Do the horns/kings have to be on a head?

Douggg

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Hey Douggg,

Add in the first part of Ezekiel 28 to the time of the end of Daniel 11.
It seems that this is when the king dies and comes up out of the pit?

wiser than Daniel
no secret can be kept from him
sits/ in the midst of the seas
is slain

Yes, I agree that the first part of Ezekiel 28 is the killing of the Antichrist when in his revealed man of sin stage, he goes into to the temple, sits, making his claim of being God.

He goes into the pit, so we have to go to Isaiah 14 to read about him finding himself there and mocked. Then in Isaiah 14:19-20, God in his disdain for him doesn't let him remain there but brings him back alive as part of God's long term prosecution of Satan.

Coming back alive, the world will believe his claim of being God, and makes an image of him to be worshiped, at the instruction of the false prophet - beginning the great tribulation. Daniel 11:36 picks up at that point.

Doug
 
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Juelrei

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Daniel 7 seems to show horns as being on the head part of a beast.
Rev. 13 has ten horns being with crowns, so should they be as on a head?
Revelation 13 describes a beast with ten horns and seven heads.

The terms are metaphorical. Beast refers to empire. Head refers to ruler. Horn refers to strength. Crown refers to authority.

It will be a beast with seven heads. Each of the six lesser heads will have one horn/crown while the greater head will have 4 horns/crowns.

The number 4 comes from Daniels description of the small one overcoming three more powerful than itself. Thus that former smallest becomes the biggest, to rule over the others.
 
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Douggg

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So that makes the deadly wound happening after Daniel 11:45 starts?

No the deadly wound takes place before Daniel 11:36. It is not addressed in Daniel 11.

The world will wonder over him when he is healed.
Later, in Daniel 12 comes the time of trouble.
The world wonders after he after he is healed, and he begins the 42 months of reign as the Antichrist beast. That is him in Daniel 11:36. Right at the end of the 42 months, the battles in Daniel 11:40-45 takes place. ( Then, the heavens part and Jesus appears in heaven to the world, ready to execute judgment on them. All of the nations waring in the battles against the Antichrist-beast unify to make war on Jesus.) < the part in parenthesis is not in the text of Daniel 11. It comes from other passages in the bible.

As part of their war against Jesus, they attack Jerusalem, and the Jews there. That is found in Zechariah 14. Daniel 12:1 is Zechariah 14:2.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Daniel 12:1 is the worst part of the great tribulation for the Jews. Daniel 12:1 is not the beginning of it, but right at the end.







Doug
 
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Douggg

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Hi Douggg,

Do you think the man of sin is around for the time of Daniel 12's time such as never was?

Because he comes to his end in 11:45.
He hadn't even gained all of the nations yet.
In Rev. 13 all the world wonders after the beast -once the deadly wound is healed.

Jeremiah 30 shows the time of Jacob's trouble is like never was before.
This is when the he as a yoke is broken off of them.

Well, for discussion purposes, I don't like to refer to the Antichrist as the man of sin, except during that particular stage of his career. In Daniel 11:36 thru Daniel 12:1, he is in the Antichrist-beast stage, which, beast is the term used in Revelation 13. It's the same person of course.

Daniel 11:45 is at the end of his time. All of the nations following him takes place 3 1/2 years earlier. Daniel 11:45 is right at the gathering of the nations at Armageddon.



On this chart I show the world amazed "who is able to make war on the beast." (lower right hand corner)

 
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Douggg

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I don't see anyone before Daniel 11:45 taking a mark as to the beast, or setting up his image. Daniel 11 even had him in verses 38-39 honoring others - but in his own land. Not lands - his own land-

The mark and the 666 are not addressed in Daniel 11... nor in Daniel 12. Those two chapters do not address everything that happens during the end times.

He honors others in his "estate" in the kjv. Assuming that could mean in his own land, it is because he is a Jew. Those who go along with him will be given positions of authority in his kingdom.

Doug
 
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Douggg

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Daniel is reading one entire message written in the scripture of truth and/or Gabriel is reading it. Daniel 12 comes after what took place in Daniel 11:45.

The events of Daniel 12:1 come after Daniel 11:45. When it gets to Daniel 12:5, it not just Daniel and the messenger angel talking, but two other persons appear. And the discussion gets expanded. They start talking about the time, times, and half times - from the time the power of the holy people is scattered, not from the time the person in 11:45 comes to his end.

Daniel 12 is where the great tribulation starts - the time, times, and an half. As Daniel keeps reading or getting told what is in it - he gets to the point of he must close the book.
Daniel 12:5 is where the DISCUSSION starts about the great tribulation and it lasting the time, times, and half times.

I think the deadly wound occurs in Daniel 11:45 - not Armageddon.
After he died in Daniel 11:45 will come the time of Satan gives him power and the world wonders after him.
The nations won't be making war with him - he will war against the saints.
Daniel 11:45 is right at the gathering at Armageddon - because in the battles in Daniel 11:44, he gets news from the east that worries him. That news is that the kings of the east have crossed the dried up Eurphrates. That particular passage is right at the end of the 7 years, the sixth vial of wrath. Which is right before the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.

There is no other prophecies in the end times of news coming out of the east, or armies coming out of the east - except that in Revelation 16 right at the end of the seven years.


Revelation 16:
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The nations have the idea - as to who can make war with him.
But he will continue his wars - for 42 months. against the saints.

Zechariah 14 shows that all nations come against Jerusalem and half of the city is taken into captivity. This seems to happen in Daniel 12's timeframe - as to after the world has wondered over the wounded head being healed.
All nations coming against Jerusalem is right at the end of the 7 years, because in Zechariah 14:4-5, it says that those in Jerusalem will escape through the split in the mountain when Jesus foot touches down.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


The part in Revelation 13 about who can make war against the beast is right after he has made war on the two witnesses and over come them.

Revelation 11: 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 13: 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
 
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Douggg

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Time such as never was does not start after Armageddon, but after the abomination of desolation.

vinsight4u, where you are making your mistake I think is you are taking what Jesus said in Matthew 24 about there never being a time of trouble, great tribulation, nothing like it and never will be again. And you are equating that with Daniel 12:1. What you are not getting is that Daniel 12:1 is the WORST PART of that unparalleled trouble. Daniel 12:1 is the peak of it, for the Jews.

Daniel 12:1 is not after Armageddon. Armageddon is where they gather together. From there, they march down and over-run Jerusalem, taking half the city as hostage, as part of their strategy to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them - they think. Daniel 12:1 is about them over-running the city, killing, raping, like madmen. The Jews will be fighting like crazy. Jesus comes down splits the mountain of olives in half allowing the Jews in the city to escape. Then he executes judgment on the world's armies that have gathered to make war on him.

Doug
 
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Douggg

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Could the Michael part of Daniel 12 be about the war in heaven?

Well that is a pretty good theory if one were to take Daniel 12:1 on the broader sense and not connect it to be an event following the battles in Daniel 11:40-45.

I don't lean toward that particular theory because assuming Daniel 12:1 is right at then end of the 7 years, there will be demonic and fallen angels involved, which have been cast down to earth, at the end of the 7 years that people usually don't think about, who will have participation in wanting to stop Jesus. So Michael, being part of Jesus's army returning with Him, could play a major role in subduing those fallen angels and demons.


Doug
 
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