Do we have to pray for signs and wonders?

[ByTheSpirit]

So I read a story this morning about a 5 yr old girl who recently died from the flu. Very heart breaking, as all the other cases are. Especially in this time where medicine is supposed to be able to heal stuff like that. Anyways...

It got me praying and I was beginning to ask God to increase signs and wonders to confirm his word when a thought came to mind. I don't think there is a single instance in scripture where we are told to specifically pray for such things. The thought went along like this: It is God's responsibility to confirm his word, it is our responsibility to expect such confirmations and perform them through laying on of hands, etc.

So the question is, are we to pray for signs and wonders or should we just do them and expect God to perform? Now of course I know praying for such things isn't unscriptural, but we also are to pray according to God's will if we expect answers (1 John 5:14-15), so is it God's will that we pray for signs, wonders, healings, etc. Or is it God's will that we have faith enough to perform them and be open to them?

 

[Optimax]

Consider that one of the 'keys" you are seeking is revealed in this verse.

Notice what the Lord confirmed.

Did He confirm the Apostles?

No.

He confirmed the word with signs following.

Mark 16:20
And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. KJV

1st key.

Preach the word.

there are other "keys".

 

[ToBeBlessed]

So I read a story this morning about a 5 yr old girl who recently died from the flu. Very heart breaking, as all the other cases are. Especially in this time where medicine is supposed to be able to heal stuff like that. Anyways...

It got me praying and I was beginning to ask God to increase signs and wonders to confirm his word when a thought came to mind. I don't think there is a single instance in scripture where we are told to specifically pray for such things. The thought went along like this: It is God's responsibility to confirm his word, it is our responsibility to expect such confirmations and perform them through laying on of hands, etc.

So the question is, are we to pray for signs and wonders or should we just do them and expect God to perform? Now of course I know praying for such things isn't unscriptural, but we also are to pray according to God's will if we expect answers (1 John 5:14-15), so is it God's will that we pray for signs, wonders, healings, etc. Or is it God's will that we have faith enough to perform them and be open to them?

..

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well scriptures state God used them to confirm his word in several locations, so if God thought enough o them to display them, then we should too. The devil uses God's Word in temptation so should we likewise stop using God's Word?

I got it that some here are semi-cessasionist, but this is not a thread to promote such stuff.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Well scriptures state God used them to confirm his word in several locations, so if God thought enough o them to display them, then we should too. The devil uses God's Word in temptation so should we likewise stop using God's Word?

I got it that some here are semi-cessasionist, but this is not a thread to promote such stuff.

Got ya. Sorry, not trying to ruin your thread, wasn't promoting, only asking. Carry on....

 

[hislegacy]

So the question is, are we to pray for signs and wonders or should we just do them and expect God to perform? Now of course I know praying for such things isn't unscriptural, but we also are to pray according to God's will if we expect answers (1 John 5:14-15), so is it God's will that we pray for signs, wonders, healings, etc. Or is it God's will that we have faith enough to perform them and be open to them?

Here is your answer:


23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

‘Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’
27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

 

[Biblicist]

So the question is, are we to pray for signs and wonders . .

From a Pentecostal perspective I would say absolutely not!

Now that undoubtedly would have grabbed your attention but “signs and wonders” are not something that we should be looking for as they are not the same as the 8 Congregational Offices (1Co 12:28) or with the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11).

Now that I’ve thrown in a wet blanket, let me save the day (and my neck) by saying that every healthy Pentecostal and charismatic congregation should be ensuring that we adhere to 1Co 12:28, where we are told that the Father has established within (ideally) every local congregation the two Offices of Powers and Healings.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church. . .

• Apostles
• Prophets
• Teachers
• Powers (aka, miracles)
• Healings
• Administrations
• Helps
• Tongues

For those who are bedridden or who have a life threatening debilitation, James tells us in James 5:14

"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord";​

Ideally, even though we all too often have a single paid individual within our congregations who many go to, we are supposed to be ensuring that we have a solid base of Elders where we should find a number if not all of the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit amongst them:

1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

• Wisdom
• Knowledge
• Faith
• Healings
• Powers
• Prophecy
• Discernment
• Tongues
• Interpretation/articulation

So when someone has an immediate need for healing or for a new initiate who has not yet received the Holy Spirit there could be a need for demonic deliverance. If we can approach the elders then this should place us within a framework where the Spirit is able to address the issue through one Elder maybe providing a word of knowledge or discernment where subsequently another Elder may be able to minister to the individual through the Spirit in either healings or in some cases with powers.

