Does God Honor Man's "Free Will"?

[sdowney717]

Wow! We are to be extremely “concerned” to the point to sacrificial unconditional Loving those that are not going to repent, but God has no concern for them?

Is my Love greater than God’s Love, since I am concerned about everyone in this world?

Since there is no difference in the actions of those that are the elect and those not elected prior to being elected why the incontinency on God’s part?

Jesus says,
Luke 18:7
And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

God will avenge His people whom He foreknew in love, who now have repented and believe and are saved from the wrath of God coming on the sons of disobedience, who follow the prince of the power of the air, Satan, as their god, of whom is the entire unsaved mass of humankind. Satan works in them. But God works in His foreknown elect people chosen by Him from the foundation of the earth.

For the unsaved, this, they follow Satan as their god.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

For His people, this, who follow Christ as their God and savior.
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

2 Thessalonians 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Colossians 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[bling]

You have presented false dilemmas.

It is a very real "dilemma" for your doctrine so how do you resolve it, since it is not a dilemma for me as I showed in the last paragraph.

 

[bling]

Jesus says,
Luke 18:7
And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

God will avenge His people whom He foreknew in love, who now have repented and believe and are saved from the wrath of God coming on the sons of disobedience, who follow the prince of the power of the air, Satan, as their god, of whom is the entire unsaved mass of humankind. Satan works in them. But God works in His foreknown elect people chosen by Him from the foundation of the earth.

For the unsaved, this, they follow Satan as their god.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

For His people, this, who follow Christ as their God and savior.
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

2 Thessalonians 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Colossians 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Does God take pleasure in hurting people?

Did God take pleasure in seeing Job suffer?

Somethings have to be done, which is not God’s fault, but in doing these thing are we saying God is not concerned?

A father is sometimes called upon to “punish” his rebellious disobedient child for the sack of the other children, so does the father not still love the disobedient child?

 

[FireDragon76]

It does seem like everyone prays like a Calvinist when the rubber meets the road. But I think they hope deep down when it comes to their own salvation God is an Arminian.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[EmSw]

Yes. They do pray like Calvinists.

I have no such hope. My life is safely in His hands BECAUSE He has chosen me. Anything less would leave me trebling. It increases, not decreases my security:

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (John 10:26-29)

Actually, all you have is hope thatbrian. You have to hope you are chosen. You have no idea if you are chosen or not. Since there is nothing you can do to be chosen, your lot is worse than Arminians. We can do something to be chosen, and that is to answer His calling.

You don't know if you are one of those who will never perish, so snatching is of no concern for you. If you think you are one of the chosen, it's because you put yourself there. As I said, there is no way to know if you are chosen. You may be one of those who were 'never of us'. Your security is self-proclaimed, thus pointless.

 

[FireDragon76]

Arminians, especially the non-confessional evangelical kind descended from revivalism, can be very moralistic, for all that talk about answering a call, where is the recognition of human depravity? You just glibly say that answering the call is something we have within us the power to do. That needs to be accounted for, otherwise you just have a kind of pelagianism where salvation is a matter of conforming to morality and piety - the salvation of the Pharisee.

 

[EmSw]

Arminians, especially the non-confessional evangelical kind descended from revivalism, can be very moralistic, for all that talk about answering a call, where is the recognition of human depravity? You just glibly say that answering the call is something we have within us the power to do. That needs to be accounted for, otherwise you just have a kind of pelagianism where salvation is a matter of conforming to morality and piety - the salvation of the Pharisee.

So, are you a Calvinistic Catholic? First time, I've ever heard of one.

 

[DingDing]

Arminians, especially the non-confessional evangelical kind descended from revivalism, can be very moralistic, for all that talk about answering a call, where is the recognition of human depravity? You just glibly say that answering the call is something we have within us the power to do. That needs to be accounted for, otherwise you just have a kind of pelagianism where salvation is a matter of conforming to morality and piety - the salvation of the Pharisee.

I would say that total depravity is a notion without biblical support.

 

[FireDragon76]

So, are you a Calvinistic Catholic? First time, I've ever heard of one.

