Do Christian Believers Sin?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As some of you have been painfully aware, I have been quite adamant on the subject of sin in a believer. On the way home from work on the train, I got to thinking about this passage in 1 John.


…8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

So, we see in verse 8, it says that the one who practices sin is of the devil. That's pretty straight talking from John. I have been saying that genuine believers do not sin, and some have argued with me saying that believers do sin. But John here is saying that those who sin are of the devil!

John goes on in verse 9 to say that no-one who is born of God practices sin, and that he cannot sin, because he is born of God. He says this is the difference between children of God and the children of the devil. So, it seems that those who say believers sin and yet are children of God are being contradictory, because John is saying that those who sin cannot be children of God, but are children of the devil!

This brings a real problem for us, because if we say we do not sin, we seem not to be accepting the reality which our logical mind tells us about ourselves. And the Scripture says that if we say we have no sin we are deceive ourselves and are not of the truth. Now that is contradicting verse 9 because it says quite clearly that those who are born of God do not sin. How we we reconcile that?

And yet, if we say we do sin, then we are admitting that we are not really children of God but children of the devil, because John is saying that those who sin are children of the devil. But our logical minds tells us that we do sin, and yet we have the assurance that we are children of God and not of the devil, so how are we going to reconcile that?

The question we have to ask ourselves is, which part of us does the sinning, and does God take any notice of it if He views us as His children?

It comes right down to this: Do we believe our logical minds or do we believe the Scripture? If we say we are born of God and then say that we still sin, then we must be telling the truth on one side and lying on the other, because both cannot be true at the same time. It is the same as saying that black is white!

My view is this. Jesus died on the cross for our sin. It was all laid on Him. In return, we became totally new creatures, clothed in the righteousness of Christ. God does not take notice of our sins because He refuses to see them. The righteousness of Christ is blocking his sight of them. He said, "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow". In fact, our sins have become so transparent, they have become invisible. He also said that our sins are buried in the deepest sea of God's forgetfulness. So as far as God is concerned, we do not sin, because even if we think we do from our standards, they are so invisible to God that He does not even see them. This is why John can say that those who are born of God do not sin.

So, if you believe that you are still a sinner, as far as John is concerned, you are still thinking like a child of the devil, and not as a child of God. You cannot be born of God and still be a sinner. It is a matter of whether you choose to believe your logical mind which is grounded in the world and the five senses, or whether you believe the Scripture. The Scripture says that you do not sin if you are a child of God. What God expects is that you receive that by faith.

If you cannot believe the Scripture as spoken by John, then you are not yet perfect in faith. If you cannot believe the Scripture on this basic point of whether you are a new creation in Christ or a sinner, then how can you believe the Scripture in any other area? If you cannot believe the Scripture but rather trust in your logical mind, in some things, and you say you believe the Scripture in others things, then you are, as James says, double minded, and you can't expect to receive anything from the Lord.

This is why many of our churches have not risen about being mere powerless religious organisations. All they have is empty, pious, religious words, but no power to back them up. Why should God back people up who refuse to believe what He tells them, and refuses to do what He commands? That's what Abraham said to the Rich man, "If they won't believe Moses and the Prophets [ie: the Scriptures], then they won't believe even if someone rose from the dead coming to tell them."

And if you won't believe the Scriptures, then don't expect God to be involved with you in your religious meetings and activities, because He will only involve Himself with people of faith who believe what He says and follows His commands.,

 

[cyberlizard]

wow the final paragraph pretty sums up it all. The only legitimate move of God is the one that moves in absolutely all essential truths which have been revealed before.

Most of the Church DO NOT believe Moses even though someone DID come back from the dead.


Steve

 

[Gregory Thompson]

the way it is put in Romans indicates that is no longer we who sin but the sin within us that is sinning.

 

[RDKirk]

For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.

But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin. -- Romans 7

Christians are not categorically "sinners" because we don't sin as a practice of our lives.

The spirit is reborn instantly, the mind is renewed day by day, the body still waits for resurrection.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.

But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin. -- Romans 7

Christians are not categorically "sinners" because we don't sin as a practice of our lives.

The spirit is reborn instantly, the mind is renewed day by day, the body still waits for resurrection.

I like the last two posts, because that is how Paul describes what is going on in his sinful nature. The key to walking with God in confidence in spite of what our old nature wants to do is to abide in Christ and believe the Word when it says that our new nature in Christ does not and cannot sin. When we start living according to our new nature, and take the attitude that our old nature is dead and buried, then we will have a greater confidence in our walk and ministry with the Lord. We will realise that God has close fellowship with us all the time and it is not interrupted in any way when our old nature sins, because He considers our old nature as dead and buried and therefore what it does has no issues with Him. He treats it as if it doesn't exist at all.

