Do prayers work?

[Salo]

Hello, Christianforums.

I have a question: Do you think prayers work? Do they have only symbolic meaning, or do they only work in special circumstances? Can they have effects that are clearly against the laws of nature as we know them?

I thank you for your answers.

 

[Hupomone10]

James 5:16-18
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain; and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.

And he prayed again, and the sky poured rain, and the earth produced its fruit.


I have had many answers to prayers, but none that an atheist cannot explain away with excuses. Not referring to you personally, but to others on here.

Jesus once heard His Father speak from heaven, and those nearby said "Oh, it was just thunder. Just thunder." (John 12:29)

We hear what we want to hear. If you don't want to believe in God, He will not appear to be there. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you."

 

[andreha]

Hello, Christianforums.

I have a question: Do you think prayers work? Do they have only symbolic meaning, or do they only work in special circumstances? Can they have effects that are clearly against the laws of nature as we know them?

I thank you for your answers.

1. I know they work.

2. They are not limited in effectiveness. Just as an example. I've driven through a deep pothole, covered by rainwater once. My cv joint broke - locking the steering wheel. I prayed. Immediately, my steering wheel unlocked, and I was able to drive home. After I parked the car in the garage, I saw a ball bearing that fell out of the cv joint. Even the next day, after taking my car for repairs, it drove just fine. The mechanic had no words of explanation how the car could still drive there. He was thoroughly flabbergasted.

3. Indeed, see above.

 

[Living in the Light]

Do you desire prayer, Salo? I'm wondering why you are asking this question. Yes, prayer works. I think it works better if one is a believer in the power of God/Jesus.

 

[Hospes]

If "Does prayer work?" means "Can I manipulate God via talking to him?", then the answer is no. If it means "Can I say something that brings about outcomes I desire?", then you are really asking "Are there magical words?" and the answer again is no. If you are asking if God hears and responds to people that seek him and his participation in their lives, then, yes, prayer works.

Of course, it doesn't lend itself to silly statistical studies.

 

[Humble Pie]

Yes God answers our prayers but we don't always get what we want.

 

[Theofane]

Yes God answers our prayers but we don't always get what we want.

Or when we want it, or how.

 

[razeontherock]

Hello, Christianforums.

I have a question: Do you think prayers work? Do they have only symbolic meaning, or do they only work in special circumstances? Can they have effects that are clearly against the laws of nature as we know them?

I thank you for your answers.

No, prayers do not work.

God does hear and answer prayer though. This is not mere semantics; it is a CRUCIAL difference! More than enough to stop the Power of G-d dead in His tracks, if we're on the wrong side of that distinction. And G-d is not bound by the laws He set in motion, in our Universe He created. He can violate them at will, according to HIS Wisdom. (Not ours, regardless of what we might ask for)

 

[Harry3142]

Salo-

Do I believe that prayers are effective? It depends on our motives for the prayers.

We Christians have a code of conduct that goes much further than merely obeying a set of laws and commandments. The emotions which form the very core of our being must also conform to what God wants of us.

There are two sets of emotions. One set is identified as being 'in synch' with what we call 'the sinful nature' while the other set is identified as being 'the fruit of the Spirit', and so 'in synch' with what God wants of us.

Here is the passage where both these sets are listed:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

This passage is our spiritual 'yardstick'. Do our words and actions have as their reason for being those emotions which are listed under the heading 'acts of the sinful nature'? Then what we are saying or doing, even if that is a prayer request to God himself, does not conform to what he wants of us; for this reason, he will not grant the request. But if the underlying motive for what we say or do, including our prayer requests to God himself, has as its point of origin those emotions which are under the heading 'the fruit of the Spirit', then we can have confidence that we are 'in synch' with what God wants of us. Those prayers he will answer in his own way.

 

[lucaspa]

Hello, Christianforums.

I have a question: Do you think prayers work? Do they have only symbolic meaning, or do they only work in special circumstances? Can they have effects that are clearly against the laws of nature as we know them?

I thank you for your answers.

People report personal effects of prayers: personal advice, comfort in times grief and stress, ability to forgive, etc.

There is a considerable body of scientific literature showing that intercessory prayer for the gravely ill does have an effect. Atheists usually quote the most recent paper by Benson et al. to the contrary. However, if you actually read that paper, you find 1) the study didn't have the statistical power to detect an effect for the main part of the study. Thus the negative report doesn't mean anything. 2) For a subset of patients who had serious side effects, prayer did indeed have an effect. Those prayed for had fewer of these serious side effects.

Now, does that "prove" God answers prayers? NO. All the studies tested was the effect of intercessory prayer. None of the studies tested why intercessory prayer worked. This often happens in science. For instance, Linde showed that lime juice prevented scurvy. He never showed why lime juice prevented scurvy (vitamin C).

 

[lucaspa]

In what way was it poorly designed?

begt, FYI there are 2 type of statistical error:
Type I: saying there is a statistical difference where there is none.
Type II: saying there is not a statistical difference where there is one.

The ability to keep from having a Type II error is called "power" of the experiment. You need the power to detect a difference. Many, many studies in the scientific literature, particularly the medical literature, do not have sufficient power and the reports of a negative effect are not valid.

The most common way to get enough power is to increase the number of samples. In the Benson et al. paper that would mean having an adequate number of patients.

If you read the Benson et al. paper, instead of reading just the Abstract or the so-called summaries at atheist websites, you come across this passage:

""Possible explanations for the lack of effect of intercessory prayer itself<BR>
include the following. First, intercessory prayer may not be effective in reducing complications after CABG. Second, the magnitude of the reduction could be smaller than the 10% that our study was powered to detect."

