Do You Think Canada Should Honor Quebec's Choice if it Decides to Secede?

[draper]

Quebec is not going anywhere. Regardless of what the BQ & PQ have claimed before the previous referenda, it is completely absurd to suggest that Quebec would need only a 50 % + 1 majority to seperate...in practise, they would need an exceptional mandate to seperate...I would guess somewhere in the high 50's or 60's, which they are not going to get under any circumstances.

An influential former-separist (his name escapes me) once said, [paraphrased] "After the BQ were elected Official Opposition, I thought to myself, a 'Wow, a democracy in which a party hellbent on destroying the democracy itself can be elected Official Opposition is definitely a democracy worth saving." I would agree.

I'm not sure if Illuminatus is right in saying that support for federalism is at an all-time high in Quebec...from what I have read it is actually around the same numbers as it was at during the '95 campaign, give or take a bit either way. But, regardless of that, if push were to come to shove, I just don't think Quebec would vote to seperate.

IF Quebec were to seperate, Canadian has quite a few cards they can play. Many Quebeckers that would vote 'yes' on Quebec soverignity only do so with the assumption that they would still enjoy the benefits of Canadian citizenship...and once Quebec agrees to seperate, that essentially becomes a question for the Canadian Parliament -- do we want some 6 million (or is it more like 9 or 10) non-citizens of Canada [Quebeckers] to enjoy the benefits of Canadian citizenship without making any financial contributions to the Canadian government?

If they're willing to go that route, then they could use citizenship as a major bargaining tool in dividing the debt and other assets - if they wanted to be hard-nosed, they could simply say that citizens of an independent Quebec would not enjoy the benefits of Canadian citizenship. Personally, I would only support parties that took that stand -- I will play hardball with Quebeckers any day to save Canada.

A similiar bargaining tool also exists in the use of Canadian currency, as well.

Remember that before the '95 referedum, a LOT of major Montreal/Quebec city multinationals packed up for Toronto or elsewhere in Canada, and a lto of Quebeckers lost jobs over that (as well as the Quebec economy losing a lot of money overall), and that component of seperation makes enough people uneasy enough to stay within the federation.

If they do however choose to seperate, should we respect it? Maybe. We have a moral and legal obligation to look after the rights of Quebec aboriginals, they voted some 95 % + in the last referedum in favour of staying in Canada as far as I know.

But, I strongly believe that Canada is worth fighting for, and I think letting Quebec go would have to be a last, last, last resort type of thing.

 

[Illuminatus]

I'm not sure if Illuminatus is right in saying that support for federalism is at an all-time high in Quebec...from what I have read it is actually around the same numbers as it was at during the '95 campaign, give or take a bit either way. But, regardless of that, if push were to come to shove, I just don't think Quebec would vote to seperate.

As I remember, the article I read was either in the Toronto Star, or WLU's campus newspaper. I'm pretty sure it was the Star, and no farther back than the last two weeks. If someone has a bunch of old papers, they should flip through them.

IF Quebec were to seperate, Canadian has quite a few cards they can play. Many Quebeckers that would vote 'yes' on Quebec soverignity only do so with the assumption that they would still enjoy the benefits of Canadian citizenship...and once Quebec agrees to seperate, that essentially becomes a question for the Canadian Parliament -- do we want some 6 million (or is it more like 9 or 10) non-citizens of Canada [Quebeckers] to enjoy the benefits of Canadian citizenship without making any financial contributions to the Canadian government?

If they're willing to go that route, then they could use citizenship as a major bargaining tool in dividing the debt and other assets - if they wanted to be hard-nosed, they could simply say that citizens of an independent Quebec would not enjoy the benefits of Canadian citizenship. Personally, I would only support parties that took that stand -- I will play hardball with Quebeckers any day to save Canada.

That was a large part of the secessionist platform in 1995, IIRC. I highly doubt we'd let them keep Canadian citizenship, or use Canadian currency.

Also, if Quebec were to separate, they would be asked to assume $33B as their share of the national debt.

Quite frankly, I don't worry about another referendum. Lucien Bouchard has said that remaining part of Canada is more beneficial to Quebec than separation. If Bouchard will finally admit that, the heart of the separatist movement is gone.

 

[Illuminatus]

Coincidentally, there's a CBC special on at 8pm tonight about the 1995 referendum.

http://www.cbc.ca/programguide/program/index.jsp?program=Breaking+Point

 

[Jonathan David]

Out of curiosity, when we are "fighting for Canada," what does that actually mean? Anyone care to elaborate?

 

[draper]

Out of curiosity, when we are "fighting for Canada," what does that actually mean? Anyone care to elaborate?

When are we fighting for Canada?

When we debate separists, when Quebeckers vote they are fighting for Canada (the federalists of course), if there were a slim yes vote, recognizing that 50 % + 1 is not a mandate for seperation and arguing accordingly...

I think the big thing, where the "fight" would really take place would be negociations.

If I were representing Canada in negociations, I wouldn't give them ANYTHING. Nothing. (this is seperation negociations I am referring to btw, assuming there was hypothetically a vote to seperate)...frankly, I would be willing to cross ethical lines in terms of forcing them to take more than their fair share of the national debt (you can force them by holding citizenship and currency use over their heads)...etc etc. Play hardball with them.

 

[JPPT1974]

I think it would be hard for the United States to stay mum if there is a civil war going on north of the 49th parallel, especially if that civil war means that terrorists can slip in from the Canadian border into the United States easier.

The USA never stays mum and tries to fix things. Unlike other countries, with all due respect, that don't even want to get involve. I mean this is people's freedom and liberty at stake here.

 

[draper]

The USA never stays mum and tries to fix things. Unlike other countries, with all due respect, that don't even want to get involve. I mean this is people's freedom and liberty at stake here.

Are you inferring that the US, ahh, has any right whatsoever to say anything about Quebec separism?

 

[selfintercession]

The USA never stays mum and tries to fix things. Unlike other countries, with all due respect, that don't even want to get involve. I mean this is people's freedom and liberty at stake here.

Are you saying that the US should intervene if we were to refuse to allow them to leave us? What about the American stance on Taiwan? You guys don't seem to be too eager to go in and help them acquire their freedom and liberty from the oppression of the Chinese government...

Anyway, on a --slightly-- less controversial note, I think that we need to start taking the grievances of the people of Québec a lot more seriously than we do right now. But if they were to vote to seceed from us in the future, then no. We should not allow them to leave. Québec belongs to all Canadians just as Ontario or BC or Nunavut belongs partially to the people of Québec as well. It should be a Canada-wide referendum, not just a Québec-wide one that decides who should stay and who should leave.

 

[CCGirl]

It should be a Canada-wide referendum, not just a Québec-wide one that decides who should stay and who should leave

Agreed!