Do Christian Believers Sin?

[red bits]

Calling someone Lord is more than a title. It's reverence, honor and obedience. It implies ownership.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you abide in Christ you do not sin. I have to admit, I don't always abide in Christ. I struggle like Paul did in Romans 8, I don't always walk according to the spirit. If you are able to, and if you only do what the Father tells you, then you and Jesus have a lot in common. But if you don't, and you claim to never sin, I still see Jesus addressing through John and saying that you're deceived and the truth is not in you. But since the argument becomes foolish after awhile, I'll go work on my process and admire anyone who has already won the race while here on earth.

I don't claim that I never sin. But when I do sin I recognise that it is my old nature that sins, not my new nature in Christ. If I look at the issue from the standpoint of my new nature which is born of God then I can say that part of me does not sin. But my old nature does sin and if I allow my thinking to be influenced by my old nature then I will become unbelieving and depressed about my spiritual state. Hebrews tells us to lay aside the weight and the sin that so easily besets us. How do we do that? We start confessing that we are in Christ, accepted by God, a joint heir with Christ, a child of God, and in continual fellowship with God who will never leave us nor forsake us. You are correct that if we abide in Christ then we don't sin, so is not the answer to abide in Christ at all times?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My dear friend, I commend you on your looking deeper than the sin and repent, dual nature confusion much of the body of Christ has. again. Both of us agree that FREE INDEED exists for all of us and that is the freedom from sin, when the weight is finally taken off our backs and our minds renewed. What you and I espouse are so very close to one another. You too understand it is by faith that we take these things to be true. But we differ in one important area. I pray you bear with me as I try my best to articulate it, for once one sees it, and then does one thing...... put faith into action and makes THE truth his truth, something clicks into place, and everything changes. Everything.

What is the difference? You see our freedom as God being blind to the sins we may still commit, and in truth in an unlimited way, if I am understanding you correctly. God is simply blind to them. I am trying to be very clear on what you are saying. Is what I gave stated fair?

What I see is that God can and will deliver us from actually sinning. Yes, we take up our place positionally and come into agreement with God. But now He wants our faith to grow exceedingly. He asks we believe that we are freed from the power of sin. That because we are now new creatures, and our old sin natures, the one that loves to sin, to revel in self, he or she is DEAD.

I don't have a problem with that.

Sin has lost its grip in us! It has little to do with God seeing it or not. Sin literally has no more power over us. Here is why. The strength of sin is the law, correct? And because the law has authority over a man as long as he lives, the only solution for anyone is death. We have up till now interpreted that as accepting that real overcoming is reserved for when our fleshly bodies die. Anyone who is alive still sins and they are ruled by the law. But guess what? We are dead! The grip of sin that satan held over us is gone. We can say yes to God every time! We san stare down satan when the temptation comes that so often has slain and controlled us... and praise God...NOT give in! Brother, He has pronounced that we are light. No part dark. He is not blind to our sins if we commit them. It is far, far better. The black dog is dead, glory to God! He has promised to deliver us from evil, in direct answer to the prayer Jesus taught us to pray.

I have absolutely no problem about that either!!

You are so very very close. I am asking you to take a leap of faith and do what you have given counsel to us to do, and it is very good counsel. If we have a choice of believing what is logical or believing what the word of God clearly says, believe. I know the challenge of hearing this. We look at ourselves and see we are so far from perfect and fear we will never do it, or will get weary trying to sustain our testimony. But we are mistaken. God takes us just like we are, with ALL of our character flaws and defects. We do not have to change one thing. Nada. What He asks for is this.

Give me control and authority....possession... of you... your very life. In return I will plant deep down into the center of you, a seed of pure light. It is alive. It grows. Do you recognize me now? It is me, the living Christ, in you. It is the new you. Simply yield. It is all I ask for. In return, I will, as the master potter, begin to form you as I intended and cause you to obey my voice, and fill you with joy, and transform you as you continue to simply, restfully, amazingly.... abide.... remain in me. Hold up your shield of faith in the truth.

Sound to good to be true? I promise you, it is real. I was bound tighter than most any here seven or so years ago, and God visited me. He showed me what I show you. It works. As I have stood with my shield high and trusted Him that I am new, and sin has no more power or authority over me, and resisted the devil steadfast in that faith, God has bountifully done what he promised to do, to begin to change my character from the inside out. I have far, far to be brought still, but when I look backwards at who I used to be, even today I stand in amazement of our God.

We are still on the same page!

There is one thing I must say, and I mean no disrespect to you. You seem a good man and a man of grace. The teaching that says God cannot see our sins is a dangerous one if we are not longing in our hearts to actually be delivered from the old us and actually walk pure hearted before God. For those who are caught up in and blinded by a sin, they can drift further and further into evil, for there is now no fear of consequences, for God is blind to any bad they might do.There is a huge danger of sin for a believer, and God warns us of it. Of course we can be forgiven if we sin and confess it to God and repent. But the danger is that by continuing in that sin, we allow our hearts to be hardened. Our words might be the same, but faith has in essence disappeared. We are now on the path that leads away from God and yes, eventually, that life can be snuffed out, just like the good seed that truly sprouted but finally succumbed to the weeds, the shallow soil, the heat of persecution.

God is not blind to our sin. I never said that in any of my posts. What I have said is that our sin does not cause as an issue with God. Because we are covered by the Righteousness of Christ. God chooses to view us only according to the Righteousness of Christ that clothes us. The way to get the victory over our sinful habits which originate from our old nature is to abide in Christ and to maintain faith in that all our sins are laid on Christ and He has paid the full price for every sin we have and ever will commit. So when we go to God and confess sin, God will come back to us and say, "I am not going to deal with you on the basis of that sin because Jesus paid the price for it therefore it belongs to Him, so don't be a thief by taking from Jesus what is His. Also, I am not angry with you over that sin because all my anger has been poured on on Christ and there is none left in me; therefore all I have for you is goodness, patience and kindness."

God is clear. It is he who does righteousness who is righteous.

I would put it the other way around. It is because we are righteous that we do righteousness. This is more in keeping with the truth that our sinfulness has been replaced by the Righteousness of Christ.

Abiding in Him will always lead to holy, fruit laden character in us.

