Does God choose who will be saved?

TheOriginalWhitehorse

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Endure2 said:
ok, heres the thing that gets me...

i know the bible says that God desires that no man perish and that all come to the saving knowledge of the truth, and that he died as a ransom for all sin and all people and all creation to redeem it. and thats enough for me.

but some people say that 'all" doesnt really mean all, it means something else but certainly not what it says. .... ok.

Well, in order to find out what the Bible is really saying, there are a couple of things we need to bear in mind. First of all, every verse in the Bible is God's word, both the verses we like and those we don't. So, we cannot use scripture to nullify scripture, ever, since it is all God's word.

Secondly, when we find two verses that seem to contradict each other, the problem is never with scripture, but the way we're perceiving it. Usually the answer to the problem is in context, or in the occasional nature of scripture. (This refers to the specific happening, or occasion, that is being discussed in scripture.)

So, on the one hand we have scripture saying God does not will that anyone should perish, yet we also have scripture saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The answer to the problem is that despite God's kindness, people hear the gospel every day and choose to reject it because they want to live their own lives.

But what about predestination? This scriptural doctrine is qualified by the fact that God used foreknowledge, and of course there is His divine will, which we cannot argue with because God is God and we all deserve hell. Anyone who is saved is not getting what they deserve, but a gift. God doesn't owe us anything.

God does not author sin. He does not sin, nor does He make anyone sin. This is where His desire for all to repent comes into play. But the bottom line is, people refuse. There's the foreknowledge in predestination again. But again, the Lord's will. It is written in scripture that many are called, but few are chosen. A hard doctrine? Yes. But in time God reveals to us how it is just. When we look at the suffering and crime in the world, we turn and blame God even though man made choices for which he is responsible. But we don't blame the criminal; we blame God. Is that fair, since God never committed the crime? If people feel it's so terrible that they choose not to believe in God anymore, then why is the doctrine of hell unfair now? Since Jesus paid for all those sins He never committed, why isn't it fair that God should choose the extent of mercy He wishes to bestow?

Be that as it may, predestination should never be viewed as something that keeps people out of heaven, since man makes his own choice to reject God. Instead, it should be viewed as a basis for faith and strong incentive to make our calling and election sure, as God commads us to through the apostle Paul. Even the wedding guest who was thrown out for not wearing wedding clothes, showed up without righteousness. Did he struggle against his flesh?

i guess im just glad that i wasnt one of those unlucky souls who is destined to burn in hell by Gods choice.

i mean, how do you go out into all the world preaching the great commision to all people... with the mind set that some of them simply arent meant to ever be saved and escape hell? that God didnt want them saved? becuase all he had to do was choose em...

are any of us really willing to believe that our God who cried tears of sorrow and passion on a bloody cross for us... didnt and wouldnt do it for everyone else too? how are willing to live with that?

We need to humbly ask the Lord to show us how His will is perfect. We cannot serve a God of our own making, because then we are no longer serving the Lord that exists.

PAUL SAID HE WISHED HE COULD GIVE UP HIS SALVATION AND SUFFER REJECTION FROM GOD, IF IT WOULD SAVE HIS BROTHERS THE PHARISEES! HE WANTED THEM SAVED! BUT THEY NEVER GOT SAVED! DOES PAUL LOVE US MORE THAN GOD? NO! IS PAULS LOVE FOR US BETTER AND DEEPER AND WIDER THAN GODS LOVE FOR US AND THEM? NO!

did our God Jesus Christ just leave some people helpless to burn in a very real hell?

did he pick and choose who to save?
did he do that just for you?... but not for others?

no way, never.
if he died for me, he died for everyone.

God is sovereign. But don't we tend to ignore the verses that tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and to make our calling and election sure? We ignore the verses that say if we continue in sin there is no longer any sacrifice for sin, and that He who is born of the Spirit forsakes it. And then we end up with a walloping surprise on judgment day. I think more souls will be saved if they know the truth and take God's command to give up sin very seriously. Jesus's death was not a license for sin, yet I've seen professing Christians behave with shocking wickedness (the kind that leaves pagans and atheists rightfully shaking their heads, but unfortunately rejecting Christ as a result) and then the Christian(?) says, "We are living in an age of grace." I've heard people say that in their seventies and beyond, close to the day they will meet the Lord, completely unrepentant and blind to what that will cost them.