Or is it God's will that we have faith enough to perform them and be open to them?

It could be that if we have faith to ensure that these Offices are fully functioning in our congregations then we will then undoubtedly see more of the power of God in our midst.

 

[geetrue]

A lot of people in Seattle area were praying this last Sunday for a miracle.

Seattle Seahawks down 16-7 against a better team the Green Bay Packers and then the answers to prayer came with signs and wonders to win the game in overtime 28-22 after an incredible forth quarter rally like has never been seen before in the NFL NFC playoffs.

As for testing God in asking for signs and wonders I would think you would be on the wrong course ... God has to get all of the glory.

Remember when the devil tempted Jesus after he had fasted for 40 days with the words: St Matthew 4: 5-7 NCV

Then the devil led Jesus to the holy city of Jerusalem and put him on a high place of the Temple.
The devil said, “If you are the Son of God, jump down, because it is written in the Scriptures:
‘He has put his angels in charge of you.
They will catch you in their hands
so that you will not hit your foot on a rock.’

Jesus answered him, “It also says in the Scriptures, ‘Do not test the Lord your God.’”



In other words Jesus said thou shalt not test the Lord thy God. Asking for signs and wonders shows lack of faith.

but here is one King that got away with it: 2 Kings 20: 8-11

And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, “What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the LORD on the third day?” And Isaiah said, “This is the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he has promised: shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or go back ten steps?” And Hezekiah answered, “It is an easy thing for the shadow to lengthen ten steps; rather let the shadow go back ten steps.” And Isaiah the prophet cried to the LORD; and he brought the shadow back ten steps, by which the sun had declined on the dial of Ahaz.

The Revised Standard Version. (1971). (2 Ki 20:8–11)

 

[Biblicist]

As for testing God in asking for signs and wonders I would think you would be on the wrong course ... God has to get all of the glory.

“Again it is written, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’”
In other words Jesus said thou shalt not test the Lord thy God. Asking for signs and wonders shows lack of faith.

You may be able to notice that you have created a bit of a conundrum where you first pointed out that I was wrong with regard to seeking signs and wonders, where you then pointed out that to seek these signs and wonder was in fact evil.

One of the dilemmas we encounter with the question of "signs and wonders" is that we all encounter an incredible amount of populist material and banner advertising regarding how we are supposed to be a people who are to seek after signs and wonders, just look at the old Wimber meetings that proudly (though foolishly) declared themselves to be "Signs and Wonders" meetings - it is simply bad theology.

When we righfully seek after healings or even powers (aka, miracles) this is a legitimate exercise on our part and even an entitlement, but they are still things that are distinct from "signs and wonders".

but here is one King that got away with it: 2 Kings 20: 8-11

8[bless and do not curse]Hezekiah had asked Isaiah, “What will be the sign that the LORD will heal me and that I will go up to the Temple of the LORD on the third day?”
9[bless and do not curse]Isaiah said, “The LORD will do what he says. This is the sign from the LORD to show you: Do you want the shadow to go forward ten steps or back ten steps?”
10[bless and do not curse]Hezekiah answered, “It’s easy for the shadow to go forward ten steps. Instead, let it go back ten steps.”
11[bless and do not curse]Then Isaiah the prophet called to the LORD, and the LORD brought the shadow ten steps back up the stairway of Ahaz that it had gone down.

One of the traps that we can fall into when quoting the Old Testament is that Israel was working under a vastly different framework; unlike the Church of the NT they did not have the 8 Congregational Offices (1Co 12:28) in operation nor did the rank-and-file Jew operate in the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11) as we do.

 

[hislegacy]

Here is your answer:

Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

‘Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”​

I guess if you are out getting people saved, healed and delivered, it's ok to pray as they did for the Apostles.

If you don't do any outreach - why would you need it?

 

[Biblicist]

Here is your answer:

Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

‘Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”​

I guess if you are out getting people saved, healed and delivered, it's ok to pray as they did for the Apostles.

If you don't do any outreach - why would you need it?

Thank you, you've addressed a point that I should have raised earlier.

