Does God Honor Man's "Free Will"?

[FireDragon76]

Not from what I have read. That is where the definition of "TULIP" came from, from those followers of Arminius who had issues with these 5 major points. From all I have read, they were against the first 4, and undecided about the 5th.

Traditionally all Protestants except the Anabaptists could affirm the "T" in TULIP. So could Lutherans. We may not use the exact same definitions but we all agree on the essence. God chooses us before we even know we are sinners. We just disagree on how God does the choosing.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not from what I have read. That is where the definition of "TULIP" came from, from those followers of Arminius who had issues with these 5 major points. From all I have read, they were against the first 4, and undecided about the 5th.

According to Roger Olson, who is an Arminian and expert on Jacobus Arminius' theology, Arminians affirm total depravity more or less identically to other Reformed Christians. It's not a point of difference. I also know for a fact Methodists affirm it is as well (I was raised Methodist).

Charles Grandison Finney was the first prominent evangelical to deny total depravity. He had a quasi-Pelagian belief in human free will and grace, influenced by American individualism and pragmatism, that salvation was simply a matter of choosing to follow Christ out of ones natural free will.

 

[DingDing]

...
We ... disagree on how God does the choosing.

More true than you know.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[EmSw]

Catholics, like Calvinists, believe in original sin and human depravity or concupiscence.

I am not a catholic, I go to a Lutheran church. I'm a mere Christian. Confessionally I am more or less Orthodox, but I am not formally in communion with that church. Lutherans are neither Calvinist nor Arminian. The issues of free will and predestination are not primary themes in Lutheran theology.

I was raised in the Lutheran church, Missouri Synod. You are correct, free will and predestination are not concerns of Lutheran theology. And you are also correct in that we are neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

 

[EmSw]

And the church is still suffering from the harm he caused her.

How are you suffering from that harm? I'm certainly not suffering from that so-called harm.

I noticed you didn't respond to hoping God chose you. That's the only rope to which you have to cling, whether you deny it or not. You have the faintest idea whether God called you to be a genuine Christian or a false prophet.

 

[FireDragon76]

CF is full of folks that have a sensualist, moralistic approach to Christian faith that is exactly in keeping with Finney's preaching. Religion-as-entertainment is the woof-and-waft of popular religion in America. Couple that with an exaggerated pietism, and you have a superficial approach to the Christian faith that is a mile wide and an inch deep. True repentance is cheapened.

I'm not a theological conservative by any means, but I can see the problematic nature of focusing your Christian life on some decision you made years ago. Because that's not the Gospel. Whether I am "right with God", or made a "decision for Christ", or my favorite, a "born again believer", does not have a bearing on my salvation at all. Someone who actually has the assurance of faith has their life hidden with Christ in God, they don't need to focus on those superficial externalities, indeed, they would see them as foolishness, and they most certainly would not go around judging other people based on those experiences.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[Radrook]

If God truly honored man's free will, why didn't He just leave Adam and Eve to their choice of death and disobedience?

Well, he didn't get in their way when they chose death and disobedience. As far as I know both were disobedient and died.

◄ Romans 5:12 ►

New International Version
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

The only way that this would be untrue is if God forces life eternal with the attending blessings on everyone whether they like it or not. I see absolutely no biblical support for such a view. Each person is given a choice.

Deuteronomy 30:19 ►

New International Version
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[FireDragon76]

That doesn't sound right at all. Our salvation is not a matter of God offering every human being the same choice as Adam. That's pelagianism, a doctrine that has been rejected as heresy since the early church. For one thing, our spiritual state is not like Adam. We are not innocent, we are born with a perverse inclination. Sin creates forces of habit in us that we cannot simply undo through our free will. We need an "intervention".

Adam and Eve didn't die merely for being disobedient. They died because they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which God had warned them not to eat. It's important to not read this story with an overly juridical or legalistic emphasis. God doesn't go around cursing people every time they disobey his will. If he did that, he wouldn't be merciful. So the story is not a test of Adam and Eve (honestly, why would God do that? That's not loving at all), it's a story of them moving from innocence into moral accountability. But with moral accountability also comes death and corruption.