Grace is an incredible gift. But because it is only half the story, we'd do well to enourage people to seek God hard and take the condition of their hearts very seriously. As long as anyone can look upon a dying, bleeding Savior who died for his/her sins and say, "Oh, well. God will forgive me!" I think we need to take a second look at how Jesus plans to return. It isn't going to be in a humble manger with a quiet spirit any longer. We have to take this seriously.
 
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Endure2

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well i dont think any of that except for your veiw of the pharaoh issue if thats how you see it, really means God chooses some to go hell and some to go to heavon.

many things are unclear, but what it isnt unclear, is that God wants everyone in heavon. and that is my only point. he chose no one for hell.
 
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vinc

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Whitehorse said:
:scratch:
I hope you don't feel that way. Any discussion amongst the family of God shouldn't be about who is right or wrong since we know that all truth comes from God Himself. His truth should be a source of praise for Him; I just hope we're simply trying to get to the truth God wants us to have, and we're advancing the kingdom of God and encouraging and helping each other along the way. Lord knows how many encouraging posts you've offered to bless us.

I pray and truly hope you will be encouraged and edified in return.

I agree with you Whitehorse that amongst the family of God...it is not who is it right or who is wrong.

Due to lack of sufficient scriptural backing...i cannot strongly say or convince. So, that was only a personal opinion that i have shared in the thread after reading a book from a saintly man of God in India. IMO No man in India could live such an incredible christian life as this man of God. He was of the opinion that most of God's creation would be saved (both alive and dead put together) although this may take thousands of years ahead. However, this should not make us complacent or make us take God's love and long-suffering nature for granted. And those who are already saved now would be growing further and further spiritually even after their earthly death. It takes a finite human millions of years to know and understand the infinite God. This man of God had been taken in the spirit to Heaven umpteen times and has conversed with Angels and Heavenly Saints. I have read his biography and all the books that he had written. So, i am basing my opinion on the revelation which God has given to him. So, he says, finally only a few would perish but most of them would be saved either on earth or in heaven. The work of saving souls goes on even in the Spiritual World. I deeply respect this man of God and his writings and i wholeheartedly agree with his opinion although i cannot really show sufficient scriptural backing for this opinion. Also, he preferred to keep this thing as a secret so that we may not take God for granted (which is already being done by us). So, i did not prefer to speak it out but your encouraging reply has made me write all this. I get one more scripture in my mind i.e ...

1 Peter 4:6 - For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

IMHO the Bible speaks about one thing at one place and speaks the contrary in another place and that is why one needs to read both the sides to get a balanced understanding of the Bible and God. And personally i still feel that it is good to preach that "Only a remnant will be saved" thingy so as to inculcate seriousness and Godly reverence and fear in us which goes a long way to keep us away from sinning against God and helping us to keep us safe in Him.
 
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deg

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This next scripture addresses the main thoughts in the posting (choosing God):
John 15:16 (Jesus is talking here.)

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
I've been reading your posts everyone. Interesting thoughts. I'm going to throw a big wrench in here, and I know any mind determined to throw these thoughts away can.



1 Tim 4:10,11


10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.
Also:
Every knee shall bow...


2578 kampto = "Bow"
Used of religious veneration (honouring/exalting). To bow one's self.


People are honouring God here. Makes sense, doesn't it? Think about it; why the heck would God want forced worship? All that proves is that God has the power to force people. Great. He knew that at the beginning. There is absolutely no value in it. None. He is better off to have just made angels to worship Him. It says people are going to confess to Him too (Romans 14:11, READ IT!). Pretty marvellous thoughts.



You'd think that if people 1) confess and 2) bow, He'd be happy to save. Come to think of it, that does seem like the God I know.

Vinc: Saduh Sundar Singh? He was a marvellous man! How did you find out about Him? And I agree, I sense that salvation will reach deep, deep into the reaches of eternity. How far will it go?

Before you all tackle me with heretical lunges, please understand that I don't even understand what I am writing. Maybe these thoughts are contrary to the purpose of God. I honestly don't know what God has planned, and I can't discern from the scriptures the entire eternal plan of God (hahhahah, if anyone says they can, they're very foolish!) But I do know that God, the God of Powerful Love, thought this whole thing, the whole of creation and pain, was worth it. That gives me great, great hope.

