similar - to one who is born blind, or missing a limb or somehow 'different'. None of them did anything to cause their own 'difference' and they - I'm sure - would rather be 'normal' (whatever that means). But they can't, either.

No. I do not know exactly why. I do, however, know God knows what He's doing. Even if I don't - which is quite often, really.

This part really puzzles me:

And then sometimes I hav innocent thoughts that I'm not sure if they're evil or not.

How can thoughts be innocent and possibly evil at the same time?

And just for the record, I have thoughts of evil things at time which I do not do. Even if I might do them if I were able or thought I could get away with it. I have to turn those impulses over to God. I can't handle them in the sense of 'controlling' them.

This also bothers me:

And I don't really know what's right or wrong.

I think I see what you mean; your condition doesn't simply designate one gender for your attention. Still, please do not allow that conflict or complication to allow you license to do anything you please in the matter. I'm pretty sure God will not agree.

I always thought eunuch meant castrated though? Or does it mean low T? I'm the latter not the first.

Strictly speaking you are correct about eunuchs and castration. There are also men and women who are barren and have no ability to reproduce.

However, I think one can stretch the concept contained to include all those with 'abnormalities' - I'm trying to be clinical and non-offensive about such things. Humans, even Christians, have to put up with all sorts of personal problems.

 

[Jackson16]

Meaning you started having periods?

Not sure what you mean by that.

Anyway - Jackson you are EXACTLY the kind of person I have been wondering about and praying for for about a decade. I have posted numerous threads on several different christian websites and discussion groups and no one wants to even discuss the issue.

Since you are here, it is not something that can be ignored any more. The church as a whole must get off its duff and do some serious bible study and prayer on this issue.

No I don't have a period. I have boobs I actually have very high prolactin level at 24.5... Which is a tad high I'm getting a re-do. I have very large boobs. And I don't want to mutilate my body. I also have a voice that's not very heavy it's about 200 hz. And I have an oval face shape. So I easily look female actually. But I also have male genitalia. I had basically no signs of a male puberty and I have no interest in going into one. So like I like the way I am as it is. I don't really identify as female as in I don't want to mutilate myself to become anymore female than I am and I don't want to do anything to become male either.


Thanks I hate being openly different about this it's just a family issue and especially this thanksgiving with having to be with the family and all. I am not open at the church I go to or anything. Because I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable.

 

[Jackson16]

By this do you mean some cells are xx (female) and others are xxy (nuclear non-disjunction on the part of your dad)? If so it would indicate that you might be a chimera, the fusing of 2 separate concepti - twins. And one of them got absorbed early on by the other. If so - you may actually be 2 different people.

yeah I am 70% xx in my saliva. I actually took a dna test for ethnicity purposes way back and that was my result. Which prompted a visit to the doctor. I don't like to see it that way though. I'm one person with one mind.

 

[Jackson16]

Dave, maybe a form of Klinefelter Syndrome.
As you know chimera have two sets of DNA. But I think this is different because it is an abnormal combination of chromosomes.

well it's both. Because my chromosomal pattern is xxy which is why I was born male looking.

 

[Jackson16]

Jackson - I would question this of your parents. Sin is something that in the blble we are commanded to "repent" from; which means to turn away from and walk the other way.

How would they suggest you do that? Repent of a chromosome anomaly?

it's for the decisions I've made in the last year basically. That's what the issue is with them. Like if I'd gotten on hormones and all of that they'd have no problem with me at all. But that's why they won't accept me the way I really am. Because I don't want anything that will highly change me in any sense either way.

 

[Jackson16]

Based on the statement that this poster has a female figure, I'd guess that puberty led to development along female typical lines - hips, breasts and all such secondary sexual characteristics.

yeah that's what I was reffering to. I also don't have a lower voice and or any facial hair etc...

 

[Jackson16]

I'm not a hermaphrodite. I'm intersex. I don't have two sets of male and female reproductive part. It's kind of like a woman with cais she isn't a hermaphrodite she has female outer genitalia and male gonads. But a female phenotype. I'm basically the same way only I have male genitalia. But I have a female phenotype.