The angel said to the women at the empty tomb, "Why seek the living among the dead?" If our old nature is dead and buried, then to try to seek God to release us from our sinful habits is doing just that. We are trying to seek the living God while still wallowing around in our dead sins. Paul asks the question, "Who will set me free from this body of death?" He doesn't ask God to do that; instead he thanks God that through Christ it has already been done. He has a change of lens. Through the lens of his old nature he sees his own sinfulness and this causes great conflict in him, but when he changes his lens to see himself through his new nature in Christ, he thanks and praises God for his freedom from the debilitating effects of his old nature. He is able to reckon his old nature as dead and buried, and thereafter his life in Christ is done without even taking his old nature into account. Therefore he can say that the part of him that is born of God does not and cannot sin, and this gives him the confidence that he is a child of God and not a child of the devil.

There is a song that goes like this:

God is my Father
Jesus is my brother
But the devil is no relation at all!

 

[Svt4Him]

Is this to Christians or non-Christians?: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

Again, was this to believers?

John also shows that sin shouldn't be taken lightly, but needs to be confessed by the Christian "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9)

Again, who was this written to? To take one verse that appears to contradict all these means that it's not understood in the correct context.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is this to Christians or non-Christians?: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

Again, was this to believers?

John also shows that sin shouldn't be taken lightly, but needs to be confessed by the Christian "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9)

Again, who was this written to? To take one verse that appears to contradict all these means that it's not understood in the correct context.

So, how do you reconcile 1 John 1:9 with 1 John 3:9? You have not sufficiently addressed the point. If 1 John 3:9 is correct, then there is nothing for born of God believers to confess. Have another read of my post.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The problem is that the Church has taught the two-nature doctrine for a very long time, and most believers are so steeped in it that they can't see anything different. The doctrine tells us that there are two opposing natures in us that fight for dominance. But the Scripture does not teach this. It teaches that the old nature is dead and buried, and so something that is dead and buried cannot oppose the new nature.

Also, the teaching of the Church has been corrupted by the pagan philosopher Plato who taught that there are two parts of us: the spiritual and the body. He teaches that the body is evil and will bring the spiritual down to its level if we allow it.

The other pagan philosopher who has corrupted the teaching of the Church is Aristotle, who taught that anything that does not agree with our logical mind is not real. It is his teaching that turned the Church away from the supernatural gifts of the Spirit.

This means that because our logical mind tells us that we are still sinning, in spite of the new nature which is born of God causes God to view us as not sinning, we don't believe any of the Scriptures that point to it, such as 1 John 3:9. Many of us ignore that verse because we don't understand it. It is illogical to us. This is why there is a sin/righteousness debate on this thread.

 

[Svt4Him]

So, how to you reconcile 1 John 1:9 with 1 John 3:9? You have not sufficiently addressed the point. If 1 John 3:9 is correct, then there is nothing for born of God believers to confess. Have another read of my post.

I don't need to reconcile anything. I'm simply pointing out what the bible says and I've asked you who that verse was written to, unbelievers or believers. And if it was written to believers, and you say there is nothing to confess, then you're ignoring a verse to fit a doctrine, and that's a very slippery slope to be on.

If you love God, you will obey Him. If you don't obey, you don't love Him. And unless you obey 100% of the time, and you only do what you see and hear God doing, then the times you disobey are in fact sin. This is a process, we work towards it, but I'm not there, maybe you are. And I certainly wasn't there the moment I was saved, that was the start of my desire to obey Him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't need to reconcile anything. I'm simply pointing out what the bible says and I've asked you who that verse was written to, unbelievers or believers. And if it was written to believers, and you say there is nothing to confess, then you're ignoring a verse to fit a doctrine, and that's a very slippery slope to be on.

If you love God, you will obey Him. If you don't obey, you don't love Him. And unless you obey 100% of the time, and you only do what you see and hear God doing, then the times you disobey are in fact sin. This is a process, we work towards it, but I'm not there, maybe you are. And I certainly wasn't there the moment I was saved, that was the start of my desire to obey Him.

But are you not ignoring 1 John 3:9? It is clearly stated, those who are born of God do not sin, because they cannot sin because they are born of God. So, if a person is disobeying God, then it means that he doesn't not love God and therefore is not converted to Christ, no matter how religious he is. Actually, continuing to think like a sinner instead of thinking as a new creation in Christ is disobeying God. Now that is something to chew on!

What you have to reconcile in yourself is the fact that born again believers do not sin in the eyes of God, and He expects us to relate to Him as new creations in Christ and not as "sinners saved by grace". If we don't relate to Him as new creations, then we are not walking worthy of the calling that we have received in Christ.