'Signs and Wonders' are certainly valid for Apostolic ministry which is why Peter prayed the way that he did. The author of Hebrews said it very well in Heb 2:3,4 when he spoke of the earlier ministry of the Apostolic wittnesses:

"how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will".​

The writer of Hebrews referred not only to "signs and wonders" but also to the "distributions of the Holy Spirit" such as with those found in 1Co 12:7-11.

 

[tturt]

I Cor 14:1 "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."

So we're told to desire spiritual gifts especially to prophesy. Why would be told to desire the gifts and then not expect His signs and wonders.

Yes, they're because of Him.

Paul wrote " And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." I Cor. 2

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did." John 2:23

By seeing signs and wonders, people become more aware of Yahweh and His nature.

Some are criticized for talking about signs and wonders when not talking about what Yahweh has done results in "a stubborn and rebellious generation" (Psa 78) and changed the direction of nations (Exo 1:8 - ) - just 2 examples.

Some are said to be chasing after signs and wonders, when most of the time, they're drawn to Him and they want to see Him/His power/His glory. Proximity can matter because Peter's shadow healed (Acts 5) and Paul's handkerchiefs or aprons healed (Acts 19). Of course, it was Yahweh.

Even the nations around Israel saw the presence and glory of Yahweh.

Matt 10 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

 

[FoundInGrace]

If people are sharing the gospel then its up to God isnt it ("His own will") whether He performs signs and wonders or not.
Stuff will happen when theres a clash of 'kingdoms' anyway I personally dont think we need to push it.

 

[Alithis]

folks through out the bible payed for "a sign " and often the signs were wonders ..

i think maybe the error is seeking signs for the wonders sake ..

in the bible they sought signs for some serious reasons ,when they had rightful genuine cause to do so ..

it is as" bythespirt" mentioned ..to Gods glory for HIS purposes that we would ask ,never for the sake of wondering at them .

 

[Biblicist]

I Cor 14:1 "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."

So we're told to desire spiritual gifts especially to prophesy. Why would be told to desire the gifts and then not expect signs and wonders - because of Him.

As I've mentioned, we should certainly be endeavouring to see that our congregations are mature where they are able to incorporate the 8 Congregational Offices (1Cor 12:28) but these are simply not 'signs and wonders'.

Paul wrote " And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." I Cor. 2

Yes, as we are talking about the pre-eminent Apostle Paul, then we should expect that the Apostles (particularly with Paul) that they would be working in Signs and Wonders. But even Paul did not always work within the framework of Signs and Wonders but within the same Distributions of the Holy Spirit as we do.

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did." John 2:23

By seeing signs and wonders, people become more aware of Yahweh and His nature.

Well, I would expect to see the Son of God operating within the framework of Signs and Wonders but that's Jesus and not us.

Some are criticized for talking about signs and wonders when not talking about what Yahweh has done results in "a stubborn and rebellious generation" (Psa 78) and changed the direction of nations (Exo 1:8 - ) - just 2 examples.

Some are said to be chasing after signs and wonders, when most of the time, they're drawn to Him and they want to see Him/His power/His glory. Proximity can matter because Peter's shadow healed (Acts 5) and Paul's handkerchiefs or aprons healed (Acts 19). Of course, it was Yahweh.

Even the nations around Israel saw the presence and glory of Yahweh.

Matt 10 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

And what was Jesus' response to the unbelief of Thomas, where Jesus said "

John 20:29 "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."​

The problem that so many of have is that we have been indoctrinated with a lot of populist well-meaning teachings that tell us that the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11) are supposed to be Signs and Wonders. This false teaching has allowed many well intended people to run off the road by "claiming" ridiculous things because they think that they can essentially 'blab and grab" whatever they want under the banner of "Signs and Wonders".

With my four years on this forum I seem to be the only one who emphasises that the Full Gospel model for ministry is with the establishment of these 8 Congregational Offices and where every single member should be open to operating within the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit.

From my perspective - it seems that the vast majority of the Pentecostal church are stuck in a time-warp that is only a few years past the primitive ministry of Asuza Street; from what I can observe, I appear to be the only person on this forum that places any emphasis on 1 Cor 12.

 

[tturt]

Everything Yahweh does is for a reason. Spiritual gifts are from The Holy Spirit and they are for us to serve and can result in signs and wonders.

Acts 9 v33 "And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda. And there he found a certain man named Aeneas, which had kept his bed eight years, and was sick of the palsy. And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately. And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord."