Lord bless us in our pursuit of His things.
Deg
 
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Endure2

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bulldog

do you really need much of it?
if so, why? why are you hesitant to beleive that God wants everyone to be saved? i mean... really stop and think about that. God in all his goodness...

but i think there is plenty.
from the commonly known scriptures like where peter said God wills that no man perish, and where paul said that Christ died as a ransom for ALL and desires that all come unto salvation and a saving knowledge of the truth.

and God is no respecter of persons.

you can say that all doesnt really mean all, it means something else, but not all... but i find that simply foolish badgering of the simple apparent truth.

if the bible says God doesnt delight in the destruction of the wicked, then he doesnt delight in it, he doesnt want it to happen. though you can argue symantics all you want.

and more profound than that, like i said before, if human paul wished that he could suffer rejection from God in order to save the lost pharisees who we can easily say never accepted christ (and on who the teaching of romans 9 is based, "the chapter which is often used to prove that God doesnt desire to save everyone" ) then.... if paul who wasnt rejecting the will of God, and cant even love us like God does... wanted them saved, then i bet God does too.

i understand that to many this isnt proof, but to people who want simple truth like me, it is.
 
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deg

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Endure, what do you feel is the pinnacle of God's plan in creation?

What I mean is, what is it going to look like when the Ancient of Days takes His throne and sits, for the final time, and everyone who is ever going to, will attend? Who will be there? Where will the others be? Are there any others? Where is God heading with this whole "life" thing? What's the plan?

I know you can't possibly answer with all true understanding, but I'd like to hear what your perspective of the end is. It often gives a very good illustration of what you perceive God to be, but that's not really what I'm trying to get at. I'd just like to hear what you think, and maybe a little of why.

Deg.
 
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Dicy mind

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BlessedVegan said:
The poster was saying that God chooses and decides who will believe in him and then be saved, and who doesn't. Is this true?

I don't belive in that because we have our own free will.

But it's my understanding from what Jesus said that some people are born weak minded. The is an metaphor in the new testament about this but I cannot find the verses. Sorry.
It was like when the seeds are planted some of them fall above rock, where they cannot grow and some fall to shrub and birds eat them. but some fall to the right kind of ground where they can grow.

Thats just the way I see it.

God sure knows will a person be saved even the person wouldn't know this him self, yet.





Interesting, I just came across a couple verses when I was looking something else:

John 12 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
John 12
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

So it's bossible. Like everything else to God of course.
 
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Bulldog

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Endure2 said:
do you really need much of it?
if so, why? why are you hesitant to beleive that God wants everyone to be saved? i mean... really stop and think about that. God in all his goodness...

Of course I need biblical support, otherwise I am believing someting by blind faith. God is certainly good and loving, but we cannot ignore other attributes He has (judgement, wrath, justice, etc.)

God is not some torturing sadist who pleasures to see men fail. However, the Bible is clear that God clearly has a will that only Christians, those who are chosen and called.


but i think there is plenty.
from the commonly known scriptures like where peter said God wills that no man perish, and where paul said that Christ died as a ransom for ALL and desires that all come unto salvation and a saving knowledge of the truth.

Which verse specifically are you speaking of?

and God is no respecter of persons.

Of course not.
 
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bloodofthelamb12

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THAT is a loaded question. I'm going to try to tackle it, but it may take some time.

Before I start, I'd like to ask you a question; if God did choose, would it matter? Ultimately whoever was chosen would be saved, and this discussion would be moot. But fortunately, I don't think God chooses who will be saved; I believe that we have been given free will. Bear with me for a minute, there is cause for the coming example...

Suppose I built a model boat; not any simple sort of boat, either, but the sort of model boat you see in movies that looks 1/4 scale or so. Now you can bet that by the time I've finished that boat, I'm going to know it inside and out. From every drop of glue to each little plank; I'll know them all, because I made them and vested a lot of time and energy into their construction.

Now consider, if I can care so deeply for something as small as an inanimate model boat simply because I gave it my time, how much more does God care about His model boat, on which people dwell that He's endowed with life by the sharing of Himself? God knows the universe like I knew my boat; from the number of hairs on my head to a blinking pulsar 10 billion light years from the earth.