What I do confess now is not that I am a sinner, but that I am a child of God, joint heir with Christ, totally righteous in Christ, able to stand before without guilt, shame or any sense of inferiority. If I started telling God about a catalogue of sins, God would answer saying, "What in the world are you talking about? I can't see anything like that in you!"

 

[Svt4Him]

All I can say to that is what God has said: If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

All I can say to that is what God has said: If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I dealt with this point in my other thread on this topic. John is talking to those who are thinking about coming to Christ. To embrace Christ fully they must know that they are guilty sinners needing forgiveness and cleansing by the grace of God. Evangelism 101. Born again believers don't have the sin any longer. It belongs to Jesus. He paid the full price for it. If you still have sin, it is because you have stolen what belongs to him and He will come and demand it back.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Galatians 2:20 has a very important key in this. Paul says, "I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me. Faith is the key here. I say that I am clothed with the righteousness of Christ and therefore dead to sin by faith. I believe God has no issue with sin because I am abiding in Christ by faith therefore by faith I don't have to worry about sin because it has all been taken care of in Christ. If I go into unbelief and see myself in the flesh and not by faith then I see the sin in me. But I will not be pleasing God because without faith it is impossible to please Him. Therefore I need to see myself through the lens of faith and when I do, I see that sin is no longer an issue because I am born of God, therefore I do not sin as far as God is concerned. It all has to do with faith in the finished work of Jesus when He died on the cross.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I had another thought on my way to work this morning. If a person says that they still sin as a born again believer, then according to 1 John 3:9, they are not actually born again at all, because John says that the difference between a child of God and a child of the devil is that a person who is born of God does not sin. So, in religious sin-based thinking, when the person does the right thing they are a child of God and when they do the wrong thing they become a child of the devil. This means that a person can alternate being a child of God and a child of the devil many times in one day! It gets down to if you do the right thing you are blessed, and if you do the wrong thing you are cursed. This looks very much like Old Covenant theology, doesn't it? Whoopsy Doodle! We're right back under the Law!

So there has to be a better explanation. It comes right back to knowing that we sin out of our old nature, and because in Christ it is dead and buried, we cannot reform it. To get ourselves out of the quicksand of thinking we are blessed one minute and cursed the next, we have to take the step of faith that as we abide in Christ as new creations in whom there is complete righteousness, we accept in faith that God does not see us according to our sins.

What does happen when we mess up is that our sinning upsets our faith and opens the way for the devil to try and convince us that we are not real Christians. He is the accuser of the brethren. Hebrews tells us to lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily besets us. Sinning from our old nature provides obstacles to our faith in Christ, and makes it harder to have faith in the righteousness of Christ that clothes us. The devil tries to convince us that God gets angry and breaks fellowship with us every time we mess up. The truth is that we break fellowship with Him because we lose faith and trust in the cleansing and forgiveness that we have already received from Him. We stop believing that all God's anger was poured out on Christ, and that there is none left. We lose faith in the goodness and patience of God toward us, that we are the workmanship of Christ as the Holy Spirit works progressive sanctification in us. We then fall into unbelief and try to reform ourselves. Then we become frustrated and depressed because we can't reform ourselves the way we want. That's Paul's struggle: "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Many good believers have given up their Christianity because of this struggle. The sad part about that is that they did not know that their sinfulness was never an issue with God, and all they had to do was to establish their faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

 

[Gideons300]

It comes right back to knowing that we sin out of our old nature, and because in Christ it is dead and buried, we cannot reform it. To get ourselves out of the quicksand of thinking we are blessed one minute and cursed the next, we have to take the step of faith that as we abide in Christ as new creations in whom there is complete righteousness, we accept in faith that God does not see us according to our sins.-
Oscarr

My dear friend, I commend you on your looking deeper than the sin and repent, dual nature confusion much of the body of Christ has. again. Both of us agree that FREE INDEED exists for all of us and that is the freedom from sin, when the weight is finally taken off our backs and our minds renewed. What you and I espouse are so very close to one another. You too understand it is by faith that we take these things to be true. But we differ in one important area. I pray you bear with me as I try my best to articulate it, for once one sees it, and then does one thing...... put faith into action and makes THE truth his truth, something clicks into place, and everything changes. Everything.

What is the difference? You see our freedom as God being blind to the sins we may still commit, and in truth in an unlimited way, if I am understanding you correctly. God is simply blind to them. I am trying to be very clear on what you are saying. Is what I gave stated fair?

What I see is that God can and will deliver us from actually sinning. Yes, we take up our place positionally and come into agreement with God. But now He wants our faith to grow exceedingly. He asks we believe that we are freed from the power of sin. That because we are now new creatures, and our old sin natures, the one that loves to sin, to revel in self, he or she is DEAD.