Catholics, like Calvinists, believe in original sin and human depravity or concupiscence.

I am not a catholic, I go to a Lutheran church. I'm a mere Christian. Confessionally I am more or less Orthodox, but I am not formally in communion with that church. Lutherans are neither Calvinist nor Arminian. The issues of free will and predestination are not primary themes in Lutheran theology.

 

[FireDragon76]

I would say that total depravity is a notion without biblical support.

It's a doctrine that developed through historical theology, actually starting with fathers like Tertullian, but you can find hints of this doctrine in the Bible in the epistles of Paul. All Christians prior to the 19th century believed in some kind of corruption to human nature that happened as a result of the Fall of Adam.

Total depravity can be a misnomer. It doesn't mean people are all axe murderers. It means we have disordered desires by default, and are born spiritually blind or dead. We can't even recognize our need for salvation without grace.

 

[DingDing]

It's a doctrine that developed through historical theology, actually starting with fathers like Tertullian, but you can find hints of this doctrine in the Bible in the epistles of Paul. All Christians prior to the 19th century believed in some kind of corruption to human nature that happened as a result of the Fall of Adam.

Total depravity can be a misnomer. It doesn't mean people are all axe murderers. It means we have disordered desires by default, and are born spiritually blind or dead. We can't even recognize our need for salvation without grace.

I disagree with this assessment. Total depravity is not biblical, though many read such a notion into the bible, but only at the expense of ignoring a fair amount of scripture. Again, as I recently mentioned in another thread, many people put blinders on (like blinders on a horse) when they read scripture. Total depravity is a human philosophical notion imposed upon scripture. Yea, one can find it, once someone has already decided that it is there, but if one takes the blinders off, it goes away.

 

[FireDragon76]

How do you explain Paul speaking of flesh warring with spirit? Paul is not speaking of Greek dualism here, but a corruption that poisons human nature. The power of sin still dwells within us and wars against what is good, even for those justified by faith. It corrupts every aspect of our being. Even our own estimation of our own sinfulness (which was one of Luther's points in the 95 Theses, we really cannot know with certainty if we have committed a deadly sin or not). Which is why Jesus says those who are justified by God will pray "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner". Because we really don't know the depth of our own sinfulness.

This has important ethical implications as well. If we all come to God as unprofitable servants and debtors (and we can't even know how much we really owe to God), then we have no basis to say that we are better than others or to exclude others for not measuring up to our estimation of piety or morality.

 

[DingDing]

How do you explain Paul speaking of flesh warring with spirit? Paul is not speaking of Greek dualism here, but a corruption that poisons human nature. The power of sin still dwells within us and wars against what is good, even for those justified by faith. ...

Ah, then you have just argued against total depravity. I rest my case.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ah, then you have just argued against total depravity. I rest my case.

The spirit he is speaking of here is usually interpreted as the Holy Spirit.

The point of Original Sin is that it's not natural for us to be able to do things like forgive our enemies, love our neighbor, or even love God. Those things are a gift from God, not from ourselves.

BTW, traditionally Arminians also believe in total depravity. Both the Dutch Arminians and Methodists traditionally affirm the doctrine in the exact same way Calvinists do.

 

[DingDing]

Not really.

Total depravity does not mean being depraved in quantity i.e., being as depraved as possible. It means that sin has damaged every part of man.

So man can still make some good decisions then, right?

 

[DingDing]

...
BTW, traditionally Arminians also believe in total depravity. Both the Dutch Arminians and Methodists traditionally affirm the doctrine in the exact same way Calvinists do.

Not from what I have read. That is where the definition of "TULIP" came from, from those followers of Arminius who had issues with these 5 major points. From all I have read, they were against the first 4, and undecided about the 5th.

 

[FireDragon76]

So man can still make some good decisions then, right?

There is a civil goodness which is a gift from God to restrain evil, but it's tainted by the desires of the flesh and doesn't really merit eternal life. If you want to see the pervasiveness of human depravity, look at Nazi Germany or Nuremburg and how one Jewish journalist commented on the "banality of evil". They were often ordinary people that rationalized their actions as good, and they probably even believed it themselves.