If it is true, and we both know the word is truth, that if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, then do you not see. It has nothing to do with what God sees. It totally has to do with what God DOES inside us. Can He actually cause the new nature we are to obey Him in all things? Is obedience, the weak link under the old covenant, done away with in the new.... or is obedience now a promise? Our God in Ezekiel 36 tells us very plainly so. He is planning an awakening of His saints in these last days who will actually become overcomers as they combine the truth of the blood of the lamb with the words of THEIR testimony. And I especially love near the end of the chapter that God the Father utters these amazing, promise filled words.

"I shall yet be inquired of by the House of Israel to do it for them."

We are back on the same page again.

We are about to discover the highway of holiness. An amazing journey awaits us.Short, lol, but mind numbingly amazing.

We are already on the highway of holiness. All we need to do is to believe it. It is not in the future for us. For Ezekiel it was in the future. But that scripture is now fulfilled in us through Christ. We have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places. We are on the amazing journey right now!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I want to bring up another interesting point to consider.

As Gentile believers we are in a different place as to what is identified as sin in us. In Acts, Paul identifies some false apostles who went to the Galatian churches demanding that believers be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved. Now the Law is summarised in the Ten Commandments. So Paul viewed those who taught that Gentile believers are required to keep the Ten Commandments as false. This shows that Paul did not require the Gentile believers in the Galatian churches to keep the Ten Commandments.

So there was a big argument about it, and Paul went to Jerusalem to confer with the Apostles there to sort things out. This resulted in the First Council of Jerusalem. They had quite a discussion about it and the conclusion according to James was, in Acts 15:20:

"We should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."

So, the Ten Commandments for Gentile believers were replaced by four instructions. For Gentile believers to do any of these things it was considered a sin for them. But that was all. Gentile believers were totally free from any other rule that might be imposed on them. Of course the principle of love is the guiding principle for Christian conduct. I am not denying that at all. But for groups that compile a whole catalogue of things they consider sins and then require believers to abide by them is putting them in the position the same as Paul described as false apostles.

When it comes to if a believer sins or not, who is the judge? If the four requirements that are specified in Acts 15:20 qualified Gentile believers to be admitted in the fellowship of the Early Church, then no-one could add to those requirements, and no one has the right to put a believer out of fellowship for anything other than those four requirements. In a modern society most of our meat comes from the Freezing Works and is killed the proper way, so we don't eat meat from strangled animals. Because we, in the main, don't offer food to idols, we don't run into that problem either. But it is right to put a person out of fellowship for sexual immorality, but we need to be very careful about what we view as immorality. Many de facto relationships might not be the sexual immorality that the Jerusalem Apostles thought. They would have seen having sex with temple prostitutes as sexual immorality more than a couple living as man and wife even though they might not have been officially married by law. Eating black pudding (blood-based) might not be the same as was in the First Century, but the ritual drinking of blood might have been what the Apostles were talking about.,

So you see, deciding what is sin and what is not varies between cultures and church groups, so we can't make a blanket judgment of anyone who is a Gentile believer.

Actually, Paul gives a list of the works of the flesh in Galatians 5. If a person is exhibiting those attributes, then one can assume that he or she is in the flesh and not the Spirit. Romans 8:8 tells us that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. It is not that He gets angry with us, but it means that He can't do much with us while we are in the flesh. Being in the flesh is trying to live according to the Law, allowing our sinful nature to rule us, instead of abiding in Christ and living by the faith of the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

 

[Gideons300]

If you abide in Christ you do not sin. I have to admit, I don't always abide in Christ. I struggle like Paul did in Romans 8, I don't always walk according to the spirit. If you are able to, and if you only do what the Father tells you, then you and Jesus have a lot in common. But if you don't, and you claim to never sin, I still see Jesus addressing through John and saying that you're deceived and the truth is not in you. But since the argument becomes foolish after awhile, I'll go work on my process and admire anyone who has already won the race while here on earth.

I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying I never sin. I am saying that even as weak as I am, God does exactly what he has promised to do and keep me from falling into it, as I trust Him to do so. You may ask "What's the difference?" and my response is that in the first, it reeks of self glorification and pride, and in the second, it is the most humbling thing to be aware of ones total incapacity to truly obey God and see Him work obedience into you simply because you look to Him to do what he promised to do.

As to what John said, I think Oscarr explained it well. John is simply re-iterating that to come to Christ, we must first admit to our sinful nature and our need for the work of Christ to be done in our hearts. If we say we have no sin that needs forgiveness, we lie and the truth is not in us.

You talk about working on the process. Tell me, what exercise do you do to reign in lustful thoughts? Our true process is to finally admit the process will lead us to total failure of transforming ourselves into the image of our Lord, and to come to Him with NO strength. it is only then, when we admit that despite our best efforts we cannot make ourselves holy, and that we need a miracle, a serpent on a stick that promises to make us totally whole. When we finally give in and look away from ourselves for the answer to holiness, and believe that our God is that good that He will GIVE us brand new hearts that can be kept from falling that our awakening will commence in earnest.

Many blessings, dear brother

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

God is not blind to our sin. I never said that in any of my posts. What I have said is that our sin does not cause as an issue with God. Because we are covered by the Righteousness of Christ. God chooses to view us only according to the Righteousness of Christ that clothes us. The way to get the victory over our sinful habits which originate from our old nature is to abide in Christ and to maintain faith in that all our sins are laid on Christ and He has paid the full price for every sin we have and ever will commit. So when we go to God and confess sin, God will come back to us and say, "I am not going to deal with you on the basis of that sin because Jesus paid the price for it therefore it belongs to Him, so don't be a thief by taking from Jesus what is His. Also, I am not angry with you over that sin because all my anger has been poured on on Christ and there is none left in me; therefore all I have for you is goodness, patience and kindness."

Oscarr, here is where our paths diverge. Scripturally, God does indeed see our sins and calls for us to confess the sin, repent of it and turn back to Him. The letter to the Laodecians is full proof of that. Their hearts were hardened by sin and God told them exactly what He saw. As believers, we still have a choice. If we count on the fact that God is never upset at our continuing in sin, we are turning the grace of God into lasciviousness. The key question is yieldedness. Who are we yielded to? If we yield ourselves to sin, we are told we are still servants of sin. But praise God when we yield ourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead, and believe that sin has no dominion over us, then when the temptation comes....and it will.... we resist satan with the truth of who we are. We overcome by combining the blood of the lamb with the words of OUR testimony.

