Do the horns/kings have to be on a head?

[vinsight4u]

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[Douggg]

Daniel 7 seems to show horns as being on the head part of a beast.
Rev. 13 has ten horns being with crowns, so should they be as on a head?

Daniel 7:20, ten horns in the beast head.

So since the ten horns are end times, then maybe they are on that one end times head (of the seven heads). The end times head(of the seven heads) is king #7, the Antichrist before he is mortally wounded.

Doug

 

[granpa]

neither one says where the horns are located

 

[Douggg]

neither one says where the horns are located

Daniel7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

 

[granpa]

it could be saying "the ten horns that were there in the beginning and also the other horn that came up later"

 

[granpa]

interestingly the word for "fell before" is nephilim

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5308&t=KJV

 

[Douggg]

it could be saying "the ten horns that were there in the beginning and also the other horn that came up later"

Well, they are end times kings because they rule with the beast for one hour (Revelation 17:12). They as a collective group of ten kings within of one kingdom (such as ten nations in the final form of the EU) at the time of their existence... end times. Which the little horn will emerge in their kingdom.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[granpa]

the ten horns that were there originally and also the other horn that came up later

 

[Douggg]

the ten horns that were there originally and also the other horn that came up later

Sure, I agree, but I am just saying those horns are end times - not a set of ten historic kings.

I see the next thing to happen on the bible prophesy timeline is that there has to be a final ten king version of the EU. Then the little horn will emerge out of that union.

Doug

 

[YeShallTread]

Daniel 7 seems to show horns as being on the head part of a beast.
Rev. 13 has ten horns being with crowns, so should they be as on a head?

As horns are kings...heads are mountains/nations/continents. The horns/kings are rulers of the heads/nations.

Revelation 17:9-10 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Douggg]

Do you think the deadly wound could happen at the end of Daniel 11?

I am not sure of what verse(s) you are referencing as being the end of Daniel 11.

But the end of Daniel 11, those battles, if that is what you are referring to, are right at the end of the 7 years when the other nations of the world have become disillusioned with the Antichrist-beast's claim to be God - as he is unable to stop God's judgments from falling on his global kingdom.

And most likely out of sefl-survival those nations from the south, north, and east quadrants will attack him - as he funnels dwindling resources of food, water, fuel to his Euro ten core group, as God's judgments are falling upon the earth.

If you are talking about verse 11:36, then no, the Antichrist will have already gone through the "revealing" stage of him being the man of sin, son of perdition which gets him killed for the act of going into the temple showing that he is God. That part of his career, and earlier stages of his career are not shown in Daniel 11.

Daniel 11:36 picks up the Antichrist at his Antichrist-beast stage, after he has come back to life, possessed by the beast spirit ascended from the bottomless pit. Daniel 11:36-45 is what takes place during the last 42 months.

This is why now would fit in Rev. 13 as to the world wonders after the healed head/of the beast.
Daniel 12 would follow with the soon time that such as was not.
Then at 12:4, Daniel would have to close the book/ of truth?

Daniel 11 doesn't address the Antichrist being killed and come back to life. Daniel 11 picks up on the Antichrist as being "the king" in Daniel 11:36. That is the first mention of the end times Antichrist in Daniel 11. And it happens to be in his fourth and final stage as the Antichrist beast.

A quick review of the four stages to the Antichrist's career are in order.

1. little horn politician - Daniel 7, emerging out of a Euro ten kingdom

2. prince who shall come - Daniel 9, false king messiah of Israel, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant per Deuteronomy 31:10-11, beginning the 7 years

3. the revealed man of sin/son of perdition - he makes a deal with Satan, goes into the temple and claims to be God... and God has him killed for doing so. The Antichrist in the revealing stage is only in this stage for a brief time. The next stage is the one which he does all his terror.

4. the beast - the Antichrist beast, as God brings the slain Antichrist back to life (the strong delusion), at which time the beast spirit is set loose from the bottomless pit and that spirit possesses the come back to life Antichrist. Revelation 13, the 666 and all, takes place during the last 42 months of the 7 years.

Doug

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[hiscosmicgoldfish]

Daniel 7 seems to show horns as being on the head part of a beast.
Rev. 13 has ten horns being with crowns, so should they be as on a head?

I noticed that, but the horns don't have to be on the head, they could be on the stump or base where the heads come out.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

I'm wondering if chapter 11 flows right into chapter 12, then that makes this where the abomination of desolation time occurs.