This is the setting for the Gospel- we need a Savior, to get us beyond sin and death so that we can commune with God and have eternal life. That is why salvation is not a matter of obeying the law. Because we cannot earn our salvation, it's metaphysically impossible. God had to do all the real work, to take our fallen nature upon himself, to live as one of us. Our human response is what many Protestants call sanctification, but it's not the foundation for our salvation. The foundation is the finished work of Christ.

 

[EmSw]

That doesn't sound right at all. Our salvation is not a matter of God offering every human being the same choice as Adam. That's pelagianism, a doctrine that has been rejected as heresy since the early church. For one thing, our spiritual state is not like Adam. We are not innocent, we are born with a perverse inclination. Sin creates forces of habit in us that we cannot simply undo through our free will. We need an "intervention".

You have the exact same choice. You can either choose evil or life. If Adam and Eve can act against their 'spiritual state', then why can't you? Every person is born innocent, unless you think a holy God created can create sinful creatures. James tells us how sin is born in us, and it's not through creation.

James 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Adam and Eve didn't die merely for being disobedient. They died because they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which God had warned them not to eat. It's important to not read this story with an overly juridical or legalistic emphasis. God doesn't go around cursing people every time they disobey his will. If he did that, he wouldn't be merciful. So the story is not a test of Adam and Eve (honestly, why would God do that? That's not loving at all), it's a story of them moving from innocence into moral accountability. But with moral accountability also comes death and corruption.

My friend, eating from the tree God warned them not to eat, is DISOBEDIENCE!

This is the setting for the Gospel- we need a Savior, to get us beyond sin and death so that we can commune with God and have eternal life. That is why salvation is not a matter of obeying the law. Because we cannot earn our salvation, it's metaphysically impossible. God had to do all the real work, to take our fallen nature upon himself, to live as one of us. Our human response is what many Protestants call sanctification, but it's not the foundation for our salvation. The foundation is the finished work of Christ.

When Jesus said to keep His commandments and live, is this not salvation?

Why is it impossible for man to refrain from murder, lying, stealing, and lusting after his neighbor?

Maybe you can tell us what the finished work of Christ is. Is He not working today in believers?

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, he works today in believers by his Spirit. But the foundation of salvation was finished 2,000 years ago on Calvary when he defeated sin, death, and the Devil.

Adam and Eve did not die just from disobedience. Good fathers don't kill their children when they disobey. I am afraid your view of God is overly harsh or legalistic. God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit because he loved them, not because he desired to punish them or to tempt them.

 

[EmSw]

Yes, he works today in believers by his Spirit. But the foundation of salvation was finished 2,000 years ago on Calvary when he defeated sin, death, and the Devil.

Adam and Eve did not die just from disobedience. Good fathers don't kill their children when they disobey. I am afraid your view of God is overly harsh or legalistic. God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit because he loved them, not because he desired to punish them or to tempt them.

It does not say, in the day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I WILL KILL YOU! God did not punish them, their disobedience brought death upon them.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

If God truly honored man's free will, why didn't He just leave Adam and Eve to their choice of death and disobedience?

God can not honor that which man does not posess.

 

[7trees]

According to Roger Olson, who is an Arminian and expert on Jacobus Arminius' theology, Arminians affirm total depravity more or less identically to other Reformed Christians. It's not a point of difference. I also know for a fact Methodists affirm it is as well (I was raised Methodist).

Charles Grandison Finney was the first prominent evangelical to deny total depravity. He had a quasi-Pelagian belief in human free will and grace, influenced by American individualism and pragmatism, that salvation was simply a matter of choosing to follow Christ out of ones natural free will.

Rather- that salvation was simply a matter of choosing to follow Christ out of ones natural free will- influenced by the Spirit of Christ, empowered by grace and infused with faith.

No one is so misrepresented as Finney.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[7trees]

How has poor Finney been misrepresented here?

In the quote from me he is correctly represented not misrepresented. In the thread above he is often treated as an heretical monster that only did bad.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[7trees]

Did he not hold doctrines that have prior been deemed heretical?

Everyone holds doctrines deemed heretical by other professing Christians. Few were as clear or as intelligible as Finney however and almost all not extremely effective soul winners as he was. God blesses truth. BTW I have not heard what Finney actually taught quoted in context and criticised- I have just read these hysterical denunciations.