The question is not whether God will forgive us and cleanse us if, when we do sin, we turn back to Him with our whole hearts. The question before us is....can Jesus actually keep us from sinning to begin with? Do we really believe the old us is dead? Not dying but dead? Until we arm ourselves with the truth that sin has no more dominion or authority over us to make us sin again, we will constantly slip. Yes, God is there for us if we sin.... IF....not when. But may none of us stop digging until we have grabbed hold of the truth of who we are.... new creatures who now obey God for it is now our very nature. Unless we discover the strength He actually has given us... full armor.... a gleaming sword... and a shield of faith that ensures us that no arrow cast at us will find its mark and cause us to fall, we will still experience an up and down, black, dog, white dog battle that is so common to believers today. Eventually our faith wavers and weakens, our shield comes down and the arrows begin to stick us again. Is there a way out of this place of partial victory, partial failure?Is it possible that God can indeed keep us holy so that we really do not sin any more... 24/7? The word tells us yes. Will we climb out of the boat and do what God has very clearly asked of us. Will we reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God? That is where the blessing is found, and when we do, we will be amazed at how deeply grace actually goes.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr, here is where our paths diverge. Scripturally, God does indeed see our sins and calls for us to confess the sin, repent of it and turn back to Him. The letter to the Laodecians is full proof of that. Their hearts were hardened by sin and God told them exactly what He saw. As believers, we still have a choice. If we count on the fact that God is never upset at our continuing in sin, we are turning the grace of God into lasciviousness. The key question is yieldedness. Who are we yielded to? If we yield ourselves to sin, we are told we are still servants of sin. But praise God when we yield ourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead, and believe that sin has no dominion over us, then when the temptation comes....and it will.... we resist satan with the truth of who we are. We overcome by combining the blood of the lamb with the words of OUR testimony.

The question is not whether God will forgive us and cleanse us if, when we do sin, we turn back to Him with our whole hearts. The question before us is....can Jesus actually keep us from sinning to begin with? Do we really believe the old us is dead? Not dying but dead? Until we arm ourselves with the truth that sin has no more dominion or authority over us to make us sin again, we will constantly slip. Yes, God is there for us if we sin.... IF....not when. But may none of us stop digging until we have grabbed hold of the truth of who we are.... new creatures who now obey God for it is now our very nature. Unless we discover the strength He actually has given us... full armor.... a gleaming sword... and a shield of faith that ensures us that no arrow cast at us will find its mark and cause us to fall, we will still experience an up and down, black, dog, white dog battle that is so common to believers today. Eventually our faith wavers and weakens, our shield comes down and the arrows begin to stick us again. Is there a way out of this place of partial victory, partial failure?Is it possible that God can indeed keep us holy so that we really do not sin any more... 24/7? The word tells us yes. Will we climb out of the boat and do what God has very clearly asked of us. Will we reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God? That is where the blessing is found, and when we do, we will be amazed at how deeply grace actually goes.

Blessings,

Gideon

You don't seem to be talking about the normal believer who is daily wanting to follow the will of God for his life. You seem to be talking about people who have fallen away from Christ back into the world and then needing to get right with God and to come back to Christ. You quoted the example of the Laodecians, who had generally fallen away from the first love. This is not the experience of a believer who is going on for God. What you seem to be saying is that ordinary believers have a habit of yielding to sin. I think that you are confusing different issues and trying to make one fit to suit everyone. You have not resolved the issue of John saying that he who is born of God does not sin. What you are saying is that those who are born of God do sin, and that is contradicting what John is saying. Who is mistaken here?

You are quoting John 8:34 where Jesus says that the person who commits sin is the servant of sin. He spoke that to Old Covenant Jews. Note what Paul says in Romans 6:19 and 20:
19"I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

Paul is here talking to New Covenant believers and is describing their state before they came to Christ and what they should do now that they have become Christian believers. Now that believers are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, they are no longer slaves to sin. If you think that you are still the servant of sin as you have said, then you are not clothed with the righteousness of Christ. You cannot serve two masters, either you serve one or the other, sin or righteousness. The problem with quoting Scriptures out of context is that you make the Bible say something different to what it actually says, and you put words in the mouth of Jesus things He didn't mean for New Covenant believers.

 

[Gideons300]

You don't seem to be talking about the normal believer who is daily wanting to follow the will of God for his life. You seem to be talking about people who have fallen away from Christ back into the world and then needing to get right with God and to come back to Christ. You quoted the example of the Laodecians, who had generally fallen away from the first love. This is not the experience of a believer who is going on for God. What you seem to be saying is that ordinary believers have a habit of yielding to sin. I think that you are confusing different issues and trying to make one fit to suit everyone. You have not resolved the issue of John saying that he who is born of God does not sin. What you are saying is that those who are born of God do sin, and that is contradicting what John is saying. Who is mistaken here?

You are quoting John 8:34 where Jesus says that the person who commits sin is the servant of sin. He spoke that to Old Covenant Jews. Note what Paul says in Romans 6:19 and 20:
19"I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

Paul is here talking to New Covenant believers and is describing their state before they came to Christ and what they should do now that they have become Christian believers. Now that believers are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, they are no longer slaves to sin. If you think that you are still the servant of sin as you have said, then you are not clothed with the righteousness of Christ. You cannot serve two masters, either you serve one or the other, sin or righteousness. The problem with quoting Scriptures out of context is that you make the Bible say something different to what it actually says, and you put words in the mouth of Jesus things He didn't mean for New Covenant believers.

I am confused. Were the people written to in the letters of Revelations Christians? Were the Laodecians Christians. For if they were, then what you are saying is simply not true. It cannot be. God saw, their state and the danger they were in. He rebuked them in love. How can this be if they were made holy and God no longer saw their sin?

It concerns me that some have decided that because Jesus had not yet died on the cross, all that he then spoke was for people under the law. I would counsel great are in accepting that belief. Once we have made exceptions as to reasons why certain scriptures need not apply to us, the die has been cast and satan now has ample maneuvering room to lead us deeper and deeper into error.

