Do you think it's Christian to own guns?

[Aldebaran]

nice try ..but you left out motive again ... if you bought the object with motive to use it to protect your life by taking someone else's life if that was what is required to protect self ..., then with that motive ,it is rather obviously not christian to own it .. -and god looks on the heart . he weighs the motive thereof

Look at the part of your post I underlined. If something is required, then it obviously wasn't done out of hatred, spite, revenge, or any other sinful motivation that we are told not to engage in.

Do you think self defense is ever the right thing to do if it may take the attacker's life? Or is it only ok for a person to defend themselves if the attacker isn't being violent enough to warrant that level of defense?

 

[supersoldier71]

nice try ..but you left out motive again ... if you bought the object with motive to use it to protect your life by taking someone else's life if that was what is required to protect self ..., then with that motive ,it is rather obviously not christian to own it .. -and god looks on the heart . he weighs the motive thereof

Actually yes, I prayerfully asked for guidance on how to protect my family and was led to arm myself and so far so good, thank you for asking.

What else ya' got?

 

[Alithis]

Look at the part of your post I underlined. If something is required, then it obviously wasn't done out of hatred, spite, revenge, or any other sinful motivation that we are told not to engage in.

Do you think self defense is ever the right thing to do if it may take the attacker's life? Or is it only ok for a person to defend themselves if the attacker isn't being violent enough to warrant that level of defense?

if you don't have faith in God's ability to protect you then the very act of purchasing the gun for the job was an act of fear ..not an act of faith . is it christ like to have no faith in God ?

 

[Alithis]

Actually yes, I prayerfully asked for guidance on how to protect my family and was led to arm myself and so far so good, thank you for asking.

What else ya' got?

great ,tell us about that .

 

[supersoldier71]

great ,tell us about that .

Just did. Are them some particulars that are of great concern to you?

I'm sure there are.

Your arguments are purely semantic and without basis in either faith or fact in that you have provided no Scriptural bases for your opinion, nor practical guidance other than repeating the mantra "not sin, but is it Christ-like?" which, in the absolute, most literal sense, you are asking, "is it God-like?" Which is a silly question. Beyond silly. It's insulting, because what you fail to acknowledge is that we are called to be like Christ's character. You are asking if I have Christ's power to exert my authority and will. Clearly, only Christ Himself has that power. You have failed at every turn to deliver any Scriptural backing for your opinion (which, unsupported by Scripture or evidence, it is, but just barely), and have chosen to launch ad hominem attacks on anyone who dares question your motives, logic or reasoning.

Because you are trolling.

I'm halfway 'round the world from home and find these threads entertaining mostly. But my sleep patterns are off and it's taken me this long to realize that there is no earthly way a living, thinking, reasoning child of God, fellow saint and member of the Body of Christ would behave in this way, nor continue to argue with so little (nothing) in the way of biblical guidance to buttress his arguments.

Because you are trolling.

I'd sensed something amiss, but rose to the argument. It's a failing that I'm working and praying to rectify. And I've now wasted days arguing with someone who refuses to see anyone else's point of view, despite the fact that I can, most certainly understand individuals who chose NOT to own firearms. I have failed to understand that the primary point of divergence in our opinions is NOT scriptural, factual or linguistic.

It's because you are trolling.

I shall not return to argue with a person without ears.

Because you, sir, are trolling.

G'night. As a proud American, you've convinced me to buy more guns and several thousand rounds of ammunition.

And I'm STILL a blood bought servant of the one true King!!!

 

[Alithis]

Just did. Are them some particulars that are of great concern to you?

I'm sure there are.

