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Does God choose who will be saved?

Discussion in 'Deeper Fellowship' started by BlessedVegan, Jan 28, 2005.

  1. BlessedVegan

    BlessedVegan Just a pretty lil' tattooed lady...

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    OK this was mentioned in another post and I must say I don't understand. The poster was saying that God chooses and decides who will believe in him and then be saved, and who doesn't. Is this true? Can it be supported by scripture? I'm a really new Christian so I'm not really well educated about the scripture. But is this true? If it is..how can it be right? I mean...for God to choose that so and so will not believe in him and so will never be saved and so will go to Hell...how is this just? Someone please explain it to me :sigh:
     
  2. Bulldog

    Bulldog Don't Tread on Me

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    Hi Blessed Vegan,

    Election does not mean that God chooses people to believe and to not believe - it means that God chooses those who will be saved out of all sinners, men sin by choice, but by nature cannot believe by choice, which is why God must choose them and draw them to Him.

    Justice is getting what one deserves. Those sinners who are not elected to salvation receive justice because they receive the consequence of their sin - spiritual death.
     
  3. BlessedVegan

    BlessedVegan Just a pretty lil' tattooed lady...

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    I don't understand. Do you mean that of those unforgiven sinners (those who don't repent) God chooses who will be saved anyway? IE..they never turn to God themselves but some of them he saves anyway?:help:
     
  4. Bulldog

    Bulldog Don't Tread on Me

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    Yes. Men, because of spiritual death in Adam, have a will that will never turn to God unless God changes their heart.

    Blessed Vegan, I encourage you to study this issue in depth. What I am telling you is my view, but there are many others out there. Test these different views against the scriptures, and see which one comes out true.
     
  5. BlessedVegan

    BlessedVegan Just a pretty lil' tattooed lady...

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    Thanks for responding! Can you reccomend a book or something I should read on this subject?
     
  6. TheOriginalWhitehorse

    TheOriginalWhitehorse New Member

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    The faith we need to be saved comes from God so that no one can boast of his salvation:

    Ephesians 2:8-9

    2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

    2:9not of works, lest anyone should boast.


    God chooses who will believe through foreknowledge and brings it to pass according to His will:

    1 Peter 1:1-2

    1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    1:2elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.


    But His foreknowledge does not in any way imply He did not choose according to His perfect will:

    Philippians 2:13

    2:12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

    2:13for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.


    Various verses:

    Ephesians 1:3-6

    1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

    1:4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

    1:5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

    1:6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.


    2 Thessalonians 2:13

    2:13But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

    2:14to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    Romans 8:28-30

    8:28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

    8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    8:30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


    There are many more, but I hope it helps.

    Blessings, WH
     
  7. vinc

    vinc Senior Member

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    Lord Jesus Christ Himself said that He will draw "all" men (including women) unto Him (in salvation) if He is lifted up (after resurrection).

    John 12:32 : And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    The below verse also suggests the large-heartedness of God Almighty to win all human beings to Himself eternally.

    1 Timothy 2:4 : Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    I think, hope, wish and pray (in these lines) that all human beings shall be saved and live in eternal bliss with our Heavenly Father.

    The 2 verses clearly speak out that God does not choose who should be saved and who should not be. Christ shed His precious blood for all human beings so that all the human beings can be saved provided they are willing to accept Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour and lord in their hearts.

    So, God wants every human being......

    whether good or bad,
    whether sinner or righteous,
    whether weak or strong,
    whether rich or poor,
    whether foolish or wise,
    whether black or white or any other color,
    and irrespective or race, caste or creed to be saved and be with Him forever and forever.
     
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  8. BlessedVegan

    BlessedVegan Just a pretty lil' tattooed lady...

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    So vinc how do you feel the verse you posted relates to the ones that Whitehorse posted? They seem to be saying opposing things.
     
  9. Bulldog

    Bulldog Don't Tread on Me

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    I'm sure there are more, but two come quickly to mind:

    Chosen by God by R.C Sproul

    THe Potter's Freedom by James R. White
     
  10. Bulldog

    Bulldog Don't Tread on Me

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    Not a salvation context- the context is judgement here. True, drawing to salvation always results in faith (John 6:44)



    The Greek word for "all" (pas) can mean either "all" in the sense of "all individually" or "all types." The latter would make sense here. Take a look at verses one and two:

    I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (1 Timothy 2:1-2)

    Kings and those in authority are a type of people. Paul was exorting Timothy to pray for them because of persecution by those in authority at the time. Secondly, look at verse 5:

    For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim. 2:5)

    Since (according to your view) the context here is "all men individually", do you believe that Christ mediates between all men and God?
     