You said in a post earlier that it is important we choose to trust what God says even if it defies our logical minds. I agree. However, when it is clear that God tells us that He will not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist, and that He will keep us from falling, and that He has delivered us from the power of sin, and that our shields of faith will quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy, H is not talking how He sees us, but how we ACT. He that doeth righteousness is righteous. That is the acid test. It is about bringing forth fruit. A good tree bears good fruits. If we say we have fellowship ith Him and continue to walk in sin, John says we are liars. It has nothing to do with positional holiness. That is of no value to us if we do not long to be holy and to cease from all sin. In truth, it is the opposite, a testimony against us.

God has provided a way for us to stop sinning. Do we want it? Do we hunger like Paul did in Romans 7, desperate for pure hearts, longing with intense desire to actually walk pleasing to God all day, every single day? If we do not, and are content in our "humanity" yet still want to blanket ourselves with God's holiness to quiet and eliminate any conviction from the holy Spirit, we are using God for OUR pleasure, not seeking to lose our life so we may finally find His life in us instead. Dangerous ground.

To the one who is still walking with self calling the shots, even if it be a religious self, we still must hate our life to find His in us. To try to sidestep such a call of God by saying our new covenant permits such abuse and all is still well, the result, sadly, is a Christian with a Laodecian spirit. He or she literally is blinded, and knows not that he may think God sees him as holy, but does not realize at all that in God's eyes, his pride and contentment without possessing true godliness is literally putting his soul at great risk.

This is the most dangerous place of all for a believer. Having a conscience seared so that no conviction can get through to bring us to our knees so that we can humbly repent and cry out to God to make us free indeed, just as He promised. Do we long to be free as Jesus described it in John 8? It is a driving need for us? Do we see ourselves as wretched men if sin still rules over us? Or, have we been convinced that there is no danger at all, for there is no guilt, because sin has done what sin does for believers.... it hardens the heart.

Again, I clearly ask. Can God keep us from sinning by so filling us with Him that we choose to take the way of escape every time? I do not know about you but for myself, the only safe place I have ever found from the power of the flesh is to agree with God and reckon myself dead to sin. I am no longer in the flesh but in the spirit, and if that is true, I now owe the flesh a big fat nothing! Praise God! Not just dead to the guilt of sin. Dead to sin, period. God has been faithful these last seven or so years to keep me, in direct relationship to my believing His clear promises. I am nothing special. The truth is, I suspect my old nature was far more corrupt than almost any here. But it makes no matter. If we trust Him, He will keep us from sin. I pray faith is awakened in the hearts of His children to believe for such a miracle.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am confused. Were the people written to in the letters of Revelations Christians? Were the Laodecians Christians. For if they were, then what you are saying is simply not true. It cannot be. God saw, their state and the danger they were in. He rebuked them in love. How can this be if they were made holy and God no longer saw their sin?

Obviously these Christians were living far below their privilege in Christ, as are many Christians today. They had left their first love and were professing Christianity but were progressively being drawn back into the world. Perhaps they had a formalised religiosity without having a heart for Christ any more. It looks they were going through the motions of religion, like those who have a form of godliness but deny the power of it. When I am talking about people born of God being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, I am talking about "on-fire" dedicated Christians who have maintained their first love. These ones may still be righteous in Christ, but they were falling short in actually practising righteousness and Jesus was wanting to restore them to the right place with God where they should have been.

It concerns me that some have decided that because Jesus had not yet died on the cross, all that he then spoke was for people under the law. I would counsel great are in accepting that belief. Once we have made exceptions as to reasons why certain scriptures need not apply to us, the die has been cast and satan now has ample maneuvering room to lead us deeper and deeper into error.

The transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant happened at the cross of Christ. The Old Testament scriptures that speak of requiring that people live by the Ten Commandments are written for New Covenant Christians so as to educate them, but they are not written to them. Some in Paul's time misunderstood that and went to the Gentile churches requiring that converts be circumcised and keep to the Law of Moses, which is actually the Ten Commandments. Paul condemned them as false apostles.

When Jesus was on earth, who was He talking to? Unconverted Jews still under the Law. He knew that, because he told John at the Last Supper that when He goes, He will send the Holy Spirit to come and lead them into all truth. This means that Jesus recognised that He was not speaking full New Covenant truth to the Jews, but said that the Holy Spirit would come and apply what He said to be consistent with the New Covenant in which the Law became obsolete.

You said in a post earlier that it is important we choose to trust what God says even if it defies our logical minds. I agree. However, when it is clear that God tells us that He will not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist, and that He will keep us from falling, and that He has delivered us from the power of sin, and that our shields of faith will quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy, H is not talking how He sees us, but how we ACT. He that doeth righteousness is righteous. That is the acid test. It is about bringing forth fruit. A good tree bears good fruits. If we say we have fellowship ith Him and continue to walk in sin, John says we are liars. It has nothing to do with positional holiness. That is of no value to us if we do not long to be holy and to cease from all sin. In truth, it is the opposite, a testimony against us.

1. Much of our Christian faith is illogical. We believe in and pray to a Person we cannot see. That is illogical. We speak in tongues a language we have never learned. That is illogical. We pray for people and seek for instant healing of terminal diseases. That is illogical. The problem with today's church is that it has been corrupted with the pagan teachings of Aristotle, who said that nothing is real unless we can logically prove it. This influence caused the supernatural gifts to decline and fall on their sides by the fifth century A.D. Our Western thought is based on modern science, and the foundation of that is Aristotle's philosophy. Everything has to be proved by empirical evidence before it can be treated as real. Most of our Christian faith would fail to be proved as real if that was applied to it. So, yes, we cannot depend on our logical and rational minds to ensure that what we believe is the truth. We have to have complete faith in what God has said in scripture.

2. I agree that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our ability to cope, and that the shield of faith will quench the fiery darts of the enemy.

3. I don't agree with your statement that we are righteous because we practice righteousness. It is the other way around. We practice righteousness because we are righteous in Christ. Our righteousness does not depend on what we do, but what we are in Christ. What we do depends on who we are in Christ. If righteousness depends on what we do, we are being self-righteous and not truly righteous in Christ. We can't be righteous by what we do, otherwise why did Jesus have to come and die for us? We have righteousness bestowed on us, and from that foundation, we develop the practice of righteousness.