Your arguments are purely semantic and without basis in either faith or fact in that you have provided no Scriptural bases for your opinion, nor practical guidance other than repeating the mantra "not sin, but is it Christ-like?" which, in the absolute, most literal sense, you are asking, "is it God-like?" Which is a silly question. Beyond silly. It's insulting, because what you fail to acknowledge is that we are called to be like Christ's character. You are asking if I have Christ's power to exert my authority and will. Clearly, only Christ Himself has that power. You have failed at every turn to deliver any Scriptural backing for your opinion (which, unsupported by Scripture or evidence, it is, but just barely), and have chosen to launch ad hominem attacks on anyone who dares question your motives, logic or reasoning.

Because you are trolling.

I'm halfway 'round the world from home and find these threads entertaining mostly. But my sleep patterns are off and it's taken me this long to realize that there is no earthly way a living, thinking, reasoning child of God, fellow saint and member of the Body of Christ would behave in this way, nor continue to argue with so little (nothing) in the way of biblical guidance to buttress his arguments.

Because you are trolling.

I'd sensed something amiss, but rose to the argument. It's a failing that I'm working and praying to rectify. And I've now wasted days arguing with someone who refuses to see anyone else's point of view, despite the fact that I can, most certainly understand individuals who chose NOT to own firearms. I have failed to understand that the primary point of divergence in our opinions is NOT scriptural, factual or linguistic.

It's because you are trolling.

I shall not return to argue with a person without ears.

Because you, sir, are trolling.

G'night. As a proud American, you've convinced me to buy more guns and several thousand rounds of ammunition.

And I'm STILL a blood bought servant of the one true King!!!

firstly -the thread is not mine i did not start it
secondly ,if you which to maintain credibility then do as you say ..youve said numerous times thats all you have to say but you keep returning to say more so ..don't say your not going to say more and then say more .i didn't ask you to .(until now )
thirdly - tell us about how you prayed and how the lord told you to buy a gun to protect yourself .testify about that .
fourthly , most of your post is a rant attempting put me down .
but i don't mind .

i see your point of view no problem , i just cant reconcile it with the word of God.
with some "americans ..its america and "My rights..my pride first ..Gods will second 3rd or 10th .i mean look at your reactions here ... they speak loudly . your point of view does not appear to take god into consideration.

 

[Aldebaran]

if you don't have faith in God's ability to protect you then the very act of purchasing the gun for the job was an act of fear ..not an act of faith . is it christ like to have no faith in God ?

By your logic, then I don't have faith in God's ability to feed me because I go to the grocery store to buy food rather than letting God provide for me. I also must not have faith in God's ability to fix my furnace when it breaks down and to keep me warm in the winter because I call a service man (yes, a man instead of God) to fix it. I guess I also don't have faith in God to keep me out of a car accident due to having mechanical issues since I have a mechanic (yes, another man instead of God) check my car over to make sure there are no serious problems. Do you have an issue with these things?

 

[WOFFER]

Well, Jesus lived His life for an example for us to follow - would He have owned a gun?

Would Jesus drink a latte, wear a suit, drive a car, use the internet, have a cell phone, etc...

 

[Alithis]

By your logic, then I don't have faith in God's ability to feed me because I go to the grocery store to buy food rather than letting God provide for me. I also must not have faith in God's ability to fix my furnace when it breaks down and to keep me warm in the winter because I call a service man (yes, a man instead of God) to fix it. I guess I also don't have faith in God to keep me out of a car accident due to having mechanical issues since I have a mechanic (yes, another man instead of God) check my car over to make sure there are no serious problems. Do you have an issue with these things?

i don't speak of logic i speak of faith ..

go to the store to buy food if you need to .. but don't go to buy poison to kill someone who is mean to you
fix your car if you need to ,.... but don't fix it so you run over a man and kill him when he does you wrong
fix your furnace if you need to ,.... but don't fix it so you can blow it up and kill some one who is mean to you
own a gun for its purpose of a tool to hunt food ,if you must .....but don't buy it to kill a man who is mean to you .-forgive him . what do you need the gun for ?

you left out motive of the heart you see -God looks upon the heart

 

[Aldebaran]

i don't speak of logic i speak of faith ..