Another result was it caused ALL in that area to turn to The Lord.

v40 "But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord."

Another result was it caused many to believe on The Lord.

"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Matt 10:8 Most believers don't believe based on my observations.

I believe I Cor 12 but I have a problem with the snake part of "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16

From my perspective it's why do we want to see signs and wonders? When comparing Matt 16:4 and I Cor 2:4, I believe it depends on the intents of our hearts. But know that Yahweh can do what He wants.

 

[tturt]

They prayed for signs and wonders (as Simply Put posted earlier). Of course, they sure focused on The Source.

prayer begins v 24 -

"By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

"And when they had prayed..." Acts 4:30-31

 

[Biblicist]

Everything Yahweh does is for a reason. Spiritual gifts are from The Holy Spirit and they are for us to serve and can result in signs and wonders.

Acts 9 v33 "And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda. And there he found a certain man named Aeneas, which had kept his bed eight years, and was sick of the palsy. And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately. And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord."

Another result was it caused ALL in that area to turn to The Lord.

v40 "But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord."

Another result was it caused many to believe on The Lord.

That's right, this is why the Apostles frequently operated within 'signs and wonders' as they were a powerful way of not only confirming the Apostles ministry/authority but it also permitted them (and others) to work outside of the framework of the Church, as per 1Cor 12:28; which admittedly was still in its fledgling stage.

"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Matt 10:8 Most believers don't believe based on my observations.

The problem with this text is that it only applied to the 12 disciples for a specific situation and a very limited time span. If this passage were to apply to us today then I would have to say that we are all miserable failures as none of us operate in this manner or even come close to it.

I believe I Cor 12 but I have a problem with the snake part of "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16

From my perspective it's why do we want to see signs and wonders? When comparing Matt 16:4 and I Cor 2:4, I believe it depends on the intents of our hearts. But know that Yahweh can do what He wants.

With reference to snakes, we see this working with Paul when he was bitten by a snake and over the years I (we) have heard of many similar testimonies. This does not mean that we can go down the silly pathway of the US snake handlers as it simply says that in specific circumstances that the Lord will intervene.

As for tongues, it does not mean that everyone will speak in tongues but tongues will be an indicator of the presence of the Holy Spirit within the community.

As for 1Co 2:4, Paul is applying this to himself as his role is certainly critical to the development of the fledgling Church where he wants to see it grow fully in the Spirit. Paul is the quintessential theologian who takes his theology very seriously, but more important to him is with his desire to see each Christian exhibiting the power of the Holy Spirit as per 1Co 12:7-11.

"Signs and wonders" are certainly marvellous things but they are definitely not something that we should be fussing over nor should we be seeking them. If any of us find ourselves in a mission field that is completely unreached then we could maybe find ourselves moving in this area (maybe), but up until the return of the Lord we each need to seek to work in 1Cor 12:28

• wisdom
• knowledge
• faith
• healings
• powers (aka, miracles
• prophecy
• discernment of spirits
• tongues
• interpretation

When we move into the context of the community of Believers we need to add to these 9 Manifesations of the Spirit by ensuring that the 8 Congregational Offices/functions are in operation:

• apostle (aka, church planter)
• prophet
• teacher
• powers
• healings
• administrations
• helps
• tongues

If we were able to ditch the very populist 'teachings' with signs and wonders and get back to the Scriptures then we might just have an opportunity to see the presence of the Holy Spirit working more frequently not only in the life of the Believers (12:7-11) but also within our congregational meetings (12:28).

Unfortunatly much of the Pentecostal movement has succumbed to the foolish teaching that came out of the latter-rain movement of the late fourties where we oddly view Eph 4:11 as our sole model for ministry - what an absolute disaster this false teaching has been, it has probably been the worst thing that the Pentecostal movement has adopted.

 

[Biblicist]

If people are sharing the gospel then its up to God isnt it ("His own will") whether He performs signs and wonders or not.
Stuff will happen when theres a clash of 'kingdoms' anyway I personally dont think we need to push it.

Exactly!

Up until the time that the Lord returns the Believer is to operate within 1Co 12:7-11 and the corporate assemblies are to operate within 1Co 12:28. In my view Eph 4:11 applies to all Believers; Paul is not referring to these particular five roles as 'spiritual gifts'.

 

[Messy]

Here is your answer:


...
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”