God has provided a way for us to stop sinning. Do we want it? Do we hunger like Paul did in Romans 7, desperate for pure hearts, longing with intense desire to actually walk pleasing to God all day, every single day? If we do not, and are content in our "humanity" yet still want to blanket ourselves with God's holiness to quiet and eliminate any conviction from the holy Spirit, we are using God for OUR pleasure, not seeking to lose our life so we may finally find His life in us instead. Dangerous ground.

God has provided a way from us to stop sinning. He killed our old sinning nature by nailing it to the cross with Jesus.

To the one who is still walking with self calling the shots, even if it be a religious self, we still must hate our life to find His in us. To try to sidestep such a call of God by saying our new covenant permits such abuse and all is still well, the result, sadly, is a Christian with a Laodecian spirit. He or she literally is blinded, and knows not that he may think God sees him as holy, but does not realize at all that in God's eyes, his pride and contentment without possessing true godliness is literally putting his soul at great risk.

A person with a Laodecian spirit is walking away from his conversion to Christ. He is in danger of treading Christ underfoot. I'll deal with the last two paragraphs when I get more time.

 

[Soyeong]

1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Notice that it doesn't say that no one who abides in him sins, but that no one who abides in him keeps on sinning or makes a practice of sinning. This is talking about willful, ongoing, unrepentant sin, not about someone who sins and then repents. Similarly, practicing righteousness doesn't mean that we have a perfectly obey law, but that it is our goal to obey it. A sinner is someone who practices lawlessness, so if we instead practice righteousness, then we are not a sinner, even though we still sin and repent.

Before Christ, we were slaves to our sin nature and were unable to keep from sinning, but Christi set us free from our sin nature's mastery over us so that we could be free to become slaves of another master. We still have a sin nature, which is why we still transgress the law, but it is no longer our master. We are free to become slaves of obedience leading to righteousness, and slaves of righteousness, leading to sanctification (Romans 6:15-19).

 

[Chicken Little]

As some of you have been painfully aware, I have been quite adamant on the subject of sin in a believer. On the way home from work on the train, I got to thinking about this passage in 1 John.


…8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

So, we see in verse 8, it says that the one who practices sin is of the devil. That's pretty straight talking from John. I have been saying that genuine believers do not sin, and some have argued with me saying that believers do sin. But John here is saying that those who sin are of the devil!

John goes on in verse 9 to say that no-one who is born of God practices sin, and that he cannot sin, because he is born of God. He says this is the difference between children of God and the children of the devil. So, it seems that those who say believers sin and yet are children of God are being contradictory, because John is saying that those who sin cannot be children of God, but are children of the devil!

This brings a real problem for us, because if we say we do not sin, we seem not to be accepting the reality which our logical mind tells us about ourselves. And the Scripture says that if we say we have no sin we are deceive ourselves and are not of the truth. Now that is contradicting verse 9 because it says quite clearly that those who are born of God do not sin. How we we reconcile that?

And yet, if we say we do sin, then we are admitting that we are not really children of God but children of the devil, because John is saying that those who sin are children of the devil. But our logical minds tells us that we do sin, and yet we have the assurance that we are children of God and not of the devil, so how are we going to reconcile that?

The question we have to ask ourselves is, which part of us does the sinning, and does God take any notice of it if He views us as His children?

It comes right down to this: Do we believe our logical minds or do we believe the Scripture? If we say we are born of God and then say that we still sin, then we must be telling the truth on one side and lying on the other, because both cannot be true at the same time. It is the same as saying that black is white!

My view is this. Jesus died on the cross for our sin. It was all laid on Him. In return, we became totally new creatures, clothed in the righteousness of Christ. God does not take notice of our sins because He refuses to see them. The righteousness of Christ is blocking his sight of them. He said, "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow". In fact, our sins have become so transparent, they have become invisible. He also said that our sins are buried in the deepest sea of God's forgetfulness. So as far as God is concerned, we do not sin, because even if we think we do from our standards, they are so invisible to God that He does not even see them. This is why John can say that those who are born of God do not sin.

So, if you believe that you are still a sinner, as far as John is concerned, you are still thinking like a child of the devil, and not as a child of God. You cannot be born of God and still be a sinner. It is a matter of whether you choose to believe your logical mind which is grounded in the world and the five senses, or whether you believe the Scripture. The Scripture says that you do not sin if you are a child of God. What God expects is that you receive that by faith.

If you cannot believe the Scripture as spoken by John, then you are not yet perfect in faith. If you cannot believe the Scripture on this basic point of whether you are a new creation in Christ or a sinner, then how can you believe the Scripture in any other area? If you cannot believe the Scripture but rather trust in your logical mind, in some things, and you say you believe the Scripture in others things, then you are, as James says, double minded, and you can't expect to receive anything from the Lord.

This is why many of our churches have not risen about being mere powerless religious organisations. All they have is empty, pious, religious words, but no power to back them up. Why should God back people up who refuse to believe what He tells them, and refuses to do what He commands? That's what Abraham said to the Rich man, "If they won't believe Moses and the Prophets [ie: the Scriptures], then they won't believe even if someone rose from the dead coming to tell them."

And if you won't believe the Scriptures, then don't expect God to be involved with you in your religious meetings and activities, because He will only involve Himself with people of faith who believe what He says and follows His commands.,

I veiw this dilemma like I view the Movie Avartar.. the man was broken and looking for Life and very discouraged..
when he stumbled upon life by accident ( his brothers choices) , he poured all of himself into the new nation, into the new laws , into the new being ,Into a New seeing of reality and His life was his new being . It didn't change who that broken human being was or what his old being was and or that it was very broken and in a very broken and sick nation . But he stopped living in his old being he stopped sinning like all those around him , it counted his old man dead..... he considered it all dead! and he only loved his new nation and his new laws and the very real connections and interconnectedness in that world.
it seems to me even James cameron understands the laws of salvation in his soul too . because that is what we all do , we pour all our heart into what we believe in. He did before he had the new life... but the old broken world couldn't or wouldn't fix him but they sure would use him up and leave him hopeless and lonely .