There's romantic sexuality and sexual attraction. I'm attracted to all genders. But I prefer guys in the romantic sense. Not saying I wouldn't try a relationship with a woman either though I just never have wanted to. And I actually feel with women it appears more lesbian than it does with guys being gay as I do look outwardly female currently. My sexual attraction is though equally bisexual. I'm not acting out in any sense towards anyone. I try to keep to myself. I'm only 17. But it's hard sometimes like thinking about marriage with someone without feeling guilty because of my predicament.

That does sound rather confusing, and horrible in it's own way. I think the word for this condition is 'hermaphrodite'; which is probably politically incorrect because it actually means something. Please understand, this is not meant to sound degrading or judgmental, just to get a grip on what is going on.

That sounds reasonable. In fact, very appropriate.

I balk at the wording here. Being 'bisexual' means sexually attracted to both sexes. But you only mention men. That makes it sound like - and I could be mistaken - you tend to focus on men.

Actually, that is a relief to my mind. I was thinking your parents thought you were evil because of your physical condition; but it is because they think - rightly or wrongly - you are acting out (what seems to be) homosexually.

Most everyone 'wants to be like every one else' and very few want to 'be alone for the rest of ... life'. Nor do I, for that matter.

However, it sounds as if your condition is similar - not exactly the same, but similar - to one who is born blind, or missing a limb or somehow 'different'. None of them did anything to cause their own 'difference' and they - I'm sure - would rather be 'normal' (whatever that means). But they can't, either.

No. I do not know exactly why. I do, however, know God knows what He's doing. Even if I don't - which is quite often, really.

This part really puzzles me:How can thoughts be innocent and possibly evil at the same time?

And just for the record, I have thoughts of evil things at time which I do not do. Even if I might do them if I were able or thought I could get away with it. I have to turn those impulses over to God. I can't handle them in the sense of 'controlling' them.

This also bothers me: I think I see what you mean; your condition doesn't simply designate one gender for your attention. Still, please do not allow that conflict or complication to allow you license to do anything you please in the matter. I'm pretty sure God will not agree.

Strictly speaking you are correct about eunuchs and castration. There are also men and women who are barren and have no ability to reproduce.

However, I think one can stretch the concept contained to include all those with 'abnormalities' - I'm trying to be clinical and non-offensive about such things. Humans, even Christians, have to put up with all sorts of personal problems.

Well I was raised to believe homosexuality was wrong. And for me if I have a thought about having a family one day I feel so conflicted.


Yeah I agree GOD does know what HE is doing I just don't know how my parents can accept that but maybe in time they will HE can make anything happen/

 

[Armoured]

I was two years ago diagnosed with a condition that would imply I am chromosomally both male and female. I am wondering if there's anything in the bible about it. I think in part it has made me feel as though I don't really know how to feel about my own sexuality/gender because in a sense genetically I am more female than male but socially supposed to be male. But I mean GOD made me so he made me with xx/xxy chromosomes so I mean there's no real indication what that means for me. I can't even tell what is wrong or right. And all my family are religious Christians they think it's sinful like to be me. But I mean it's how I was created idk. Does anyone know if the bible has anything to say about this particularly?

It's not sinful to be like you.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I'm not a hermaphrodite. I'm intersex. I don't have two sets of male and female reproductive part. It's kind of like a woman with cais she isn't a hermaphrodite she has female outer genitalia and male gonads. But a female phenotype. I'm basically the same way only I have male genitalia. But I have a female phenotype.



There's romantic sexuality and sexual attraction. I'm attracted to all genders. But I prefer guys in the romantic sense. Not saying I wouldn't try a relationship with a woman either though I just never have wanted to. And I actually feel with women it appears more lesbian than it does with guys being gay as I do look outwardly female currently. My sexual attraction is though equally bisexual. I'm not acting out in any sense towards anyone. I try to keep to myself. I'm only 17. But it's hard sometimes like thinking about marriage with someone without feeling guilty because of my predicament.







Well I was raised to believe homosexuality was wrong. And for me if I have a thought about having a family one day I feel so conflicted.


Yeah I agree GOD does know what HE is doing I just don't know how my parents can accept that but maybe in time they will HE can make anything happen/

Out of curiosity, Jackson, is your name in real life a male or female name, and what pronouns do you go by? I'm guessing male given you call yourself Jackson here and you have male genetillia, but I don't want to automatically make assumptions I'm curious since you're intersex and have male organs but otherwise appear female so some people you know might refer to you as such.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I know my intersex ex/fiancee was a woman. Or at least what I mean thats what she chose. Her claim is at both the doctor chooses the sex of an intersex based on what there is more of. In her case the doctor wanted her to be a girl, but her father hated she was intersex and told the doctor to chose male just to make her suffer in life. Don't know if thats true or not but despite having some male looks, she always lived as a woman and was trying to get some surgeries to look less masculine.