Make no mistake; God's 'boat' is far more complex than mine; for God exists independently from this universe in its entirety. Time, space, matter, energy; all of it is separate from God. All of it is in His 'boat'. God sees Creation like a movie reel in His hands; we, on the other hand, live all our lives within the silver screen. But so great was God's skill in forging Creation, which He can reach into the limits of time and touch the flow of history as He desires. And touch it He has, many times; however, once He did much more than touch it. He entered it. So great was His affection for the Created that He allowed it to touch Him, so that it could cleave to Him and be drawn from the boundaries of Creation. Thus was salvation brought to man, when the unknowable God became knowable Man, the Christ, who died a wholly undeserved death and was raised three days later. 40 days later Christ left the Earth, departing from Creation, once again. Yet no time passes, past Creation's walls; for time holds no claim on eternity.

God exists apart from Creation; but He may reach in and cover the Created with His mercies, and will if the Created will but believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We exist inside the box, and have been shown a way out of it. God forces Himself on no man, but provides a stairway to us all. Now, like an animal left in a cage with door wide open, we've got a chance to escape. God may well want us to leave, but He desires friends, not slaves. As Christ said, "No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you." (John 15:15)

Just because God knows you well enough to already know what choices you're going to make doesn't mean they're not your decisions. If it's not true with a friend whose that close to you, then it's not true with God. The important thing is that right now, your decisions still belong to you; whether God knows the end result is irrelevant. Whatever you do you're acting according to His knowledge.
 
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vinc

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deg said:
Vinc: Saduh Sundar Singh? He was a marvellous man! How did you find out about Him? And I agree, I sense that salvation will reach deep, deep into the reaches of eternity. How far will it go?

Yes Deg, You guessed right bro. That saintly man of God was none another Sadhu Sundar Singh, a great twentieth century apostle of India. Well, i did not find him neither did i met him. I came across his biography and books. He lived during my Grandmother's time.

Pls check out these 2 wonderful books and testimony page of Sadhu Sundar Singh :-

The Visions of Sadhu Sundar Singh of India - http://www.eaglevision.com.my/ssvisions.htm

At The Master's Feet - http://www.sadhusundarsingh.homestead.com/files/feet.html

Sadhu Sundar Singh's
Testimony of Christ - http://www.sadhusundarsingh.homestead.com/

They have been a tremendous source of spiritual blessings to me.

God Bless you,
Vincent :)
 
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Endure2

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look, im being misunderstood,
i dont believe everyone will go to heavon, what i believe is that in no way did God ever choose or destine that any human go to hell.
this theory of predestination, that God chooses some to be saved and some to not be... i dont believe it. i believe it was Gods desire for us all to be saved.
and i do believe in predestination becuase paul clearly taught it to the church of ephesus, but i didnt mean what people think. what did it mean? well thats for another day. but i dont believe God ever chose for some people to go to hell, he desires that we all be saved, and we all know it doesnt happen becuase of free will and disobedience. but my case in point, no God does not choose some to be saved, and some to be damned, he wants us all saved.
if we go to hell, its not because God chose so.

deg,
i dont believe everyone will go to heavon, i do believe in hell, and i do beleive people will be there, but i dont believe that was ever the choice and will of God.
God wanted us all in heavon.


bulldog,
blind faith is so bad huh?
does it really take much to make you believe that God doesnt want people in hell? how could this be difficult for you? and thats all im saying. im not saying everyone ends up in heavon, im not saying that no one goes to hell, or that it does not exist, all im saying is that God doesnt want anyone there and never simply chose anyone to go there.
i never denied his other attributes and dont feel like they have any bearing on this conversation.

only christians?
i have no beef with that, but i dont believe it is Gods will that anyone not be a christian.

well if you have to have the specific scripture locations
they are
2 peter 3.9
1 tim 2.4-6

im sorry, i assumed youd recognise them.
and i simply dont understand why people really need to get down to the nitty gritty and divide lots of scripture to find out whether God wants people to go to heavon or not. its clear man, God doesnt want people in hell.
they do go there, but it isnt because thats what God wanted for them.
the scripture is clear, he wants us all in heavon.

this theory that God stoicly chooses some to live and some to die is a lie.
God made every sacrifice and preperation possible in order to try and get us all into heavon, and that is his desire.

the only thing i disagree with is this theory of misunderstood predestination that God predestines some to live and some to die. its absurd and completely unlike God.
God predestined that we all be saved,
becuase thats what the bible says God wants, but it doesnt happen becuase we have free will and this world is cursed.
 
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TheOriginalWhitehorse

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It begins with authority. How do we know what the truth is? We can't just decide what we think is true and then decide that's what Christianity is. We have to get it straight from the Lord. So, we have to make a decision. One of the most basic doctrines of CHristianity is that the Bible is God's word. No one who rejects this is a Christian. But if you accept it, then you have to accept all of ut.