go to the store to buy food if you need to .. but don't go to buy poison to kill someone who is mean to you
fix your car if you need to ,.... but don't fix it so you run over a man and kill him when he does you wrong
fix your furnace if you need to ,.... but don't fix it so you can blow it up and kill some one who is mean to you
own a gun for its purpose of a tool to hunt food ,if you must .....but don't buy it to kill a man who is mean to you .-forgive him . what do you need the gun for ?

you left out motive of the heart you see -God looks upon the heart

Now it sounds like you're inferring that the only reason people own a gun is to shoot someone who was "mean to you". Is that what I, or anyone else, has been suggesting? Self defense isn't done because someone was "mean". It is done when they are trying to kill you. Is that mean? I'm sure you'll say it is. But being "mean" usually is in reference to calling someone a name they don't like, or cutting them off in traffic, or providing bad customer service. That's very much different than if someone breaks into my home and tries to shoot or stab me so they can eliminate the only witness to their crime, or maybe as a gang initiation ritual, or because they didn't want to go back to prison again, or whatever other reason they come up with. If you don't think that's a good enough reason to defend yourself or your family, then have at it. Just remember that if a person is willing to break into your home and kill you in order to eliminate you as a witness, they are quite likely to be willing to do the same thing to their next victim. Are you willing to die and allow the perpetrator to continue killing people? If so, then it's up to his next victim to decide whether or not self defense is ever justified.

You talk about going to the store to buy food if I "need to". So, when do you determine what a "need" is? Is it enough to be hungry, or just want to get a snack, or do I have to be on the verge of death before I "need" to buy food? But you apparently think a gun is not needed even if someone is trying to kill me and I could stop them by use of the gun. So you're not consistent when you talk about need.

Now, about your last comment about God looking at the motive of the heart. Isn't that the case I've been making all along? Self defense is the motive I've been referring to. You make it sound as if I'm talking about revenge against someone for being "mean" to me. The motive of my heart is to not be murdered by an assailant. I hope that's ok by you.

 

[Alithis]

Now it sounds like you're inferring that the only reason people own a gun is to shoot someone who was "mean to you". Is that what I, or anyone else, has been suggesting? Self defense isn't done because someone was "mean". It is done when they are trying to kill you. Is that mean? I'm sure you'll say it is. But being "mean" usually is in reference to calling someone a name they don't like, or cutting them off in traffic, or providing bad customer service. That's very much different than if someone breaks into my home and tries to shoot or stab me so they can eliminate the only witness to their crime, or maybe as a gang initiation ritual, or whatever other reason they come up with. If you don't think that's a good enough reason to defend yourself or your family, then have at it.

ouhh so you only bought it to hunt with ? or look at it and admire t (idolatry ? )
i thought you bought it to protect yourself with .??.. which means when a person comes to do you harm (be mean to you) you can point it at them and even kill them .hmm

..but any way the rest of your post displays what i said earlier .. you purchased it due to not yet being able to trust God to protect you . God is able to hide you in the shadow of his wings .. since he is light the shadow of his wings is a place so bright that the enemy cannot see you there .

if God has said" those who are to die by the sword will die by the sword "( reference to "here is the patience of the saints ") then the gun wont help you - we trust god with our lives -he knows best .

 

[Aldebaran]

ouhh so you only bought it to hunt with ? or look at it and admire t (idolatry ? )
i thought you bought it to protect yourself with .??.. which means when a person comes to do you harm (be mean to you) you can point it at them and even kill them .hmm

There's no need to be condescending. I thought you wanted a civil discussion here, and that's what I'm trying to do.

It sounds like murder is simply seen (by you) as being mean to people. I showed you how it's different, but you ignored that. I can't help you in that case.

..but any way the rest of your post displays what i said earlier .. you purchased it due to not yet being able to trust God to protect you . God is able to hide you in the shadow of his wings .. since he is light the shadow of his wings is a place so bright that the enemy cannot see you there .