Sin has lost its grip in us! It has little to do with God seeing it or not. Sin literally has no more power over us. Here is why. The strength of sin is the law, correct? And because the law has authority over a man as long as he lives, the only solution for anyone is death. We have up till now interpreted that as accepting that real overcoming is reserved for when our fleshly bodies die. Anyone who is alive still sins andthey are ruled by the law. But guess what? We are dead! The grip of sin that satan held over us is gone. We can say yes to God every time! We san stare down satan when the temptation comes that so often has slain and controlled us... and praise God...NOT give in! Brother, He has pronounced that we are light. No part dark. He is not blind to our sins if we commit them. It is far, far better. The black dog is dead, glory to God! He has promised to deliver us from evil, in direct answer to the prayer Jesus taught us to pray.

You are so very very close. I am asking you to take a leap of faith and do what you have given counsel to us to do, and it is very good counsel. If we have a choice of believing what is logical or believing what the word of God clearly says, believe. I know the challenge of hearing this. We look at ourselves and see we are so far from perfect and fear we will never do it, or will get weary trying to sustain our testimony. But we are mistaken. God takes us just like we are, with ALL of our character flaws and defects. We do not have to change one thing. Nada. What He asks for is this.

Give me control and authority....possession... of you... your very life. In return I will plant deep down into the center of you, a seed of pure light. It is alive. It grows. Do you recognize me now? It is me, the living Christ, in you. It is the new you. Simply yield. It is all I ask for. In return, I will, as the master potter, begin to form you as I intended and cause you to obey my voice, and fill you with joy, and transform you as you continue to simply, restfully, amazingly.... abide.... remain in me. Hold up your shield of faith in the truth.

Sound to good to be true? I promise you, it is real. I was bound tighter thsn most any here sever or so years ago, and God visited me. He showed me what I show you. It works. As I have stood with my shield high and trusted Him that I am new, and sin has no more power or authority over me, and resisted the devil steadfast in that faith, God has bountifully done what he promised to do, to begin to change my character from the inside out. I have far, far to be brought still, but when I look backwards at who I used to be, even today I stand in amazement of our God.

There is one thing I must say, and I mean no disrespect to you. You seem a good man and a man of grace. The teaching that says God cannot see our sins is a dangerous one if we are not longing in our hearts to actually be delivered from the old us and actually walk pure hearted before God. For those who are caught up in and blinded by a sin, they can drift further and further into evil, for there is now no fear of consequences, for God is blind to any bad they might do.There is a huge danger of sin for a believer, and God warns us of it. Of course we can be forgiven if we sin and confess it to God and repent. But the danger is that by continuing in that sin, we allow our hearts to be hardened. Our words might be the same, but faith has in essence disappeared. We are now on the path that leads away from God and yes, eventually, that life can be snuffed out, just like the good seed that truly sprouted but finally succumbed to the weeds, the shallow soil, the heat of persecution.

God is clear. It is he who does righteousness who is righteous. Abiding in Him will always lead to holy, fruit laden character in us. If it is true, and we both know the word is truth, that if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, then do you not see. It has nothing to do with what God sees. It totally has to do with what God DOES inside us. Can He actually cause the new nature we are to obey Him in all things? Is obedience, the weak link under the old covenant, done away with in the new.... or is obedience now a promise? Our God in Ezekiel 36 tells us very plainly so. He is planning an awakening of His saints in these last days who will actually become overcomers as they combine the truth of the blood of the lamb with the words of THEIR testimony. And I especially love near the end of the chapter that God the Father utters these amazing, promise filled words.

"I shall yet be inquired of by the House of Israel to do it for them."

We are about to discover the highway of holiness. An amazing journey awaits us.Short, lol, but mind numbingly amazing.
You are in my prayers, Oscar and much loved.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Svt4Him]

If you abide in Christ you do not sin. I have to admit, I don't always abide in Christ. I struggle like Paul did in Romans 8, I don't always walk according to the spirit. If you are able to, and if you only do what the Father tells you, then you and Jesus have a lot in common. But if you don't, and you claim to never sin, I still see Jesus addressing through John and saying that you're deceived and the truth is not in you. But since the argument becomes foolish after awhile, I'll go work on my process and admire anyone who has already won the race while here on earth.

 

[red bits]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Ephesians 2:8~10

 

[Svt4Him]

That is true, and that is the first cross we go through, salvation by grace through faith. But there is a second cross.

 

[red bits]

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built."
Luke 6:46~48

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." John 3:14

""For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." John 3:16~21


Ask yourself, What does it mean to call somebody LORD?

 

[Svt4Him]

It means...you call them Lord. Sorry I'm sort of simple when I read the Bible, I take them to mean what they say in the context they are written. Kinda funny that way. What does it mean when you say you watch tv?