 

[Soyeong]

I want to bring up another interesting point to consider.

As Gentile believers we are in a different place as to what is identified as sin in us.

The law gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), without the law we wouldn't even know what sin was (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), so if you want to identify what sin is, then you need to look no further than the law.

In Acts, Paul identifies some false apostles who went to the Galatian churches demanding that believers be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved. Now the Law is summarised in the Ten Commandments. So Paul viewed those who taught that Gentile believers are required to keep the Ten Commandments as false. This shows that Paul did not require the Gentile believers in the Galatian churches to keep the Ten Commandments.

There is a world of difference between saying that you don't need to keep the law in order to be saved and that you don't need to keep the law. That was never the purpose of the law, so the excuse that we don't need to keep the law because it doesn't save us wouldn't have worked for Moses any more than it will work for us. Paul argued in Romans 4:1-8 that Abraham and David were justified by faith and because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, every last person who has ever been justified has been justified by faith, including Moses before the law was given to him.

The purposes of the law, among others, are to instruct how to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, to makes us aware of our sin in violation of that conduct, to magnify our sin in rebellion of that conduct, to condemn our sin, to provide a temporary remedy for our sin, and to point to the one who can provide a permanent remedy. Being declared righteous means to be declared to have a right standing before God, but practicing righteousness or training in righteousness is how God wants those who He has declared righteous to conduct themselves. So practicing righteousness in obedience to the law is not about justification, but about sanctification, as we are transformed into becoming more like Christ in his perfect obedience to God's law.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

At the time Timothy was a child, the only Scripture that had been written yet was the OT, so Paul was saying that the law was profitable for teaching and training in righteousness and how to do every good work. In Ephesians 2:8-10, he could have equivalently said that we are declared righteous by grace through faith, not by practicing righteousness, but rather we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of practicing righteousness. The good works that God prepared in advance for us to do are what He equipped us to do in His law.

So there was a big argument about it, and Paul went to Jerusalem to confer with the Apostles there to sort things out. This resulted in the First Council of Jerusalem. They had quite a discussion about it and the conclusion according to James was, in Acts 15:20:

"We should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."

When an employer highers a new employee, they don't start by teaching them everything that they were ever need to know about how to do their job up front, but rather they start by teaching them the basics, with the understanding that they will learn how to do the rest on the job. That's the same line of reasoning that Paul was using in Acts 15:19-21. He was saying that he doesn't want to make things difficult for those Gentiles who are turning to God, so that those who were unfamiliar with God's instructions for how to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct wouldn't be overwhelmed. He excuses this by saying in verse 21 that they would continue to learn about Moses every Sabbath in the synagogue, which implies that they were already keeping the Sabbath. So this is a list for new believers to start off with, not a list for mature believers.

If you hold hard to those four laws being all that's required, then you would exclude all of the commands of Jesus, as well as other commands directed at them in the NT. However, if you say that other laws were obviously included, then I'd agree with you. The list of four commands has the appearance of being a specific list for a certain purpose, not an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required.

Actually, Paul gives a list of the works of the flesh in Galatians 5. If a person is exhibiting those attributes, then one can assume that he or she is in the flesh and not the Spirit. Romans 8:8 tells us that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. It is not that He gets angry with us, but it means that He can't do much with us while we are in the flesh. Being in the flesh is trying to live according to the Law, allowing our sinful nature to rule us, instead of abiding in Christ and living by the faith of the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

No, being in the flesh is not trying to live according to God's law, but rather it does not submit to it.

 

[Winepress777]

As some of you have been painfully aware, I have been quite adamant on the subject of sin in a believer. On the way home from work on the train, I got to thinking about this passage in 1 John.


…8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

So, we see in verse 8, it says that the one who practices sin is of the devil. That's pretty straight talking from John. I have been saying that genuine believers do not sin, and some have argued with me saying that believers do sin. But John here is saying that those who sin are of the devil!

John goes on in verse 9 to say that no-one who is born of God practices sin, and that he cannot sin, because he is born of God. He says this is the difference between children of God and the children of the devil. So, it seems that those who say believers sin and yet are children of God are being contradictory, because John is saying that those who sin cannot be children of God, but are children of the devil!

This brings a real problem for us, because if we say we do not sin, we seem not to be accepting the reality which our logical mind tells us about ourselves. And the Scripture says that if we say we have no sin we are deceive ourselves and are not of the truth. Now that is contradicting verse 9 because it says quite clearly that those who are born of God do not sin. How we we reconcile that?

And yet, if we say we do sin, then we are admitting that we are not really children of God but children of the devil, because John is saying that those who sin are children of the devil. But our logical minds tells us that we do sin, and yet we have the assurance that we are children of God and not of the devil, so how are we going to reconcile that?

The question we have to ask ourselves is, which part of us does the sinning, and does God take any notice of it if He views us as His children?

It comes right down to this: Do we believe our logical minds or do we believe the Scripture? If we say we are born of God and then say that we still sin, then we must be telling the truth on one side and lying on the other, because both cannot be true at the same time. It is the same as saying that black is white!

My view is this. Jesus died on the cross for our sin. It was all laid on Him. In return, we became totally new creatures, clothed in the righteousness of Christ. God does not take notice of our sins because He refuses to see them. The righteousness of Christ is blocking his sight of them. He said, "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow". In fact, our sins have become so transparent, they have become invisible. He also said that our sins are buried in the deepest sea of God's forgetfulness. So as far as God is concerned, we do not sin, because even if we think we do from our standards, they are so invisible to God that He does not even see them. This is why John can say that those who are born of God do not sin.

So, if you believe that you are still a sinner, as far as John is concerned, you are still thinking like a child of the devil, and not as a child of God. You cannot be born of God and still be a sinner. It is a matter of whether you choose to believe your logical mind which is grounded in the world and the five senses, or whether you believe the Scripture. The Scripture says that you do not sin if you are a child of God. What God expects is that you receive that by faith.

If you cannot believe the Scripture as spoken by John, then you are not yet perfect in faith. If you cannot believe the Scripture on this basic point of whether you are a new creation in Christ or a sinner, then how can you believe the Scripture in any other area? If you cannot believe the Scripture but rather trust in your logical mind, in some things, and you say you believe the Scripture in others things, then you are, as James says, double minded, and you can't expect to receive anything from the Lord.