If this means we don't do anything for ourselves to protect ourselves, then it would mean God has failed when we have to defend ourselves. Is that what you believe? Jesus said not to worry about what we're going to eat or what we're going to wear. So why should we go to the grocery store? Isn't that like saying we don't have faith in God to provide for us, and that we instead rely on money (mammon) to acquire the things God knows we need and said He would provide? That's the type of reasoning you're using.

if God has said" those who are to die by the sword will die by the sword "( reference to "here is the patience of the saints ") then the gun wont help you - we trust god with our lives -he knows best .

Then if someone breaks into my house and kills me even though I was armed, then there would be no way possible for me to defend myself? Is that what you're saying? It sure flies in the face of all the times people have in fact used a firearm in self defense. Or, are you saying that if I actually do successfully defend myself, I have somehow survived outside the will of God and am alive even though God wanted me to die? In that case, the sword would be mightier than God Himself if it allows me to thwart God's plan for my life!

 

[Alithis]

There's no need to be condescending. I thought you wanted a civil discussion here, and that's what I'm trying to do.

It sounds like murder is simply seen (by you) as being mean to people. I showed you how it's different, but you ignored that. I can't help you in that case-well it aint being kind to folks .



If this means we don't do anything for ourselves to protect ourselves, then it would mean God has failed when we have to defend ourselves. Is that what you believe? Jesus said not to worry about what we're going to eat or what we're going to wear. So why should we go to the grocery store? Isn't that like saying we don't have faith in God to provide for us, and that we instead rely on money (mammon) to acquire the things God knows we need and said He would provide? That's the type of reasoning you're using.- nahh your just distracting from the topic at hand . the lord says "i send you out as sheep among wolves " i missed the verse that says ,"so buy a gun to protect yourself "
and he did say not to worry about what we eat or ear .. so .. we need to start obeying him-methinks this is why we do not see the power of the kingdom.. we say we believe it but act like we don't . .


Then if someone breaks into my house and kills me even though I was armed, then there would be no way possible for me to defend myself? Is that what you're saying? It sure flies in the face of all the times people have in fact used a firearm in self defense. Or, are you saying that if I actually do successfully defend myself, I have somehow survived outside the will of God and am alive even though God wanted me to die? In that case, the sword would be mightier than God Himself if it allows me to thwart God's plan for my life!-- so arming yourself is shown to be futile by your own example -but trusting God is NEVER futile . you cant use the examplpes of fleshly actions and anul the word of God - sorry it doesn't work like that .

-replies inserted

 

[Aldebaran]

-replies inserted

Your replies weren't much of a reply at all. They were mostly irrelevant comments that didn't even answer the questions I was asking you. So I'll try one more time. If you were to wake up one night and hear screaming, and then you walk into a room and find a couple of thugs raping (I guess that's just being "mean") your wife or daughter, what would you do? Would you simply tell the thugs to quit being so mean?

Better yet, let me give you a view of something that happened to someone. A guy and his wife pull into their garage. A group of armed thugs were hiding outside waiting for the couple to return home. As the garage door was closing, they forced it back open and then proceeded inside the garage and attacked the driver and his wife as they were getting out of their car. In your words, they were being "mean". So what should the driver do? Should he defend himself and his wife? Here's a video of the incident. I'm sure you won't like the outcome. The driver and his wife survived the encounter.

