TheOriginalWhitehorse
Well-Known Member
Endure2 said:ok, heres the thing that gets me...
i know the bible says that God desires that no man perish and that all come to the saving knowledge of the truth, and that he died as a ransom for all sin and all people and all creation to redeem it. and thats enough for me.
but some people say that 'all" doesnt really mean all, it means something else but certainly not what it says. .... ok.
Well, in order to find out what the Bible is really saying, there are a couple of things we need to bear in mind. First of all, every verse in the Bible is God's word, both the verses we like and those we don't. So, we cannot use scripture to nullify scripture, ever, since it is all God's word.
Secondly, when we find two verses that seem to contradict each other, the problem is never with scripture, but the way we're perceiving it. Usually the answer to the problem is in context, or in the occasional nature of scripture. (This refers to the specific happening, or occasion, that is being discussed in scripture.)
So, on the one hand we have scripture saying God does not will that anyone should perish, yet we also have scripture saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The answer to the problem is that despite God's kindness, people hear the gospel every day and choose to reject it because they want to live their own lives.
But what about predestination? This scriptural doctrine is qualified by the fact that God used foreknowledge, and of course there is His divine will, which we cannot argue with because God is God and we all deserve hell. Anyone who is saved is not getting what they deserve, but a gift. God doesn't owe us anything.
God does not author sin. He does not sin, nor does He make anyone sin. This is where His desire for all to repent comes into play. But the bottom line is, people refuse. There's the foreknowledge in predestination again. But again, the Lord's will. It is written in scripture that many are called, but few are chosen. A hard doctrine? Yes. But in time God reveals to us how it is just. When we look at the suffering and crime in the world, we turn and blame God even though man made choices for which he is responsible. But we don't blame the criminal; we blame God. Is that fair, since God never committed the crime? If people feel it's so terrible that they choose not to believe in God anymore, then why is the doctrine of hell unfair now? Since Jesus paid for all those sins He never committed, why isn't it fair that God should choose the extent of mercy He wishes to bestow?
Be that as it may, predestination should never be viewed as something that keeps people out of heaven, since man makes his own choice to reject God. Instead, it should be viewed as a basis for faith and strong incentive to make our calling and election sure, as God commads us to through the apostle Paul. Even the wedding guest who was thrown out for not wearing wedding clothes, showed up without righteousness. Did he struggle against his flesh?
i guess im just glad that i wasnt one of those unlucky souls who is destined to burn in hell by Gods choice.
i mean, how do you go out into all the world preaching the great commision to all people... with the mind set that some of them simply arent meant to ever be saved and escape hell? that God didnt want them saved? becuase all he had to do was choose em...
are any of us really willing to believe that our God who cried tears of sorrow and passion on a bloody cross for us... didnt and wouldnt do it for everyone else too? how are willing to live with that?
We need to humbly ask the Lord to show us how His will is perfect. We cannot serve a God of our own making, because then we are no longer serving the Lord that exists.
PAUL SAID HE WISHED HE COULD GIVE UP HIS SALVATION AND SUFFER REJECTION FROM GOD, IF IT WOULD SAVE HIS BROTHERS THE PHARISEES! HE WANTED THEM SAVED! BUT THEY NEVER GOT SAVED! DOES PAUL LOVE US MORE THAN GOD? NO! IS PAULS LOVE FOR US BETTER AND DEEPER AND WIDER THAN GODS LOVE FOR US AND THEM? NO!
did our God Jesus Christ just leave some people helpless to burn in a very real hell?
did he pick and choose who to save?
did he do that just for you?... but not for others?
no way, never.
if he died for me, he died for everyone.
God is sovereign. But don't we tend to ignore the verses that tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and to make our calling and election sure? We ignore the verses that say if we continue in sin there is no longer any sacrifice for sin, and that He who is born of the Spirit forsakes it. And then we end up with a walloping surprise on judgment day. I think more souls will be saved if they know the truth and take God's command to give up sin very seriously. Jesus's death was not a license for sin, yet I've seen professing Christians behave with shocking wickedness (the kind that leaves pagans and atheists rightfully shaking their heads, but unfortunately rejecting Christ as a result) and then the Christian(?) says, "We are living in an age of grace." I've heard people say that in their seventies and beyond, close to the day they will meet the Lord, completely unrepentant and blind to what that will cost them.
Grace is an incredible gift. But because it is only half the story, we'd do well to enourage people to seek God hard and take the condition of their hearts very seriously. As long as anyone can look upon a dying, bleeding Savior who died for his/her sins and say, "Oh, well. God will forgive me!" I think we need to take a second look at how Jesus plans to return. It isn't going to be in a humble manger with a quiet spirit any longer. We have to take this seriously.
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