Now as for the seeming contradictory verses: the fault is never with scripture, but with our lack of understanding regarding the contexts and the occasions each scripture is addressing. We have qualifications, perhaps, of similar circumstances, but not the same circumstances. God does good for all His creatures, He saves us in many ways. But salvation from His fimnal wrath is only for those who receive Christ. So the verse that describes God as the savior of all men, ye-Jesus's sacrifice was for all, but not all will receive it. That is the difference in context and occasion. It is written that many are called, but few are chosen. Jesus's blood covered all sins, but not all will receive the benefit of the sacrifice.

Endure2, if it helps any, there was never a person who trusted in the Lord, and to whom God denied salvation. The Bible says He is also a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. People aren't all going to hell against their wills. They joke about it, act like hell will be just a big party with their buddies; they don't want God. It isn't like God is putting them some place they never wanted to be and sought with their whole hearts not to be. If they had, God is clear He saves those.

Well, I have to get back to repairing my other puter. If anyone has any information on its demise, kindly contact me. ;)
 
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deg

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Endure, according to your perspective, how do you interpret the following (in other words, what does this verse say to you?):

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
John 15:16
 
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deg

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vinc said:
Yes Deg, You guessed right bro. That saintly man of God was none another Sadhu Sundar Singh, a great twentieth century apostle of India. Well, i did not find him neither did i met him. I came across his biography and books. He lived during my Grandmother's time.

Pls check out these 2 wonderful books and testimony page of Sadhu Sundar Singh :-

The Visions of Sadhu Sundar Singh of India - http://www.eaglevision.com.my/ssvisions.htm

At The Master's Feet - http://www.sadhusundarsingh.homestead.com/files/feet.html

Sadhu Sundar Singh's
Testimony of Christ - http://www.sadhusundarsingh.homestead.com/

They have been a tremendous source of spiritual blessings to me.

God Bless you,
Vincent :)

Vincent, thanks so very much. I just finished the visions section (I believe they are in his semi-autobiographical book too, which was compiled from his personal letters), and it is incredibly powerful. He has an unmistakable insight into spiritual things. Those writings are marvellous, just marvellous, like pure gold. Endure, you should check out (at the very least) the visions page. It is worth every moment. I am also going to read Masters Feet and Testimony, when I am able. University is a busy place, and it's often hard to find a good block of time to read!

Lord bless us all.

Sadhu Sundar Singh said:
After this, the angels appointed to the duty took him, and shut him down in the darkness from which he is not permitted to come out. The state of evildoers in that place is so terrible, and so inexpressibly fierce is this torment, that those who see them tremble at the sight. Because of the limitations of our worldly speech, we can only say this, that wherever the soul of a sinner is, always and in every way, there is nothing but pain that ceases not for a moment. A kind of lightless fire burns forever and torments these souls, but neither are they altogether consumed, nor does the fire die out. A spirit who was watching what had just happened said, "Who knows but that in the end this may not be a cleansing flame?" In the dark part of the world of spirits, which is called Hell, there are many grades and planes, and the particular one in which any spirit lives in suffering is dependent on the quantity and character of his sins. In fact God made them all in His own image (Gen. 1:26, 27; Col. 1:15), yet by their connection with sin they have disfigured this image, and have made it unbeautiful and evil. They have, indeed, a kind of spiritual body, but it is exceedingly loathsome and frightful, and if they are not restored by true repentance, and the grace of God, (while on earth), then in this fearful form they must remain in torment forever.


deg
 
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Bulldog

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2 peter 3.9

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

The question is what "us-ward" means.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:​

"Us" in reference in the book of second Peter is Christians, clearly stated here. What is the promise then? God's promise to believers not to perish, but His promise for them to obtain eternal life, in election.

1 tim 2.4-6

I discussed this in a previous post in this thread:


The Greek word for "all" (pas) can mean either "all" in the sense of "all individually" or "all types." The latter would make sense here. Take a look at verses one and two:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (1 Timothy 2:1-2)​
Kings and those in authority are a type of people. Paul was exorting Timothy to pray for them because of persecution by those in authority at the time. Secondly, look at verse 5:

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim. 2:5)​

Since (according to your view) the context here is "all men individually", do you believe that Christ mediates between all men and God?
 
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