This is why many of our churches have not risen about being mere powerless religious organisations. All they have is empty, pious, religious words, but no power to back them up. Why should God back people up who refuse to believe what He tells them, and refuses to do what He commands? That's what Abraham said to the Rich man, "If they won't believe Moses and the Prophets [ie: the Scriptures], then they won't believe even if someone rose from the dead coming to tell them."

And if you won't believe the Scriptures, then don't expect God to be involved with you in your religious meetings and activities, because He will only involve Himself with people of faith who believe what He says and follows His commands.,

Amen!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God has provided a way for us to stop sinning. Do we want it? Do we hunger like Paul did in Romans 7, desperate for pure hearts, longing with intense desire to actually walk pleasing to God all day, every single day? If we do not, and are content in our "humanity" yet still want to blanket ourselves with God's holiness to quiet and eliminate any conviction from the holy Spirit, we are using God for OUR pleasure, not seeking to lose our life so we may finally find His life in us instead. Dangerous ground.

Paul's experience in Romans 7 describes his progression from sin-consciousness to knowing his place and freedom in Christ. He doesn't stay in the struggle. He resolves it by thanking God that he is in Christ. This ends the struggle against sin for him. If we are still hungering, we are coming short of abiding in Christ. Jesus said that blessed are they that hunger for they shall be filled. This came true when He died on the cross, and every person who is converted under the New Covenant is filled with the Spirit and therefore does not hunger after God. If a person is still hungering then they are not believing that God in the Person of the Holy Spirit is living right inside of them, therefore they don't need to hunger after someone who is right within them and He will never leave or forsake them.

If we are not wanting with all our hearts to walk pleasing to God every day, then we are either not filled with the Spirit, or that we don't believe that we are filled with the Spirit. If someone is using God for our pleasure it means that there is something not right with our conversion to Christ or that there is something seriously lacking in their experience of God. They are coming short of knowing God for who He really is for them.

To the one who is still walking with self calling the shots, even if it be a religious self, we still must hate our life to find His in us. To try to sidestep such a call of God by saying our new covenant permits such abuse and all is still well, the result, sadly, is a Christian with a Laodecian spirit. He or she literally is blinded, and knows not that he may think God sees him as holy, but does not realize at all that in God's eyes, his pride and contentment without possessing true godliness is literally putting his soul at great risk.

I have serious doubts whether the Christian you describe is really a Christian at all. He might have religion but He is not walking according to his calling in Christ. The problem is not a Christian's standing with God, but it is in the person himself. He has not come through the strait gate of conversion, but come over the wall of religion, even though his religion has all the appearances of being truly Christian. A person can pretend to be a great Christian believer but God is not fooled. He looks on the heart.

This is the most dangerous place of all for a believer. Having a conscience seared so that no conviction can get through to bring us to our knees so that we can humbly repent and cry out to God to make us free indeed, just as He promised. Do we long to be free as Jesus described it in John 8? It is a driving need for us? Do we see ourselves as wretched men if sin still rules over us? Or, have we been convinced that there is no danger at all, for there is no guilt, because sin has done what sin does for believers.... it hardens the heart.

You are describing someone who is weak in faith. He does not believe that he has good standing with God in Christ. If sin rules over us, the Christ is not Lord of our lives. We cannot reform ourselves. If we could, Jesus would not have had to come and die for us and have our sins laid on Him. If a person is trying to develop sinlessness in himself, then he is trying to be righteous by self-effort, and this leads to pride and self-righteousness.

We don't have guilt over sin because God has removed all the guilt of sin and place it on Jesus. I think we need to come to a much deeper understanding of what Jesus really did for us when He died on the cross for us, and rose from the dead to be our living Saviour.

Again, I clearly ask. Can God keep us from sinning by so filling us with Him that we choose to take the way of escape every time? I do not know about you but for myself, the only safe place I have ever found from the power of the flesh is to agree with God and reckon myself dead to sin. I am no longer in the flesh but in the spirit, and if that is true, I now owe the flesh a big fat nothing! Praise God! Not just dead to the guilt of sin. Dead to sin, period. God has been faithful these last seven or so years to keep me, in direct relationship to my believing His clear promises. I am nothing special. The truth is, I suspect my old nature was far more corrupt than almost any here. But it makes no matter. If we trust Him, He will keep us from sin. I pray faith is awakened in the hearts of His children to believe for such a miracle.

We are on the same page here.

 

[Winepress777]

Is this to Christians or non-Christians?: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

Again, was this to believers?

John also shows that sin shouldn't be taken lightly, but needs to be confessed by the Christian "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9)

Again, who was this written to? To take one verse that appears to contradict all these means that it's not understood in the correct context.

It is to whoever knows they need to receive it. One who sins, needs to receive it. One who doesn't sin any more because they've confessed their sins and have been cleansed from unrighteousness, who "goes and sins no more", thanks the Lord that when he needed that scripture it was there. But he might now be living in righteousness, going forth beyond the basic first principals of repentence and baptisms. A man of God will mature into sinless righteousness, if he is maturing properly, by being dead and Christ being alive in him. A progression of overcoming by faith and dying to self. But a man unstable, who goes back and sins again and again, well there you have a devil child as John says. Things are not good for that kind of "Christian"...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is to whoever knows they need to receive it. One who sins, needs to receive it. One who doesn't sin any more because they've confessed their sins and have been cleansed from unrighteousness, who "goes and sins no more", thanks the Lord that when he needed that scripture it was there.

You have described Christian conversion.

But he might now be living in righteousness, going forth beyond the basic first principals of repentence and baptisms.

This describes the normal Christian life.

A man of God will mature into sinless righteousness, if he is maturing properly, by being dead and Christ being alive in him.

We don't mature into righteousness. We have had the righteousness of Christ bestowed on us. We cannot make ourselves dead. Our old nature was killed by God when He nailed it to the cross with Jesus. We are alive in Christ because we are already dead in ourselves. This is a stance of faith.

A progression of overcoming by faith and dying to self.