Sure Chapter 11 flows right into chapter 12:1. At the last verse in Chapter 11, it says the king's (the Antichrist beast's) time runs out as he has been engaged with fighting the nations from the southern and northern quadtrant, and now the kings of the east have arrived to the middle east.

His time runs out because at that time, the events of the sixth seal take place. The heavens part and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God sickle in hand - and they will be terrified. It will take the urging of the Antichrist, the false prophet, and Satan to convince the world's leaders to band together to try and stop Jesus from executing judgment on them.

They are permitted 45 days to assemble themselves at Armageddon and head down to Jerusalem when the epi-center of the final confrontation takes place, referencing Zechariah 14:2-3. During that 45 days (the time of Daniel 12:1) they persecute and attempt to eradicate the Jews, the worst time in their history. They will take half the city as hostages (in captivity).

Zechariah 14:
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


Back to Daniel 12. In Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. So the angel is saying when the time of the end will be in history and gives two indicators of that time, i.e. when people are traveling all over the place and knowledge increased.

Then in Daniel 12:5-7 appears two other persons, presumably angels. The messenger in linen answers their question of how long the unprecedented time of trouble lasts.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The time, times, half times - corresponds to the time, times, half times in Revelation 12:14 of Satan being cast down to earth having great wrath.

Then the angel indicates what begins that time of trouble as beginning with the Abomination of Desolation, when it is set up and ends 1335th days later.

And 1290 days which is from when it is set up till the world sees Jesus in heaven before the throne of God, sickle in hand, about to execute judgement on them who have been persecuting the Jews and non-Jews who have embraced Jesus even during those days of deception. We have to use other scripture to come to that conclusion regarding the 1290 days because it is not revealed in the text of Daniel 12.

KJV
Daniel 12:1
"And at that time...shall be a time of trouble, such as never was..."

Just ahead of this would be the time of the abomination of desolation.

Well, Revelation 12:1, that time of trouble is not ahead of the abomination of desolation because there are the verses in between Revelation 12:1 and Revelation 12:11-12 of the dialogue between the two persons and the messenger explaining what sets off the time of unprecedented trouble, and when in history the end times takes place.

So does just ahead of Daniel 12 come the time of the 1290 days when the abomination of desolation is placed?
Is there a time of 1290 days from part of what is written in 11:31 and the rest of it?

Daniel 12:1 is right at the very end of the 7 years, that final wave of persecution as the nations have gathered themselves together to fight Jesus, and have moved down to Jerusalem, to take hostages and commit atrocities, in Zechariah 14.

The remainder of Daniel 12 is the messenger saying when in history and how long that period of trouble will last (1335 days), with Daniel 12:1 being the height of it all.

The setting up of the Abomination of Desolation will be the Jews signal to flee to mountains to escape. Them who don't make it out in time will be stuck and are the ones in Revelation 12:17. Ultimately, they will be rescued by Jesus, but if they escape to the mountains God uses judgments against the Antichrist-beast's kingdom killing his followers to protect them.

Revelation 12:
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Are there still 42 months left at least from the end of Daniel 11?
time, times, and half a time

No, basically the 42 months and the time, times, half times are the same second half to the seven years. The reason for the difference in time expression is nuances due to the unspecified time it takes for war in heaven after the two witnesses ascend, which is advanced study.

Does the deadly wound happen at the end of Daniel 11?

No, that takes place between the lines of Daniel 11:35 and Daniel 11:36. Just as the 7 years of the Antichrist takes place between the lines of Ezekiel 39:16 and Ezekiel 39:17-20.

It seems as if Daniel is being shown how events will unfold in a book - that book written - is the scripture of truth. If he is still reading it, or listening as to what it is written in it--all the way until he is told later the part in Daniel 12:4 as to shut up the words - close the book, then everything should unfold in order.

There is much information in Daniel, but it does not cover everything. We have to put together information from other parts of the bible to get the full picture.

Does the time of the world wondering over the healed head slide in at the end of Daniel 11?

If you mean by "slide" that the world becomes disenchanted with his claim to be God, then yes. Because the healed head will be the initial strong delusion at the beginning of the last 42 months that God sends, which "to the world" confirms the Antichrist's claim that he is God.

That event of him coming back alive happens shortly after he is killed for going into the temple claiming to be God. The world will be awestruck by him coming back alive. And the world making the Abomination of Desolation image of him and placing it in the temple.