 

[Alithis]

,,

 

[Alithis]

in the past when i used a similar example the person just got angry at me for saying awful things .. they could not see that it was an analogy ,not personal.
i don't have a problem with that .its just an example .

firstly to enter the house they have to see the house .. people who do things like that are being influenced by the demonic realm and the demonic realm doesnt see to well in bright light .
then they have to get past the angels of the lord and can only do so if God has so allowed that for a greater reason.

all that aside .. what do we do ? we rebuke the demons in the name of Jesus .

here is an example also of that at work.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1038151512873313

 

[Aldebaran]

in the past when i used a similar example the person just got angry at me for saying awful things .. they could not see that it was an analogy ,not personal.
i don't have a problem with that .its just an example .

firstly to enter the house they have to see the house .. people who do things like that are being influenced by the demonic realm and the demonic realm doesnt see to well in bright light .
then they have to get past the angels of the lord and can only do so if God has so allowed that for a greater reason.

all that aside .. what do we do ? we rebuke the demons in the name of Jesus .

here is an example also of that at work.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1038151512873313

It sure would be nice if you would simply answer what I asked you. Why can't you do that?

In contrast to what you're doing, I will address your post.
I watched your video, and don't speak spanish so I didn't understand a word that was said about it. From what I saw of it, it is apparent that things like that can take place, but it isn't the norm. Take for instance the time when someone sat through a bible study at a black church, and then shot everyone afterwards. From what you're saying, there was a demonic influence there. Did God fail in protecting the other church members, including the pastor? Even more to the point, how about all those Christian churches in the Middle East that are being burned down, and the people attending having their head sawed off? There are some churches that are being protected by armed groups, and they are faring better. Is that wrong to you, simply because of how guns are being used effectively for protection? Remember, those people are now alive. That should play some important part of how you see it.

Now, I'm going to ask you something and would appreciate it if you would answer instead of ignoring what I ask you. Should the driver of the car in the video I posted have just started calling on the name of Jesus when the guy with the gun approached his car as he and his wife were about to get out? Does it look like he had time to do that? Do you think this guy is going to be looked down on by Jesus for defending himself and his wife?

Another thing to consider is it's not only demons that might cause someone to do something evil. A person's own flesh has more influence upon a person than anything outside of him. If a person is acting upon the desires of his own flesh rather than demons, then attempting to cast out demons while he rapes your wife is not going to do a whole lot of good.

 

[Alithis]

It sure would be nice if you would simply answer what I asked you. Why can't you do that?

In contrast to what you're doing, I will address your post.
I watched your video, and don't speak spanish so I didn't understand a word that was said about it. From what I saw of it, it is apparent that things like that can take place, but it isn't the norm. Take for instance the time when someone sat through a bible study at a black church, and then shot everyone afterwards. From what you're saying, there was a demonic influence there. Did God fail in protecting the other church members, including the pastor? Even more to the point, how about all those Christian churches in the Middle East that are being burned down, and the people attending having their head sawed off? There are some churches that are being protected by armed groups, and they are faring better. Is that wrong to you, simply because of how guns are being used effectively for protection? Remember, those people are now alive. That should play some important part of how you see it.

Now, I'm going to ask you something and would appreciate it if you would answer instead of ignoring what I ask you. Should the driver of the car in the video I posted have just started calling on the name of Jesus when the guy with the gun approached his car as he and his wife were about to get out? Does it look like he had time to do that? Do you think this guy is going to be looked down on by Jesus for defending himself and his wife?

Another thing to consider is it's not only demons that might cause someone to do something evil. A person's own flesh has more influence upon a person than anything outside of him. If a person is acting upon the desires of his own flesh rather than demons, then attempting to cast out demons while he rapes your wife is not going to do a whole lot of good.

i did answer you ..i said? i would rebuke the demon ." if you're referring to what would i do in that situation "

situations where people break in to folks houses are also NOT the norm .. in all the years of your life how often had it happened to you ? see it may happen many times but it is not the norm .
why did God not protect other congregations from gun men ? that is a question for god to answer but often it comes down to the same reason when those who were not truly born of god tried to cast out demons ..the same demon that feared Paul , fell on those men and sent them running bruised and battered . no real truth in the heart ,equals no spiritual authority .

Should the driver of the car in the video I posted have just started calling on the name of Jesus when the guy with the gun approached his car as he and his wife were about to get out? Does it look like he had time to do that? Do you think this guy is going to be looked down on by Jesus for defending himself and his wife?

