Does God Try His Very Best to Save Every Single Person?

[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Jesus saves all who respond to his grace. We choose whether or not to respond.

Jesus is speaking to His church in Revelation 3. This is not about unbelievers coming to faith. It's about Christians who have become lukewarm. Context, context, context.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”​

 

[Thursday]

Jesus is speaking to His church in Revelation 3. This is not about unbelievers coming to faith.

That's quite a stretch!! Of course it is about unbelievers. He stands at the door and knocks so that we will let him in. Once we let him in he is not outside.

Calvinists must do some incredible gymnastics to fit scripture into their dogma.

Jesus is drawing all men to himself.

John 12
32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Jesus saves all who respond to his grace. We choose whether or not to respond.

Jesus was speaking to one if His churches, not those ignorant of His salvation.
You just can not make a proper comparison using that passage of those in the church to those of the world.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus is speaking to His church in Revelation 3. This is not about unbelievers coming to faith. It's about Christians who have become lukewarm. Context, context, context.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”​

Amen Brian, yes.

v19 -20 shows that truth here that Jesus is talking of those in His church about fellowshipping with Himself.

Discipline is something every child of God goes through in the'bringing many sons into the kingdom of God'
v13 specifically tells us God gives the children of God to Christ as His own brethren.
That is something we can be real joyful of, God working in us to bring us to Himself, which He is 100% successful in accomplishing.
Why people reject that ordained election calling of God to belong to Him I just wonder where their heart is. More inline with the thinking of the world is my guess.

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

 

[Thursday]

Jesus was speaking to one if His churches, not those ignorant of His salvation.
You just can not make a proper comparison using that passage of those in the church to those of the world.

It applies to the world, as we read many times in scripture.

Accept the truth and beauty of the gospel:

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[sdowney717]

It applies to the world, as we read many times in scripture.

Accept the truth and beauty of the gospel:

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

The last one most definitely I hope all could be in agreement is only for those IN Christ.
As all men are beholding to the nature of Adam after the flesh, so they are in Adam after the flesh and those of the flesh die.
Likewise all those 'in Christ' are after the nature of Christ, that is having the eternal life or the nature of Christ.
For your life is hid with Christ in God.

Colossians 3:1-4 English Standard Version (ESV)
Put On the New Self

1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Amen Brian, yes.

v19 -20 shows that truth here that Jesus is talking of those in His church about fellowshipping with Himself.

Rev 3 is one of many abused scriptures which gets ripped out of context and misunderstood.

 

[Thursday]

The last one most definitely I hope all could be in agreement is only for those IN Christ.

Why, did Adam's sin only impact some men?

 

[sdowney717]

Why, did Adam's sin only impact some men?

2 Cor 5
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

This scripture is written to and for born again Christians, when it says 'we regard no one according to the flesh', that is no Christians according to the flesh.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

 

[Greg J.]

For those still interested in the question in the original post,

Wow, this is a weird discussion. If God did nothing and everyone were going to hell, God would still have done nothing wrong. The reason we are/were condemned is because of our rebellion against our creator God who has the authority to tell us how to behave. The part that is hard for us to accept is that other people's sins have affected us greatly. (Adam's sin changed his nature. He was no longer capable of having sin-free children.)

Fortunately for us, God loved us enough to want to save us. So he sent his son to die for us. In this act, God did everything needed for everyone to be saved. Wow. Now everyone that accepts his gift—which requires accepting God as GOD—has their offenses wiped away. God did yet another thing for us: he commanded that we should live as Jesus did, revealing the kingdom in deed and word to others, promising to give us whatever we need in that effort.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. (Matthew 28:19-20, 1984 NIV)

The question is not, is God doing everything he can, but: are we doing everything we can? And if we are not, should the consequences be the same as if we were?

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19, 1984 NIV)

"Unfortunately" other people's bad choices have affected us. However, if you sin, you are demonstrating your agreement that their sin was "OK." Since you aren't in control of anyone but yourself, the real question is, what are you doing to not sin and help other people know about the gift of life that God made available to them.

I should have put this in my earlier post (but didn't recall it at the time):

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:18-20, 1984 NIV)

 

[South Bound]

Is God actively trying to save every man, woman and child?

No, you're thinking of Flash Gordon. The general call is to all people. The effectual calling is only to the elect.
Besides, if He was, that would either mean that God is a universalist, which we know isn't true, or that He fails to save those He tries to save, which we know isn't true.

Is His effort completely equal in each case?

No.

