Do you think the Wise Men were pagan astrologers?

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JimB

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Do you think the Wise Men were pagan astrologers who followed astrological signs to find the "king of the Jews"?

And, if you do, what does that say about who and what God will use to accomplish His purposes?

~ Hugh D’Mann
Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have
 

zaksmummy

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I looked them up on Wikipeadia, it doesnt actually say anything about them being astrologers, rather a caste of priests in Persia, who later became Zoroastrian. Or they could have been from a tribe whose descendants are the modern day Kurds.

Either way God can use anyone to accomplish his purposes. What about Balaam and his donkey, Balaam was a diviner. Abraham was a pagan before God chose him. Its not what or who you are I think that is important to God its whether you will obey, and they knew how important he was, regardless of their preexisting religion to travel all that way to find a child who is King of the whole universe.

I personally have never like or wanted to have anything to do with astrology, but I do quite like astronomy, the heavens are an interesting place to look at at night. God too seems to like astronomy, how often does it talk about the signs in the heavens in the bible (the coming of the new moons being one example), I think sometimes we miss things because we associate astronomy and astrology together.
 
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That_Guy_Josh

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I think this is an excellent question! I love to think outside the box when it comes to the bible and I think your question is an excellent way to do that.

What if they were? If these hypothetical pagan astrologers did follow the star that led them to Jesus then we can say that God has displayed to us right from the beginning that anyone can come to Jesus. These astrologers sought out Jesus and they found him and worshipped him and presented him with gifts.

Like I said, just thinking outside the box here...
 
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That_Guy_Josh

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Ok, so I couldn't stop there and decided to do my own research and the first website I found sorta asked the same question you did. Here is a quote from the site:

"We believe it likely that God used these pagan Magi to recognize the prophetic times, even though His Chosen People, to whom God gave the prophecy in the first place, had long since ignored and forgotten it. We shall study how these "Wise Men" of the Babylonian King came to the point where they fully believed in this specific timetable for the appearance of the Jewish Christ, Jesus."

It goes into a lot more stuff and is a pretty interesting read so I'll paste the link.

dubya dubya dubya dot cuttingedge.org/News/n1751.cfm

Enjoy!
 
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tturt

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Since Yahweh used a donkey, I think it shows He will use whatever or whomever He pleases. There are people who look at what's in His Word and reason that much, if not all of it, is false. That's the reason I don't think some of things that are reported today are 100% false.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Do you think the Wise Men were pagan astrologers who followed astrological signs to find the "king of the Jews"?


Pagans? yes, probably from Persia. Astrologers? Not just astrologers, but they did practice astrology (obviously).


And, if you do, what does that say about who and what God will use to accomplish His purposes?

I think a large point to the story is that the good news was to the nations as well.
 
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synger

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God has always used non-believers to his own purposes. The Old Testament is rife with it, especially when you get into the Babylonian captivity. The prophets specifically say that God will use the "kings of the north" to punish his people, and to carry them away into captivity. And they did.
 
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Tamara224

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I've heard that the Magi may have been influenced by the writings/teachings/prophecies of Daniel.

It makes sense - Daniel was in Babylon and was a man of prominence especially with regard to prophecy.

Some people have suggested that it was Daniel who was given the revelation that Christ would be born under a star and that's how the Magi knew about it.
 
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Yekcidmij

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I've heard that the Magi may have been influenced by the writings/teachings/prophecies of Daniel.

I think a good case can be made for this.

Some people have suggested that it was Daniel who was given the revelation that Christ would be born under a star and that's how the Magi knew about it.


An interesting case can be made for this too. It's curious that around 135 AD Rabbi Akkiba thought Bar Kokhba was the Jewish messiah. Bar Kokhba means "son of the star" and was probably connected to this:


Gen 49:8 Judah, your brothers will praise you.
Your hand will be on the neck of your enemies,
your father’s sons will bow down before you.
49:9 You are a lion’s cub, Judah,
from the prey, my son, you have gone up.
He crouches and lies down like a lion;
like a lioness – who will rouse him?
49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he comes to whom it belongs;
the nations will obey him.
49:11 Binding his foal to the vine,
and his colt to the choicest vine,
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
49:12 His eyes will be dark from wine,
and his teeth white from milk.


Numbers24:15 Then he uttered this oracle:
“The oracle of Balaam son of Beor;
the oracle of the man whose eyes are open;
24:16 the oracle of the one who hears the words of God,
and who knows the knowledge of the Most High,
who sees a vision from the Almighty,
although falling flat on the ground with eyes open:
24:17 ‘I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not close at hand.
A star will march forth out of Jacob,
and a scepter will rise out of Israel.
He will crush the skulls of Moab,
and the heads of all the sons of Sheth.
24:18 Edom will be a possession,
Seir, his enemies, will also be a possession;
but Israel will act valiantly.
24:19 A ruler will be established from Jacob;
he will destroy the remains of the city.’”
 