- absolutely YES .. he should have called on the lord JEsus . why would ANY believer say or even suggest anything else ? does God now not exist ? ,is his hand too short to save ? did he suddenly become weak ? whoever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved .. and he has also said .. those who are to die by the sword will die by the sword and those who are to go into captivity wil go into captivity -we trust GOD ,never the arm of the flesh .

what of it if these people called on the lord and were then slain ? the lord wil greet them and say well done god and faithful servant -because faith pleases God
did he not Also say if you seek to save your life you will lose it but if you lose it for my name sake you shall save it ..? was he joking ? do these words no longer mean what they mean . ?

in the days of acts in jerusalem the holy spirit warned them all to flee the city in advance .. most did -those that did not got killed ..but they did so because they did not listen to the Spirit of God . could well be the case in the middle east . who knows but God .
just becaseu a person attends a church does not mean they are born of God .. not by any stretch of the imagination .

 

[Aldebaran]

situations where people break in to folks houses are also NOT the norm .. in all the years of your life how often had it happened to you ? see it may happen many times but it is not the norm .

Of course it's not "the norm". It's not normal for a person to have a fire burn his house down either. It doesn't matter if it's not the norm. Planning for the abnormal is often needed. If it wasn't, then life would be normal all the time. Don't you ever have things happen in life that don't normally happen?

why did God not protect other congregations from gun men ? that is a question for god to answer but often it comes down to the same reason when those who were not truly born of god tried to cast out demons ..the same demon that feared Paul , fell on those men and sent them running bruised and battered . no real truth in the heart ,equals no spiritual authority .

Sounds like you're implying that the people in that church got shot by the gunmen because of something you could blame on them.

- absolutely YES .. he should have called on the lord JEsus . why would ANY believer say or even suggest anything else ? does God now not exist ? ,is his hand too short to save ? did he suddenly become weak ? whoever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved .. and he has also said .. those who are to die by the sword will die by the sword and those who are to go into captivity wil go into captivity -we trust GOD ,never the arm of the flesh .

The passages you are referring to about "whoever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved" is referring to our soul. Read the original passage to see the context of it.

what of it if these people called on the lord and were then slain ? the lord wil greet them and say well done god and faithful servant -because faith pleases God

You just got done quoting to me, "whoever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved". Now you're saying it could also mean, "whoever calls on the name of the lord may be slain". So which way is it? You seem to want it both ways.

in the days of acts in jerusalem the holy spirit warned them all to flee the city in advance .. most did -those that did not got killed ..but they did so because they did not listen to the Spirit of God . could well be the case in the middle east . who knows but God .
just becaseu a person attends a church does not mean they are born of God .. not by any stretch of the imagination .

Yes, and in the days after the Exodus, God commanded the Jews to pick up swords and conquer their enemies. It doesn't mean that they relied on the sword to give them victory, but they were doing their part, while God did His part.

 

[Alithis]

Of course it's not "the norm". It's not normal for a person to have a fire burn his house down either. It doesn't matter if it's not the norm. Planning for the abnormal is often needed. If it wasn't, then life would be normal all the time. Don't you ever have things happen in life that don't normally happen?



Sounds like you're implying that the people in that church got shot by the gunmen because of something you could blame on them.




The passages you are referring to about "whoever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved" is referring to our soul. Read the original passage to see the context of it.



You just got done quoting to me, "whoever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved". Now you're saying it could also mean, "whoever calls on the name of the lord may be slain". So which way is it? You seem to want it both ways.



Yes, and in the days after the Exodus, God commanded the Jews to pick up swords and conquer their enemies. It doesn't mean that they relied on the sword to give them victory, but they were doing their part, while God did His part.

Who ever calls on the name of the lord will be saved..
Does not only mean saved in this life...
For though he die..yet he will live.
There are those that seek to save thier life...and yet will lose it eternally...
Faith ..need not be concerned.