[Staff edit] And honestly I am not God, so I don't really know what his position is on intersex. For all I know maybe he wants them to be celibate.

 

[Dave-W]

How so? Are you sure you're understanding the sect of gnosticism of which you're accusing others of proposing? Accusations against others should never be taken so lightly as to throw them out without even having knowledge of that which is being accused.

Yes I understand gnosticism including the modern effects of it. No, it is not classic gnosticism (either the Greek or the early christian versions) The lingering beliefs from that heresy is that the body is either just a shell for the spirit and soul (meaning that the body is not truly us), or the body is evil in and of itself. Neither are true at all.

You do know that the word "devil" or "diabolos" means "false accuser"?

Not sure of your point. I do know ha-satan means "the adversary."

I go with the Hebrew meanings.

 

[Dave-W]

it's for the decisions I've made in the last year basically. That's what the issue is with them. Like if I'd gotten on hormones and all of that they'd have no problem with me at all.

So, to them you are sinning by not using a technology, not available even when they were young; let alone back during bible times?

Because I don't want anything that will highly change me in any sense either way.

I get that and I think it is entirely appropriate.

 

[JoeP222w]

To the OP: No, because there is no such category. There is either male or female, no other gender, no swapping between genders.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

 

[Armoured]

To the OP: No, because there is no such category. There is either male or female, no other gender, no swapping between genders.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

I suppose you're the sort of person who looks at a grasshopper and declares it has 4 legs, "because the Bible says so", right?

Did you actually read the OP's post? OP is intersex. That's not matter of opinion, it's a medical and biological fact.

 

[JoeP222w]

I suppose you're the sort of person who looks at a grasshopper and declares it has 4 legs, "because the Bible says so", right?

Only if I wanted to misread, twist and decontextualize the text you are referring to.

Medicine has been wrong on many things in the past. God's word never fails.

 

[Armoured]

Only if I wanted to misread, twist and decontextualize the text you are referring to.

Medicine has been wrong on many things in the past. God's word never fails.

It does when you apply an uber-literalist meaning to the allegorical and metaphorical bits.

Can you give a single example of a time that medicine has been wrong about something that the Bible has been correct about?

 

[CrystalDragon]

Only if I wanted to misread, twist and decontextualize the text you are referring to.

Medicine has been wrong on many things in the past. God's word never fails.

By your post it seems clear that you didn't even read the post and don't know what "intersex" means. Intersex means that someone has the parts of both genders—some times the organs of one and the chromosomes of the other which cause them to look more one than the other, or even the organs of both.

 

[Greg J.]

... I am wondering if there's anything in the bible about it. ... Does anyone know if the bible has anything to say about this particularly?

Yes, IMO the passage which should be the foundation of your moral exploration should be this one:

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26-28, 1984 NIV)

... I can't even tell what is wrong or right.

I know what you are saying, but if you are studying Scripture, seeking to know the living Jesus better, and being obedient as best you can, then you can do no better. Don't judge yourself.

Read 1 Corinthians 3:18-4:5. Here is an excerpt:

I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (bold mine, 1 Corinthians 4:3-5, 1984 NIV)

God sees your heart (who you really are/your motives/etc.), and who you are in your heart is what God judges. Examine your heart. Presumably if you are conflicted about this, you are trying to live to please God. If so, you're in an excellent place.

If you are trying to evaluate yourself to understand how God sees you, then stop looking at yourself and start looking at God's nature.

And all my family are religious Christians they think it's sinful like to be me.

If you are trying to understand your relationship with God through any lens of modern society, you will be misled. Receive the opinions of humans for what they are: attempts to understand but never quite succeeding.

As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother’s womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things. (Ecclesiastes 11:5, 1984 NIV)

It sounds like your family has failed to grasp that all humans have a sinful nature (Matthew 7:5 comes to mind).

Seek understanding by the Holy Spirit—through prayer, studying Scripture, and obedience to God.