I say again. The death to self is not a progression. It is a one-time event when Jesus died on the cross and our self was crucified with Him. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ...etc" The progression is by faith as we develop into what God already sees us to be in Christ. We call this progressive sanctification.

But a man unstable, who goes back and sins again and again, well there you have a devil child as John says. Things are not good for that kind of "Christian"...

The unstable man is one who does not understand or believe his own standing in Christ, or else all he has is just religion and is not genuinely converted to Christ.

John did not say that the person who sins has a devil child. He says that the person who sins is a child of the devil. So if a person is a child of the devil, he is not converted to Christ. The belief that as children of God we do not sin is a stance of faith and not from our logical or rational mind. Our rational mind tells us that we still sin, because our old nature is still tied to us. For us it is still alive, but to God it is dead and buried. What God wants us to do is to view our old nature in the same way He sees it - dead and buried. What our old nature does has no relevance to God. He doesn't care about it, because in His sight it is dead and buried. We are the ones through unbelief go and dig it up and get all hassled about it and try to struggle against it thinking that it will get in the way of our Christian lives. But if we come to a place of faith where we believe that it is dead and buried, we stop seeing our sinning nature as something that will cause God to break fellowship with us. God is living within us and He said that He will never leave us nor forsake us. He has moved in permanently. Some people think that God is so sensitive that He has his bags packed at the door, ready to leave every time we sin. But God is not like that. He will transform us into the Christ-like people we should be by sticking with us and exercising His goodness, patience, kindness and gentleness by continuing to encourage and work with us until we are fully walking according to the calling in Christ that he has called us to.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul's experience in Romans 7 describes his progression from sin-consciousness to knowing his place and freedom in Christ. He doesn't stay in the struggle. He resolves it by thanking God that he is in Christ. This ends the struggle against sin for him. If we are still hungering, we are coming short of abiding in Christ. Jesus said that blessed are they that hunger for they shall be filled. This came true when He died on the cross, and every person who is converted under the New Covenant is filled with the Spirit and therefore does not hunger after God. If a person is still hungering then they are not believing that God in the Person of the Holy Spirit is living right inside of them, therefore they don't need to hunger after someone who is right within them and He will never leave or forsake them.

Paul's struggle was not over, but in Christ it is no longer a losing battle.

We don't mature into righteousness. We have had the righteousness of Christ bestowed on us. We cannot make ourselves dead. Our old nature was killed by God when He nailed it to the cross with Jesus. We are alive in Christ because we are already dead in ourselves. This is a stance of faith.

This goes back to the distinction between being declared righteous and practicing righteousness or training in righteousness. By grace through faith we are declared to have right standing before God, but we still need to mature into having a righteous conduct as we go through sanctification.

John did not say that the person who sins has a devil child. He says that the person who sins is a child of the devil.

Again, he didn't that the person who sins is a child of the devil, but the person who practices sin.

 

[Winepress777]

You have described Christian conversion.



This describes the normal Christian life.



We don't mature into righteousness. We have had the righteousness of Christ bestowed on us. We cannot make ourselves dead. Our old nature was killed by God when He nailed it to the cross with Jesus. We are alive in Christ because we are already dead in ourselves. This is a stance of faith.



I say again. The death to self is not a progression. It is a one-time event when Jesus died on the cross and our self was crucified with Him. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ...etc" The progression is by faith as we develop into what God already sees us to be in Christ. We call this progressive sanctification.



The unstable man is one who does not understand or believe his own standing in Christ, or else all he has is just religion and is not genuinely converted to Christ.

John did not say that the person who sins has a devil child. He says that the person who sins is a child of the devil. So if a person is a child of the devil, he is not converted to Christ. The belief that as children of God we do not sin is a stance of faith and not from our logical or rational mind. Our rational mind tells us that we still sin, because our old nature is still tied to us. For us it is still alive, but to God it is dead and buried. What God wants us to do is to view our old nature in the same way He sees it - dead and buried. What our old nature does has no relevance to God. He doesn't care about it, because in His sight it is dead and buried. We are the ones through unbelief go and dig it up and get all hassled about it and try to struggle against it thinking that it will get in the way of our Christian lives. But if we come to a place of faith where we believe that it is dead and buried, we stop seeing our sinning nature as something that will cause God to break fellowship with us. God is living within us and He said that He will never leave us nor forsake us. He has moved in permanently. Some people think that God is so sensitive that He has his bags packed at the door, ready to leave every time we sin. But God is not like that. He will transform us into the Christ-like people we should be by sticking with us and exercising His goodness, patience, kindness and gentleness by continuing to encourage and work with us until we are fully walking according to the calling in Christ that he has called us to.

You will notice I have been agreeing with you Oscar. You have good understanding. I'm not sure you want to suggest I wasn't absolutely accurate in what I presented. I didn't say "he has a devil child" I said one who sins, there "you have a devil child". And for sure, we DO MATURE in righteousness exactly as I said. Greek "telios". Here is what the Book says about that, this is what I'm referring to precisely;

1 Corinthians 14:20

Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature.

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.


1 Peter 2:2

Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—


Hebrews 5:14

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Hebrews 6:1

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 5:12-13

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.

2 Corinthians 7:1

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


Romans 12:2

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

2 Corinthians 3:18

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

etc etc. Blessings

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul's struggle was not over, but in Christ it is no longer a losing battle.
This goes back to the distinction between being declared righteous and practicing righteousness or training in righteousness. By grace through faith we are declared to have right standing before God, but we still need to mature into having a righteous conduct as we go through sanctification.
Again, he didn't that the person who sins is a child of the devil, but the person who practices sin.

I think we are on the same page here.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You will notice I have been agreeing with you Oscar. You have good understanding. I'm not sure you want to suggest I wasn't absolutely accurate in what I presented. I didn't say "he has a devil child" I said one who sins, there "you have a devil child". And for sure, we DO MATURE in righteousness exactly as I said. Greek "telios". Here is what the Book says about that, this is what I'm referring to precisely.

I think I get what you are meaning and I have no problem with it. We become children of God with a totally new nature in Christ and it is this new nature that does not sin. We live by this new nature by faith. But we go through progressive sanctification as we certainly to grow into maturity so that we can upgrade our learning and experience to more and more conform to Christ. So we are on the same page here too.