  11. vinc

    vinc Senior Member

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    Most of the Scriptures which Whitehorse has posted do not oppose my reply. In fact, all those who are saved eventually can familiarize themselves with those verses that God has ordained all these things in His Foreknowledge and that we are already blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. But, it takes time for all these spiritual truths to sink in deep into our spirits.

    Whitehorse is also true when he says that God also chooses but this choosing, in my opinion, is for the specific life which each individual has to live on earth. In my personal opinion it is not for salvation.

    Although God wants every human being to be saved, He has also given them a freewill. Out of their own free will, God expects them to come to Him just like any Parent would love it when his/her child comes running to him/her.

    But most of us kept on disobeying His will and have exercised our own will contrary to God's will and brought the "world system" to this chaotic stage. God has waited all these thousands of years with tremendous long-suffering nature towards human beings. And God's children who are saved by His grace are doing their best possible according to their God-given Spirit, God-given insight, God-given braveness and God-given grace.

    But, it is a real fact which i believe from the bottom of my heart that God who is "Love" Himself really expects and wants everyone to be saved and be with Him in eternal bliss and the 2 verses quoted in my previous reply are clearly stating that.

    I still would prefer to stick to this opinion although other christians might differ in opinion.
     
  12. ydouxist

    ydouxist Senior Veteran

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    I don't believe God chooses who will be saved.
    He does know who will accept His plan during their life.
    Could it be that from His foreknowledge He places people on earth at specific points in time to accomplish His will????
     
  13. TheOriginalWhitehorse

    TheOriginalWhitehorse New Member

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    But then what do you do with all those verses, and the ones I posted are just the tip of the iceberg, that so clearly state that He does choose?

    Vinc, God does not want for anyone to be lost, that is He does not take pleasure in anyone rejecting His offer of salvation. But it's so clear in scripture that only the remnant will be saved. Nowhere in scripture does it say everyone will be saved. It's a difficult teaching, but faith an repentance are the earmarks of true saving faith. Those who do not acknowledge that Jesus is God, that we have sinned, that His death and resurrection are the only acceptable way to heaven for us and that He is the only way will not be saved unless they repent.
     
  14. vinc

    vinc Senior Member

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    Whitehorse : I agree with what you have written. However, I said God wants everyone to be saved and for that i have supported the statement with the Scripture verses. Even i want everyone to be saved. Coz we love and hope the best for every human being. I did not say "everyone will be saved". Coz i am not sure of that being an ordinary human so i cannot say that statement.

    Although the Bible says "only a remnant will be saved",

    it also says in Revelation 7:9,10 : "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

    I could post only the above verse as a balancing statement for that statement.

    By saying that "only a remnant will be saved", we are limiting God's power to save. We as belonging to God ought to hope that everyone get saved thru proper repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone. I am sure you hope the same too as a good christian.

    I still prefer to hope the best for the whole of God's creation irrespective of that statement in the Bible "only a remnant will be saved".

    However, this is my personal opinion bro. Other christians like you may differ in their opinion. You may be right in your discernment and i maybe wrong in my discernment only the eons ahead can reveal the truth.
     
  15. Jesusfan4ever

    Jesusfan4ever With God ALL things are possible! Matthew 19:26

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    God gave all of us a free will & we choose whether or not we're gonna accept Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior. God's not gonna force Himself on anybody. :amen:

    .............................................................................................................
    God Is AWESOME! :clap:
     
  16. vinc

    vinc Senior Member

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    Amen Jesusfan4ever. What you have said is true. :)
     
  17. TheOriginalWhitehorse

    TheOriginalWhitehorse New Member

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    Hi, Vinc. Thank you for your reply. It's a blessing to be able to discuss this with the Lord's people.

    I certainly agree that it would be wonderful if everyone were saved, except for the worst offenders like hitler and his henchmen. Besides, it really bothers me to see people I love rejecting the Lord. I certainly agree with you that the Lord is kindly and does not delight in the harm of anyone's soul; He wants everyone to come to Him in the sense that He does not will for them to make self-destructive choices.