This particularly become relevant when you go back and look at the Results:
"Almost all subjects believed that friends, relatives, and/or members of their religious institution would be praying for them—group 1 (95.0% [574/604]), group 2 (96.8% [579/597]), and group 3 (96.0% [577/601]). "

What does that mean? It means that only 5% of the people did not have intercessory prayer! The study is designed to have a power to detect 10% difference, but only 5% of the people weren't being prayed for! So even if every person who wasn't prayed for had a bad result and every person who was in the intercessory prayer group had no bad result, they still could not have detected a difference!

The procedure they chose to test was CABG. CABG has a LOT of minor adverse effects. The reason the procedure is done is that these minor problems are easily fixed by material medicine and don't hurt the patient. So there really is no need for intervention for the patient to do better. However, for serious adverse effects, the paper says this:
"Eighteen percent (109/604) in group 1 versus 13% (80/597) in group 2 (relative risk 1.18, 95% CI 1.03-1.35, P = .027) had at least one major
event within 30 days of CABG."

The prayer group had a decrease in major events that was significant at p <0.05 (p = 0.027).

So, if we are hypothesizing God answering prayers, this is what you would expect : no intervention when the problem is minor and will be fixed by material medicine, but intervention in major events that are life-threatening.

 

[Theofane]

Do prayers work?

Who are you praying to?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hello, Christianforums.

I have a question: Do you think prayers work? Do they have only symbolic meaning, or do they only work in special circumstances? Can they have effects that are clearly against the laws of nature as we know them?

I thank you for your answers.

That depends on what you mean by "work". Prayer isn't magick, our words and thoughts don't have power to affect the world around us to achieve what we want; nor does the invocation of God mean we can summon His power to achieve our desires and wants and impose them upon the world around us.

Prayer, rather, is an opening of ourselves to the will and activity of God. We offer supplications, pouring ourselves out to God. We present ourselves humbly before God with our needs, our joys, our struggles, our sins, our praises, our thanksgivings, our sorrows, and our sufferings. Not to get God to do what we want, but to present ourselves and all there is about us as an offering to God. We pray, not so that our will may be done, but that our will might be conformed to God's will. The heart of prayer is seen in Christ's archetypal prayer, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

To that end, does prayer work? I would say yes. A lifestyle of prayer is going to change us. How and in what ways may vary, but hopefully it leads us to being more conscientious of both our words/thoughts/actions as well as conscientious of the needs/worries/joys of others. Prayer ought to become as breathing, a part of who and what we are and as essential to our spiritual life as respiration is to our physical life.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ldelporte]

Yes, I believe prayers can "work", but my idea of a prayer "working" might be different than yours.

I don't think prayer is a magic wand that forces God's hand to do our bidding. (James 4:3)

As for prayer causing things to go against the laws of nature. That's not necessary. Since God is the creator of the laws of nature, I'm sure He's capable of answering prayers while remaining within the laws that He designed. The Bible tells us that while miracles may cease - faith, hope, and love will remain. I believe these are the kind of things God wants to bless us with as we pray. (1 Corinthians 13:8-13)

I've prayed for things that resulted in things that I thought were pretty amazing. They weren't inherently supernatural. Technically they could have been coincidence. But for me they were clearly answered prayers. (1 Cor 1:18)

God will give us what we ask when we ask for it in Jesus' name. That doesn't mean we tack on the words "In Jesus' Name" to the end of our prayers. It's more about what our intention is when we pray. Is it for our own selfish desires, or is it for God's purpose as we desire to see God's will accomplished.

I suppose it could be God intention to encourage and strengthen our Faith by answering prayers that could be considered a little self centered on our part. But I suspect that's largely due to his desire to encourage us and strengthen our faith. But I don't think we can expect that to happen every time.

Some scriptures that relate to what I'm talking about:

James 4:3
"When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures."

1 Corinthians 13:8-13
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 1:18
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

 

[lucaspa]

If evidence comes up I will change my mind, but until then...

That's a bit disingenuous, to be charitable. Theists have evidence. You don't consider the evidence to be valid. That is very different from "if evidence comes up". Evidence has already come up. As I said, for whatever reason, you don't count the evidence as being conclusive.

Let's take this out of religion and into science. Recently a group at CERN has reported evidence that neutrinos travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum. So, evidence is there. However, for a variety of reasons, most physicists and other scientists, including me, do not accept that evidence as valid. We think 1) that there may be errors in obtaining the evidence and 2) there is evidence already existing that contradicts this evidence. BUT, we cannot honestly say "If evidence comes up, I will change my mind about matter traveling faster than light, but until then ..."

The same applies to you. I am not saying you must become a theist. What I am saying is that you stop dishonestly saying there is no evidence at all.

BTW, what evidence do you have that deity does not exist? That's also important. Atheism doesn't get a free pass.

 

[Volokh]

sometimes

 

[lucaspa]

sometimes

Depends on what you pray for. If you pray like the Janis Jopliin song "Dear Lord, give me a Mercedis Benz, my friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends. Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends. So dear Lord, please give me a Mercedes Benz", the answer is going to be "no".

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[dollarsbill]

Do you think prayers work?

For some, yes.

John 9:31
31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

 

[endsdawn]

Prayers do work. There are a couple of people in the church I go to who should have died of cancer but, instead of accepting chemo or any other treatment, they simply prayed and they were healed.

Don't believe me? Visit the four square church in Fairview, MI. and ask.