Do most Baptists believe the Rapture?

[Oxygen]

I have to agree with Ragamuffins. I don't care. My church teaches a pre-trib rapture, but I think that a lot of us Christians use the study of eschatology as an excuse to sit back and do nothing while the world goes to Hell in a handbasket. Many of us would rather pick up a sensational Tim LaHaye book, or something by Hal Lindsey rather than get out there and be the hands and feet of Jesus. We are called to be wounded healers, we are called to serve Christ, we are freed to live in His light and share that light with everyone. We are NOT called to theologize to the point of neglecting our duty from our sovereign lord.

Besides, I don't believe that all of this is real "THEOLOGY." Real theology isn't academic treatises, philosophical mumbo-jumbo, or academic knowledge. Real theology is when a simple person knows (and is known by) God so intimately that they speak of Him from that fount of abundant knowledge. Soteriology, Eschatology, Ecclesiology, etc. are all grandiose terms to describe chaff and sawdust.

Our call is to make disciples of all nations, not argue over when we are taken up to be with the Lord.

Just my two cents,

Adrian

 

[fieldlily]

I agree with the part about Christians in China, North Korea, and other places facing persecution. But I feel very strongly that American Christians don't know the meaning of persecution. Here in America, our children learn evolution in school and do not have state-sponsored worship services in class, and we call that "persecution." There was a time in Roman history when Christians would have been happy to just be left alone by the state. Here in the States, evangelical Christians have overwhelming political influence, and the worst persecution we suffer is from skeptics who intellectually attack Christianity. The fact that some Americans disagree with Christianity doesn't count as persecution. People who publish anti-Christian books, as godless and wicked as they may be, are not persecuting Christians. In America, we waste our time debating over meaningless Ten Commandments monuments. But there are places in the world where people will behead you if they learn that you believe in the Ten Commandents. Again, this isn't persecution. The church has suffered from over 200 years of dominance in America, and it has led us to be lax. I doubt many Christians (yes, even myself) would have any clue about what to do if Christianity ever became an illegal religion. That would be true persecution.

Sorry for responding with such vitrol, but it's important to realize that we American Christians are spoiled. We mustn't minimize that real persecution that other Christians suffer by comparing our small trifles with the real sufferings of Christians.

Definitely true of how it is both here with criticism and skepticism which isn't comparable to the real persecutions in other countries where people die for their belief in Christ/Christianity. In some ways many in this country are going the way of the Romans but we Christians aren't being fed to the lions yet.

 

[TexasMike]

Outstanding point Adrian!





However, for the sake of pure discussion amongst believers. Hre are a few scriptures of evidence of persecution and rapture.

Persecution
Matthew 24:4 Then Jesus replied to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Messiah,' and they will deceive many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then they will hand you over to persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.




Rapture!









1 Thessalonians 4: 13 - 18

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.









[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 1 [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:10 While He was going, they were gazing into heaven, and suddenly two men in white clothes stood by them. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:11 They said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven." [/font]



[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 24 [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:3 While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:4 Then Jesus replied to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Messiah,' and they will deceive many. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:9 "Then they will hand you over to persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:10 Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:12 And because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:13 But the one who endures to the end, this one will be delivered. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world as a testimony to all nations. And then the end will come. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:15 "So when you see the abomination that causes desolation , spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place" (let the reader understand), [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:16 "then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:17 A man on the housetop must not come down to get things out of his house. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:18 And a man in the field must not go back to get his clothes. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:20 Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place since the beginning of the world until now, and never will again! [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:22 Unless those days were cut short, no one would survive. But because of the elect those days will be cut short. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:23 "If anyone tells you then, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'Over here!' do not believe it! [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:24 False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:25 Take note: I have told you in advance. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:26 So if they tell you, 'Look, he's in the wilderness!' don't go out; 'Look, he's in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:28 Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed her light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:32 "Now from the fig tree learn this parable: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:33 In the same way, when you see all these things, know that He is near--at the door! [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:34 I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:36 "Now concerning that day and hour no one knows--neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son --except the Father only. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:37 As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:39 They didn't know until the flood came and swept them all away. So this is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be: [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one left. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one left. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:42 Therefore be alert, since you don't know what day your Lord is coming. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:43 But know this: If the homeowner had known what time the thief was coming, he would have stayed alert and not let his house be broken into. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]24:44 This is why you also should get ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. [/font]




Pre trib.. post trib... Im not 100% sure of but I think pretribulation. But there is on thing I am 100% sure of. We WILL be raptured (caught up) because the Bible says so.
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[arunma]

Definitely true of how it is both here with criticism and skepticism which isn't comparable to the real persecutions in other countries where people die for their belief in Christ/Christianity. In some ways many in this country are going the way of the Romans but we Christians aren't being fed to the lions yet.