After coming back alive and the abomination of desolation placed, he begins persecuting the Jews who will have dropped him like a hot potato as their perceived king messiah. The two witnesses battle him, with plagues and judgments which affect the whole world for 75 days as the Jews escape to the mountains. At the end of their 1260 days, the Antichrist-beast overcomes them, which brings joy to the world because of the two witnesses plagues and judgments caused them to suffer. They rejoice and in Revelation 13:4 say who is able to make war on the beast (they won't actually say beast, but his name and title whatever that turn out to be)

Doug

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

Jesus place the abomination of desolation as the time to flee Judea. The people don't seem to be fleeing there in Daniel 11:33.
Daniel 12 shows us the part that seems to come just shortly after the abomination of desolation, because it refers to the time as "such as never was".
I don't see how the abomination could happen way back in 11:31 and not get to the point of such as never was - until 12:1.

Hi vngiht4u,

There is no one fleeing in any part of Daniel 11 because that segment is before Daniel 11:36 but after Daniel 11:35.

Daniel 12:1 is not the start of the great tribulation, but the worst part of it for the Jews right at the last of the 7 years.

The great tribulation will have started actually 3 1/2 years (nominally) before Daniel 12:1.

I see it as starting with Daniel 11:1 or at least by verse 2, we are getting things told to us as they are to unfold in the scripture of truth. This makes the time of the great tribulation not happening until after the start of Daniel 12.

Later in Daniel 12 is when the book is closed.

Those earlier verses in Daniel 11 are historic conflicts between the Ptomely's and the Selucids with the Jews caught up in the middle at times with Antiochus Ephinases IV desecrating the temple.. The end times don't begin until Daniel 11:36, and even then Daniel 11:36 starts off in the middle of the 7 years.

What if the abomination is told to us in 11:31, but then we are to place the 1290 days of time between it and the time of the daily sacrifice taken away?
This would move the wars and such to all before the abomination happens, and then not a time of wars against the nations - but against the saints begins. It is time to scatter the people of Israel and the saints are chased/slain.

Well, in Daniel 11:31 that is historic of Antiochus IV after being turned back by the Romans from going into Egypt, like he had done two other times, venting his anger for having to do so on the Jews.

That makes sense more as to Rev. 13 as after the deadly wound - it seems the nations do not make war with the beast healed head.

The nations will not make war on the Antichrist-beast right at the start of the 42 months. Everyone will be on board. But over the next 3 1/2 years as the wrath of God is poured out on the earth, it will wear down the nations as to the Antichrist-beast's claim of God-hood - since he will be unable to stop those judgments. It is not till the very end, that the other quadrant nations (south, north, east) will rebel against him.

who can make war with him

Does that sound like the king of the south and others going against him/the king of the north?
I think maybe we should place the abomination of desolation time as after the last verse of Daniel 11. Next would come Michael stands up - and there shall be a time of trouble.

The abomination of desolation, the end times version, is not in Daniel 11 because that takes place right before Daniel 11:36.

Again, Daniel 12:1 that time of trouble unequaled is the worse part of the great tribulation for the Jews, which comes right at the end of the seven years. It is not the beginning of it. The beginning of the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years earlier, right before Daniel 11:36, but that event of setting up of the end times AOD is not in Daniel 11. The end times in Daniel 11 picks up right after the AOD has been setup, with the Antichrist-beast in the 42 months of his reign in Daniel 11:36.

I am probably being about as clear as mud. So let me try to clarify

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

The above verse covers 2000 years of Christianity, Between that verse and the next verse is the rise of the little horn Antichrist, the Antichrist becoming the perceived king messiah of the Jews, him starting the 7 years, his selling out to Satan, his being killed, his coming back to life, and the Abomination of Desolation image of hims setup in the temple.


In the next verse, Daniel 11 begins it's entrance to the end times with the Antichrist in that last 42 months, with him in the Antichrist-beast stage of his career.

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Then at the end of that 42 months (the end of the second half of the 7 years) the battles begin, which the nations of the other three quadrants attack him. He will actually be winning the battles because it says in Daniel 8 that he can't be broke with human hands. But totally unexpected like a thief in the night, the heavens part and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God, prepared to execute judgment, which is what it is talking about in Daniel 11:45 of the Antichrist-beast time run out.

So in a desperation move, the kings of the earth decide to make war on Jesus. Which takes us to Daniel 12:1, the worst time for the Jews ever.
Daniel 12:1 will be the worst part of the great tribulation which at that time will have been going on for 3 1/2 years, ever since the AOD was setup.

Doug