 

[bling]

Wow, this is a weird discussion. If God did nothing and everyone were going to hell, God would still have done nothing wrong. The reason we are/were condemned is because of our rebellion against our creator God who has the authority to tell us how to behave. The part that is hard for us to accept is that other people's sins have affected us greatly. (Adam's sin changed his nature. He was no longer capable of having sin-free children.)

Would it be “wrong” for God to lie?

If God presents Himself as being the epitome of Love and having Love beyond our wildest imagination, then can He show lack of concern for beings He created?

You were disobedient to your parents and they still tried to work with you, so is their love greater than God’s Love?

Christ was just like God while He was here on earth, so do you see examples of Christ being unconcerned about any people?

Fortunately for us, God loved us enough to want to save us. So he sent his son to die for us. In this act, God did everything needed for everyone to be saved. Wow. Now everyone that accepts his gift—which requires accepting God as GOD—has their offenses wiped away. God did yet another thing for us: he commanded that we should live as Jesus did, revealing the kingdom in deed and word to others, promising to give us whatever we need in that effort.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. (Matthew 28:19-20, 1984 NIV)

The question is not, is God doing everything he can, but: are we doing everything we can? And if we are not, should the consequences be the same as if we were?

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19, 1984 NIV)

"Unfortunately" other people's bad choices have affected us. However, if you sin, you are demonstrating your agreement that their sin was "OK." Since you aren't in control of anyone but yourself, the real question is, what are you doing to not sin and help other people know about the gift of life that God made available to them.

What choices other people have made affect us as far as our going to heaven in other words: Is our going to heaven between us and God/Christ or are others involved?

Is “not sinning” our objective since all have sinned or do we have a bigger objective?

 

[South Bound]

Would it be “wrong” for God to lie?

If God presents Himself as being the epitome of Love and having Love beyond our wildest imagination, then can He show lack of concern for beings He created?

Who says He's unconcerned? Even the unlect receive the blessings of God.

You were disobedient to your parents and they still tried to work with you, so is their love greater than God’s Love?

A couple of problems with this.

The first is that the unregenerate are not God's children, so you're committing a pretty basic category fallacy.

The second is that we're not talking about love, but about justice. God's love is higher and more perfect than any human being's. However, so is His Holiness, Righteous, and Justice.

The Bible gives us rules for parenting, including the authority of parents and how parents are to teach and discipline their children.

But our discipline is to be corrective discipline, not punishment. God punishes sin, not human parents. So, again, category fallacy.

Christ was just like God while He was here on earth

Actually, Christ was (and is) God while He was here on Earth.

so do you see examples of Christ being unconcerned about any people?

Again, who says God is unconcerned? Even when Christ turned people away, He still provided them the same common graces as He did everyone else.

 

[Greg J.]

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1984 NIV)

The perfect definition of love is God himself, which we understand as best we can primarily through Scripture. God as revealed through the Bible as a whole will be the best definition of love we can get for a long time.

What we really want is expressed through our actions, not what we might say or what might feel right to us. If someone doesn't think that God is loving everyone on earth as much as we want, then their definition of love still needs work. He isn't loving everyone on earth as much as they need, but that's because we don't want him to. If you really want him to love you more, then you will express that by your actions toward others. If you really want everyone else in the world to love more, then your actions will show that (which include being an example for others).

Our actions have very real and serious consequences. If you aren't up to blaming the people currently alive for the misery in the world, then blame the billions of people committing sin who used to be alive and left their spiritual legacy to us (most easily seen by looking at the world's fallen cultures). But don't forget that when a person sins today, he or she is showing through his action that he agrees that it was OK they sinned.

Spiritual deception/blindness is enormously powerful and no one will be completely rid of it in this life. It is typically accepted to be an inability to understand Truth, because Paul says so explicitly in 1 Corinthians 2:14. However, it also includes our feelings, how we interpret what we see and other perceptions, and whether a logical chain of thought rings true or not. Like our understanding of the Truth, they are also parts of us that God sanctifies through the years by living a holy, obedient life in Christ.

 

[nobdysfool]

Re: the OP: Do, or do not! There is no try....

Yoda

 

[bling]

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1984 NIV)

The perfect definition of love is God himself, which we understand as best we can primarily through Scripture. God as revealed through the Bible as a whole will be the best definition of love we can get for a long time.

There is more than just scripture reveling God’s Love. One of the objectives Christ had while here on earth was to show the Love of the father, so everything Christ did and said defines God’s Love. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us, also.

What we really want is expressed through our actions, not what we might say or what might feel right to us. If someone doesn't think that God is loving everyone on earth as much as we want, then their definition of love still needs work. He isn't loving everyone on earth as much as they need, but that's because we don't want him to. If you really want him to love you more, then you will express that by your actions toward others. If you really want everyone else in the world to love more, then your actions will show that (which include being an example for others)..