The interesting thing about the romans was that after about 300 years of persecution, Christianity actually became a legal religion in the Roman Empire (with the Edict of Milan, issued shortly before the First Nicene Council). While this wasn't necessarily a bad thing, the union of church and state led to the corruption of the European church, which resulted in the Reformation. That's one reason that I'm concerned about any mixing of the duties of the church and the state.

Honestly, I'm not sure which way things are going in America. Most people my age (at least the ones I encounter, which admittedly isn't a random sample) aren't Christians. In fact, many of them despise Christianity. On the other hand, we see that conservative Christians wield tremendous power and influence in the government. I'm certain that Christians will face absolutely no persecution in America in the near future. But if the culture changes, I suppose that it could happen in a generation or two (as it did in the Roman Empire after the Edict of Milan). But until that actually happens, I don't think it's right for American Christians to act as if we face persecution in this country.

 

[Terri]

It is a mistake to not care about Biblical prophesy.

God did not put all of the prophesy into the Bible just to take up space. Jesus' activities didn't end at His birth nor at His death on the cross. To not care about all of the prophesies is to ignore a large part of Jesus.

REV 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

[arunma]

Terri, it also says, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." (Revelation 1:3). Indeed, end-times prophecy is an important part of the Christian faith. To put it in the proper perspective, this does not mean that we should make the error of the Thessalonians by panicking and "heading for the hills." Rather, we should live each day with the understanding that Jesus will return to judge the earth and repay each of us the just recompense for our deeds.

 

[novcncy]

An important distinction is to remember that in Matthew 24, Jesus is talking to Jews, not the church. Keep in mind that Matthew was written to prove to the Jews that Jesus was their King, and I believe the book will yet accomplish its purpose.

Also, Arunma, I see what appears to be a paradox in your views. You state you believe in a post-trib rapture, yet you realize that the Thessalonians were well aware of the immediacy of the return of Christ. How could they be expecting Jesus' return prior the revelation of anti-Christ, if Paul had taught them anything other than a pre-tribulation "rapture"? I suppose what I'm wondering is how do the two beliefs (Pre-/Post-) resolve in the light of what the Thessalonians were doing?

Just for some clarification, I believe the rapture will happen prior to the tribulation. Noah is a good example of how God protects His people from the judgement of the wicked. But anyway, this is a good thread, and I'm looking forward to seeing it continue.

 

[Oxygen]

Terri, when I say I don't care, I'm not talking about not caring about what the bible says about the end times. I mean that I'm not going to focus on that to the exclusion of our true calling, making disciples of all nations. Speculation, studies, books, etc. about the end times are all well and good, but it seems that people are more focused on that then on living the Gospel. That is my point.

 

[arunma]

Also, Arunma, I see what appears to be a paradox in your views. You state you believe in a post-trib rapture, yet you realize that the Thessalonians were well aware of the immediacy of the return of Christ. How could they be expecting Jesus' return prior the revelation of anti-Christ, if Paul had taught them anything other than a pre-tribulation "rapture"? I suppose what I'm wondering is how do the two beliefs (Pre-/Post-) resolve in the light of what the Thessalonians were doing?

It seems to me that if someone believed that Jesus would save the church from the tribulation, there would be no reason to flee from one's home and livelihood. But if the tribulation occurs first, then we have every reason to run away (well, except for the fact that the Apostle tells us not to do that). Jesus said that there would be signs in the heavens to signal the tribulation. So until that happens, it makes sense for Paul to stop the Thessalonians from panicking.

 

[novcncy]

It seems to me that if someone believed that Jesus would save the church from the tribulation, there would be no reason to flee from one's home and livelihood. But if the tribulation occurs first, then we have every reason to run away (well, except for the fact that the Apostle tells us not to do that). Jesus said that there would be signs in the heavens to signal the tribulation. So until that happens, it makes sense for Paul to stop the Thessalonians from panicking.

I never saw it as fleeing away from their homes and livelihoods, but instead a sense of apathy, as in, why should I work hard, since Jesus will come back for me soon?

Jesus DID say there would be signs in the heavens, but he said that to Jews. I know that you mentioned you believe in covenant theology. I don't, but rather believe that the church and Israel are distinct entities. I'm sure you can see how this would affect the impact of Matthew.