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cyberlizard

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i think it is hard as we tend to associate people who interpret signs in the heavens with modern day astrologers, but it was not always so.

the earliest known depictions of the zodiacal signs are actually of hebrew origin and the 'meaning' associated with each sign was somewhat different to the interpretations offered by the pagan influences. There is a superb book entitled 'the gospel in the stars' which sets an exceptional case for this being so, spending ages discussing the 'mazaroth'.

The bodies in the heavens were not just given for seasons, but also for signs. We have thrown out this aspect to a very great degree because like jesus said, we do not understand the times they speak of. We have so allowed pagan interpretations of our understanding of the cosmos to detract from the 'heavens that declare the glory' that we no longer even venture down this path... maybe we think we will be decieved by 'the devil' or be led astray away from Christ, but the truth is, it is our attitude that needs to change, not the distinction between astronomy and astrology as that distinction is quite recent in the great scheme of things.

If anyone can find them, the late bible teacher Roger Price did an excellent series of studies on the 'wise men' but i am sure they will be difficult to get hold of now... but they were very good.


Steve
 
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lismore

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Do you think the Wise Men were pagan astrologers who followed astrological signs to find the "king of the Jews"?

And, if you do, what does that say about who and what God will use to accomplish His purposes?

Daniel was the chief of the Magi. The angel also gave Daniel a way to calculate the exact time the Messiah would be here! {Daniel chapter 9}. Maybe the 72 Magi were following the book of Daniel, who was one of their predecessors!
 
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lismore

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They sure were Pagans. CS Lewis has some interesting things to say about how God gave truth to pagans.

I doubt they were pagans. Remember Babylon had a large Jewish population at that time, settled there since the time of Daniel, who was chief of the wise men of Babylon. Why would pagans be interested in the King of the Jews?

CS Lewis also has some interesting things to say about salvation outside Jesus Christ, interesting but wrong!

God Bless You:)
 
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heron

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Daniel was the chief of the Magi.
Ooh, interesting factoid.

Latest in from the History Channel, the magi were magistrates.
Greek word magoi, transliterated from Persian, some show as priests.
They did study astrology, but made recommendations for who would be leaders!

Chuck Missler has an article with similar information:

The Priesthood of the Medes
The ancient Magi were a hereditary priesthood of the Medes (known today as the Kurds) credited with profound and extraordinary religious knowledge. After some Magi, who had been attached to the Median court, proved to be expert in the interpretation of dreams, Darius the Great established them over the state religion of Persia.
2 (Contrary to popular belief, the Magi were not originally followers of Zoroaster.3 That all came later.)
It was in this dual capacity, whereby civil and political counsel was invested with religious authority, that the Magi became the supreme priestly caste of the Persian empire and continued to be prominent during the subsequent Seleucid, Parthian, and Sasanian periods.
4


http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/142

...and he goes on to explain the Daniel connection. Information about the area's history continues to be unveiled.

One of the titles given to Daniel was Rab-mag, the Chief of the Magi.
5 His unusual career included being a principal administrator in two world empires-the Babylonian and the subsequent Persian Empire.

Since the days of Daniel, the fortunes of both the Persian and the Jewish nation had been closely intertwined.



It was at this time that the Magi, in their dual priestly and governmental office, composed the upper house of the Council of the Megistanes (from which we get the term "magistrates"), whose duties included the absolute choice and election of the king of the realm.


It was, therefore, a group of Persian-Parthian "king makers" who entered Jerusalem in the latter days of the reign of Herod. Herod's reaction was understandably one of fear when one considers the background of Roman-Parthian rivalry that prevailed during his lifetime.



The documentary writers dug up records of Herod being out of town when the magi started to arrive. The story seems much juicier to me now -- kingmakers arriving in town when the "king" was away in battle.

(Lismore, I am not pretending to have known about Daniel before... I just found this today.)



 
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nephilimiyr

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Do you think the Wise Men were pagan astrologers who followed astrological signs to find the "king of the Jews"?

Yes, and there is some truth in astrology, I used to believe in parts of it years ago. But whether something may really work or not is not the question. God forbids the practise of it and for good reason, it's controlled by evil.

And, if you do, what does that say about who and what God will use to accomplish His purposes?

Anything bad or evil God can turn it for good and or use it for good.
 
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nephilimiyr

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I've heard that the Magi may have been influenced by the writings/teachings/prophecies of Daniel.

It makes sense - Daniel was in Babylon and was a man of prominence especially with regard to prophecy.

Some people have suggested that it was Daniel who was given the revelation that Christ would be born under a star and that's how the Magi knew about it.

Good point, and the story of Esther clearly shows that the Babylonians did interact with the Jews rather well at times.
 
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Alpine

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Yes, and there is some truth in astrology, I used to believe in parts of it years ago. But whether something may really work or not is not the question. God forbids the practise of it and for good reason, it's controlled by evil.


The flaw in astrology is that they discover new planets/stars everyday.
 
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