You say: “He isn't loving everyone on earth as much as they need…” I would not agree with that since God is loving everyone fully, but we are not accepting His Love as pure charity, so it is our fault.

 

[bling]

Who says He's unconcerned? Even the unlect receive the blessings of God..

What “blessing” was there for the rich man in story of “the rich man and Lazarus” to end up in hell?

Would it be better to have never existed than to go to hell?

A couple of problems with this.

The first is that the unregenerate are not God's children, so you're committing a pretty basic category fallacy..

Were Adam and Eve God’s children?

If Adam and Eve were not God’s children, then whose children were they and who created them?

Did God create these “ingenerated” beings?

Was satan prior to his rebellion a child of God?

Is God responsible for the creation of all humans and in that respect their Father?

“All souls [people] are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4).

Paul in Athens talking to a group of non-Christians said the following:

Acts 17: 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ 29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

Did Paul mislead the Athenians?

The second is that we're not talking about love, but about justice. God's love is higher and more perfect than any human being's. However, so is His Holiness, Righteous, and Justice..

There is no problem reconciling perfect Love and perfect justice/fairness, unless you try to reconcile injustice with Love.

The Bible gives us rules for parenting, including the authority of parents and how parents are to teach and discipline their children.

But our discipline is to be corrective discipline, not punishment. God punishes sin, not human parents. So, again, category fallacy.


.

You are very much right to say: “Earthly parents should only discipline their children and never punish them (understanding the same Greek and Hebrew words translated into the English as punish also could be translated discipline, teach, instruct and train)”. Parents do have an obligation to rescue their children from death if at all possible, but this is not true of God, since death is not bad in and of itself.

There is no way to “punish” some intangible like “sin”, but humans can be punished. It is not our “job” to punish a child of God, but God might have to punish one of His children for the sake of His other children, but only if that child has been given the opportunities needed to repent, but has repeated refused to the point of never repenting (only God would know this). When a child of God reaches the point of never willingly fulfilling his objective, that child takes on the lessor objective of helping other children fulfill their objective by being punished if need be.

 

[Greg J.]

There is more than just scripture reveling God’s Love. One of the objectives Christ had while here on earth was to show the Love of the father, so everything Christ did and said defines God’s Love. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us, also.

We know what Christ did to show the love of the Father through Scripture. To convey truths about this online we can cite passages of the Bible. We definitely need the Holy Spirit to help us, but what he does for me is not something I can cite online, which is why I didn't mention it.

You say: “He isn't loving everyone on earth as much as they need…” I would not agree with that since God is loving everyone fully, but we are not accepting His Love as pure charity, so it is our fault.

God is definitely loving everyone fully. I should have said, we are not experiencing the love we need (because we are not doing what he said to receive it). I never meant to imply God wasn't giving 100% of his love. Even God's punishments have love at their root.

 

[Thursday]

2 Cor 5
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

This scripture is written to and for born again Christians, when it says 'we regard no one according to the flesh', that is no Christians according to the flesh.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Filibuster and don't answer. That's your usual method it seems.

My question was, did Adam's sin impact all men, or just some men?

 

[tickingclocker]

• Is God actively trying to save every man, woman and child?
• Is His effort completely equal in each case?

Please answer one or both questions, and use biblical backing as much as possible.

God's love clearly shows that He is actively trying to save everyone. Jesus Christ died for all the people of the world, not just for those who accept Him. He died knowing that not all would accept his sacrifice either. Yet He still went to the Cross, knowing that. The offer is still there for the taking. (Unless you believe only in predestination, that is.) God loves everyone equally. Doesn't mean they love Him the same. We know they don't.

John 3:16, 17. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life, for God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him.


I went through a very dark period of accusing God of not caring enough for others than He did me and other Christians. He saved me. He saved them. Why not all these others who didn't know any better? Why did so many have to suffer for one soul? That He would allow a car crash to happen, where an entire family died horribly except one, only to have that sole survivor accept Jesus Christ after losing everyone they loved? Was it worth the cost? He claims in Proverbs 21:1 that He can move king's hearts like He can rivers, so why not move their hearts and save the entire family and that person? We know He can.

Proverbs 21:1. The king's heart in the hands of the Lord is like the water streams, and by Him it is turned in any direction at His pleasure.

Guess I will have to wait for heaven for that answer. Because He's not talking.

Proverbs 21:2. Every way of a man seems right to himself, but the Lord is the tester of hearts.