That said, I found this little post.... http://www.christianforums.com/t1981359-daniel-9-prophecy-no-seven-year-tribulation.html .....in the SDA forum, and it got me thinking.....

Would you care to comment?

I guess the bottom line, is I need to bone up on and study my -tologies, I think in this case, it's eschatology. What a big word, good job me!!!! But I don't want to get distracted by this to the point I forget to have my feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Mostly the idea of the rapture comes from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

This scenario is created by Paul, no where do we see Jesus predict such an event. The Gospel passages alluding to “the Son of Man coming on clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62) are about Jesus’ vindication His “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning King or Master (Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem (as He was not there in the 2nd Temple period), not about Jesus returning to earth.

I don’t deny the Ascension of Jesus or the Second Coming – I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s New Creation.

Paul’s description of the rapture in Thessalonians is a brightly colored version of what he says in 1 Cor. 15-51:54 and Philippians 3:20-21. Paul borrows imagery from Biblical and political sources. He echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah, a loud trumpet sounds and a loud voice is heard. Remember Paul is a Jew, Jews described things with symbols, images, metaphors, not with concrete words and definitions like we Greek thinkers do today.

Second he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a Son of Man) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor was used to describe Jesus in the Gospels and now Paul applies it to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony. The citizens go out to meet him in the open country and escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

 

[arunma]

Jesus DID say there would be signs in the heavens, but he said that to Jews. I know that you mentioned you believe in covenant theology. I don't, but rather believe that the church and Israel are distinct entities. I'm sure you can see how this would affect the impact of Matthew.

Let's say I did believe in dispensationalism. Why will Jews see the signs, and not Christians? You might point out that Jews will still be on the earth, while the Christians are raptured. But what about the Jewish Christians? They'll be raptured too. And then we have the issue of Gentile converts to Judaism. Was Jesus talking to them when he mentioned the signs in the heavens?

One of my problems with dispensationalism is the inability to properly define a Jew. Are converts to Judaism also Jews? This would imply that Christ-denying rabbis have some sort of divine authority. But surely we don't believe that! I prefer Paul's definition: a Jew is a person who is inwardly circumcized.

Furthermore, let me point out that Christ wasn't speaking exclusively to the unbelieving Jews. He was speaking to his disciples also (who were believing Jews). But if his disciples are saved, why do they need to know all of this?

Alas, this is an unrelated topic. I'd enjoy another thread on dispensationalism and covenant theology, though.

That said, I found this little post.... http://www.christianforums.com/t1981359-daniel-9-prophecy-no-seven-year-tribulation.html .....in the SDA forum, and it got me thinking.....

Well, I read it. I promise, I didn't blow him off just because he's SDA.

What he says seems to have some merit, except for one inconsistency. It's generally believed that Christ was crucified in the year 33, not 31. And I usually understand that Stephen was stoned in late 33 or perhaps early 34. So if my understanding is correct, this destroys the understanding that the time from Christ's baptism to the stoning of Stephen is the set of seven prophetic days (years). This error, however, could be repaired if we assume that the prophetic week ended when Peter baptized the first Gentile. Now, I'm not clear on the timeline, but I'm willing to accept that it might have happened around 37-38 (seven years after Jesus' baptism). So perhaps it makes sense afterall.

Now I have always understood the book of Revelation to be related to the Diolcletian persecution, which Christians suffered at the time. That said, I do think that the prophecies in the book will have some sort of future fulfillment as well. I'll have to read up on my eschatology just a bit, but I don't think he's provided sufficient evidence to suggest that there will be no tribulation. While John's words are veiled and mysterious, Paul speaks to us in plain English (or rather, plain Greek). And he is specific in his statement that a "man of lawlessness" will be revealed. I'm curious as to how this could be explained, if there's no tribulation.

 

[novcncy]

One of my problems with dispensationalism is the inability to properly define a Jew. Are converts to Judaism also Jews? This would imply that Christ-denying rabbis have some sort of divine authority. But surely we don't believe that!

I'm not sure I see how that implication works? I do agree though, that we don't believe that. As far as defining a Jew, I'm sure that God is capable of knowing who fits the bill, and who doesn't. I would agree with you again, that it's in choosing to follow the Jewish religion. Even in the OT, strangers could be proselytes of Judaism. Personally, I think that perhaps when the Christians are gone, people familiar with the Jewish faith are going to read Matthew, and be like, "Hey....Wait just a minute....? All the stuff Jesus said way back when is happening...Maybe He was the Messiah....and if he was the Messiah, who is this other guy we're all so crazy about?? etc. etc. and you end up with 144,000 witnessess.

