Do EO churches recognise OO baptisms ?

[alexsonofmatthew]

What is there relationship ?

 

[Steinbeck]

To say, "We recognize your baptism," what does this mean? To me, it's meaningless. It's some modern concept to make people feel better about themselves.

 

[jckstraw72]

no, we do not. some places, such as Mt. Athos will baptized OOs into EO, and in those places where they are received by Chrismation it is understood that this is by economia - a relaxation of the strictness that legitimately could be taking place.

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, we do not. some places, such as Mt. Athos will baptized OOs into EO, and in those places where they are received by Chrismation it is understood that this is by economia - a relaxation of the strictness that legitimately could be taking place.

pretty sure ROCOR as well. and even when they are received by chrismation, it is to fill whatever is lacking, implying that OO baptisms lack something.

 

[InnerPhyre]

"Recognizing your baptism" is a Western Legalistic term. We are very close to the Oriental Orthodox. Most of the time, they are received by Chrismation, to fill whatever is lacking, and occasionally they have been known to be received into the Church simply by publicly reciting the Creed.

A Western mind will then look at this and begin dissecting what is lacking in the Oriental Church, but it should be viewed in a therapeutic sense. They are not a part of the Orthodox Church and that is what is lacking. They want to join us, so we give them the medicine so that they can be made whole.

 

[Tallguy88]

So am I really Baptized? Am I really a Christian?

 

[InnerPhyre]

So am I really Baptized? Am I really a Christian?

Yes to both and thanks for the baiting question.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

LOL!!!

Yes to both and thanks for the baiting question.

 

[Tallguy88]

Yes to both and thanks for the baiting question.

Thanks for the answer and the accusation.

I've received answers that basically amounted to "no" to both questions in here before. It was a major stumbling block that caused be to stop investigating Orthodoxy about 6months ago. I'm investigating once again, and am still trying to discern the Orthodox position on this issue. Glad to see that my queries will not be taken in good faith.

 

[Cappadocious]

The Council of Trullo, Canon 95 says:

"...the Manichaeans, and Valentinians and Marcionites and all of similar heresies must give certificates and anathematize each his own heresy, and also Nestorius, Eutyches, Dioscorus, Severus, and the other chiefs of such heresies, and those who think with them, and all the aforesaid heresies; and so they become partakers of the holy Communion."

At the most polemical, we would simply associate the OO with Eutyches (although this is far from the truth). According to Trullo, it would appear that such are to be received through profession of faith, among other things; not necessarily by Chrismation, and certainly not by Baptism.

(re)Baptism in such cases is an innovation. It strikes us as a strict action; strict actions strike us as conservative and traditional. Following this, many misguided souls, in their yearning to be both conservative and traditional, cling to innovations in virtue of their strictness.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

So am I really Baptized? Am I really a Christian?

I never really understood this mentality, and I honestly don't mean to sound harsh by asking this, but what does our opinion of your Christianity, your church, or your Sacraments, matter? It's like me telling our next door neighbors "I don't approve of the fact that you work out so much and that you drink smoothies at midnight." Why does my opinion of their habits, what they do to stay healthy, matter at all? They believe in what they're doing.

If, then, I started thinking "maybe I'm not doing something right to stay healthy. Maybe they have it right?" and asked and they said "I don't think what you're doing is right" or even "Whatever you've done up till now is irrelevant, were just going to focus on what you need to do now" or said "The smoothie you've been drinking is possibly deficient, we're going to get you on this smoothie we know is good for you" why is that offensive?

 

[Tallguy88]

I never really understood this mentality, and I honestly don't mean to sound harsh by asking this, but what does our opinion of your Christianity, your church, or your Sacraments, matter? It's like me telling our next door neighbors "I don't approve of the fact that you work out so much and that you drink smoothies at midnight." Why does my opinion of their habits, what they do to stay healthy, matter at all? They believe in what they're doing.

If, then, I started thinking "maybe I'm not doing something right to stay healthy. Maybe they have it right?" and asked and they said "I don't think what you're doing is right" or even "Whatever you've done up till now is irrelevant, were just going to focus on what you need to do now" or said "The smoothie you've been drinking is possibly deficient, we're going to get you on this smoothie we know is good for you" why is that offensive?

Because I'm considering Orthodoxy, so in that context, the opinion of Orthodox of my status matters. Certain posters here have made it quite clear that my baptism is insufficient/deficient/not real/false.

 

[jckstraw72]

we believe that baptism unites the person to the Body of Christ. We believe that the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ. How could you be united to the Body of Christ outside the Body Christ by someone who is not in the Body of Christ?

 

[Tallguy88]

we believe that baptism unites the person to the Body of Christ. We believe that the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ. How could you be united to the Body of Christ outside the Body Christ by someone who is not in the Body of Christ?

Case in point.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That is but ONE point of view, Tall. Jckstraw takes the more extreme view I think. Most priest I know feel otherwise. My priest told me that I didn't even have to RE-confess sins that I had already confessed in the past to my Catholic priests because he said they have a 100% legitimate, grace-filled confession in his opinion. He said that re-marrying people, re-baptizing, and re-confessing is extreme, ridiculous, and unnecessary. He merely had us confess the sins we had committed AFTER having left the Catholic Church while waiting to go Orthodox. He also chrismated my wife, kids, and I because he recognized our baptism.

Don't sweat this kind of stuff. You ARE a baptized Christian, bro, just like InnerPhyre said. Remember that you have hardcore views in every religion, including the Catholic Church!

Case in point.

 

[jckstraw72]

for the record, i never said he's not a Christian. i asked some meant-to-be thought provoking questions.

is there a text from any Holy Synod that says that reception by economia equates to a recognition of the sacraments of the non-Orthodox?

 

[InnerPhyre]

we believe that baptism unites the person to the Body of Christ. We believe that the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ. How could you be united to the Body of Christ outside the Body Christ by someone who is not in the Body of Christ?

In cases of emergency, even a pagan can baptize.

 

[InnerPhyre]

for the record, i never said he's not a Christian. i asked some meant-to-be thought provoking questions.

is there a text from any Holy Synod that says that reception by economia equates to a recognition of the sacraments of the non-Orthodox?

You are putting forth the extreme position of the most zealous Athonite monks, regardless of the fact that it is not the common practice of the Church at large without any regard to the effects of such a position on inquirers to the faith.

 

[buzuxi02]

Inner,

Thats not true. Only baptised Orthodox christians can perform an emergency baptism. Also the three rites in receiving converts does not validate previous rituals. It only acknowledges an appropriate form and a satisfactory understanding of the Trinity.

 

[jckstraw72]

You are putting forth the extreme position of the most zealous Athonite monks, regardless of the fact that it is not the common practice of the Church at large

what position did i put forth?

which monks on Mt. Athos would you call the most zealous? are you sure all the monasteries aren't practicing the same?

can you quote any Holy Synod which has said that reception by economia is a recognition that non-Orthodox baptisms are baptisms just as Orthodox baptisms are baptisms?

without any regard to the effects of such a position on inquirers to the faith.

wishy-washy answers turn people away too. people never stop to consider that though, do they?