    Take Pharaoh, for example. The Bible says the Lord hardened his heart. However, Pharaoh made the first move to harden his own heart.

    But it also helps me to remember that God's wrath is never unjust. I do take comfort in that because Hitler deserves what he gets. Stalin deserves what he gets. The underlings of both deserve what they get for their heartless, merciless, pitiless, cruel acts against God's people and the public in general. The terrorists in the middle east deserve what they get. Judas of all people deserves what he gets. I used to feel bad for Esau, but then I remembered that it wasn't his earthly inheritance that he was rejecting, but the spiritual promise that Abraham would be the father of nations. It was Esau's place in that, his role in bringing salvation to both Jews and Gentiles, an incredible honor from God that Esau threw away for a stupid bowl of soup. God has chosen his people out of all nations through Jesus Christ.

    But here is what the Lord says will happen in the end:

    Revelation 20:11-15

    20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, F109 and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

    20:13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

    20:14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. F110

    20:15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


    God is warning us of this because it will take place.

    Also:

    Matthew 7:13-14

    7:13"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

    7:14Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


    Likewise:

    Matthew 7:21-23

    7:21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    7:22Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

    7:23And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!


    I know these are hard, hard teachings. Everyone goes through a time when we wonder whether or not this is fair, until God shows us what sin really is and does. There is a very real wickedness in sin. But God does also promise that those who believe in Him and obey Him will be saved. He promises that to those who overcome sin and unbelief. That's the flipside: when someone rejects the gospel, they are making the choice to do that. The ball was in their court when they rejected the Capstone.

    Well, we do have scripture-the prophecies in God's word. But we all go through this time of mourning when we have a hard time grasping the reality and the enormity of hell. In time, God reveals why His plan really is best. Rejection of Christ and the repentance He bought leads to grave wickedness. But God gives us the option to repent and because He wills no one's spiritual death, He honors repentance when it is sincere.

    I'm pleased for an opportunity to discuss these things more-thank you for your post. We know that all truth is from God alone. It's just a great opportunity to work through some very important doctrines collectively as the body of Christ. :bow:
     
  18. vinc

    vinc Senior Member

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    No mention Whitehorse. I appreciate your reply. Thank you for considering me as one of the Lord's people. I felt as if you honoured me. LOL.

    I am sure what i was trying to say is not having sufficient Scriptural backing. I would no longer want to give any further convincing reply.
     
  19. Endure2

    Endure2 Veteran

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    ok, heres the thing that gets me...

    i know the bible says that God desires that no man perish and that all come to the saving knowledge of the truth, and that he died as a ransom for all sin and all people and all creation to redeem it. and thats enough for me.

    but some people say that 'all" doesnt really mean all, it means something else but certainly not what it says. .... ok.

    i guess im just glad that i wasnt one of those unlucky souls who is destined to burn in hell by Gods choice.

    i mean, how do you go out into all the world preaching the great commision to all people... with the mind set that some of them simply arent meant to ever be saved and escape hell? that God didnt want them saved? becuase all he had to do was choose em...

    are any of us really willing to believe that our God who cried tears of sorrow and passion on a bloody cross for us... didnt and wouldnt do it for everyone else too? how are willing to live with that?

    PAUL SAID HE WISHED HE COULD GIVE UP HIS SALVATION AND SUFFER REJECTION FROM GOD, IF IT WOULD SAVE HIS BROTHERS THE PHARISEES! HE WANTED THEM SAVED! BUT THEY NEVER GOT SAVED! DOES PAUL LOVE US MORE THAN GOD? NO! IS PAULS LOVE FOR US BETTER AND DEEPER AND WIDER THAN GODS LOVE FOR US AND THEM? NO!

    did our God Jesus Christ just leave some people helpless to burn in a very real hell?

    did he pick and choose who to save?
    did he do that just for you?... but not for others?

    no way, never.
    if he died for me, he died for everyone.
     
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  20. TheOriginalWhitehorse

    TheOriginalWhitehorse New Member

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    :scratch:

    I hope you don't feel that way. Any discussion amongst the family of God shouldn't be about who is right or wrong since we know that all truth comes from God Himself. His truth should be a source of praise for Him; I just hope we're simply trying to get to the truth God wants us to have, and we're advancing the kingdom of God and encouraging and helping each other along the way. Lord knows how many encouraging posts you've offered to bless us.

    I pray and truly hope you will be encouraged and edified in return.
     
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