Okay, I'm done with that, because, as you mentioned, it can hold its own thread. As far as the SDA guy's little theory goes, I don't think he was saying that there won't be an antiChrist, I think he was saying that there won't be a seven year period of tribulation. In other words, the judgements of God may take less time, or they may be drawn out over a much longer time, but seven years has nothing to do with Christ's return. Maybe more of a historicist viewpoint. Not that I"m endorsing the guys post, or historicism, it was just interesting to me, and I thought you might find it interesting as well.

 

[arunma]

This scenario is created by Paul, no where do we see Jesus predict such an event.

I think I missed this one. Let's not forget that Paul speaks with apostolic authority. We all hold that his words are inspired by God. Therefore, Paul's statement is a message from God. I'd hardly minimize it by saying that Paul "created" the situation, anymore than Moses created the Law.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I think I missed this one. Let's not forget that Paul speaks with apostolic authority. We all hold that his words are inspired by God. Therefore, Paul's statement is a message from God. I'd hardly minimize it by saying that Paul "created" the situation, anymore than Moses created the Law.

So he couldn't have created it as a way of describing what God wanted him to? To take everything that Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, Isaiah, etc as literal devoid of the understanding that the Jewish Eastern way of describing events is with images, pictures, metaphors and not as we Western Greek thinkers describe events.

Please note, I truly believe the Messiah will return, however I find the rapture a "new" invention of the 1800's and as such for me it is rather suspect.

 

[arunma]

So he couldn't have created it as a way of describing what God wanted him to? To take everything that Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, Isaiah, etc as literal devoid of the understanding that the Jewish Easter way of describing events is with images, pictures, metaphors and not as we Western Greek thinkers describe events.

Please note, I truly believe the Messiah will return, however I find the rapture a "new" invention of the 1800's and as such for me it is rather suspect.

Perhaps I misunderstand what you're saying. I fully agree that many of the prophets, apostles, and even Christ, use metaphors. I'm willing to consider the possibility that Paul used a metaphor. I merely reject the notion that Paul or any other apostle stated his own opinions, rather than the teachings of God, in the canonical epistles (except of course for the couple of times that Paul specifically claims to be stating his opinion).

 

[9-iron]

If you can let go of teachings you've had from childhood...step out of the box...

I had a cousin that opened her mind spiritually, step by step she was led into a cult. NOT saying SDA is cult, I'm just saying you have to be careful to let yourself open to every wind that blows.

I'm glad you are comfortable with your belief concerning the end times. However, please be considerate of others. Many have studied the topic for years, even using outside the box thinking and still have come to any complete conclusions.

 

[TexasMike]

Hey, lets get to the real point here. If a person is lost they need Jesus. Pre Trib, Post Trib, Second Coming, whatever. If you are lost none of it will matter.
Lets do our job and obey the great commission and let God worry about the scond coming.

I know for sure one thing that matters, when Jesus returns, if Im here I WILL be caught up.

By the way,
SDA is a false doctrine, period. Catholicism is a false doctrine, period. Mormon is a false doctrine, period. The devils GREATEST tool is to create a lie that is so close to the truth that we believe it and think we are doing Gods will, and deceive ourselves straight into hell right up to our last breath and we will be without excuse.

Bottom line, whatever you believe you better make sure its Gods truth and not just what you were brought up on or what you want to believe. When we stand before God and try to explain that we were confused he isnt going to care. Romans 1 says that we should know the truth by the evidence of that which we see around us and ignorance (or misunderstanding) will be no excuse.

For heavens sake. Get in the Bible open your heart to the TRUTH, the one truth and ask God to reveal it to you personally and he will..

 

[FreeinChrist]

An important distinction is to remember that in Matthew 24, Jesus is talking to Jews, not the church. Keep in mind that Matthew was written to prove to the Jews that Jesus was their King, and I believe the book will yet accomplish its purpose.

Also, Arunma, I see what appears to be a paradox in your views. You state you believe in a post-trib rapture, yet you realize that the Thessalonians were well aware of the immediacy of the return of Christ. How could they be expecting Jesus' return prior the revelation of anti-Christ, if Paul had taught them anything other than a pre-tribulation "rapture"? I suppose what I'm wondering is how do the two beliefs (Pre-/Post-) resolve in the light of what the Thessalonians were doing?

I beleive the faith of the Thesalonians was shaken because they did not expect to be in the Day of the Lord, yet they had a letter or message "as if from" Paul stating the Day was at hand (had come).
So I believe they expected to be raptured before the Tribulation.

 

[RED that's ME]

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