Dispensational Framework

riverrat

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I find it interesting how SDAs and Dispys are at each others throats in a hate-hate relationship, every time I read anything from either camp, I'm left banging my head against the wall, it is a wonder (considering the amount I have read from both of them) that I can actually still function as a human being.

Does someone force you to read it?
 
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ebedmelech

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Regarding "Partial preterism doesn't believe a pretrib rapture", note that neither does futurism per se, for the reasons given in the 2nd section of post 14.
That depends on which futurism...and most ascribe to a pretrib rapture. For those who do, my response stands.

Regarding "EVERY passage that futurism points to as a rapture is really Christ coming to resurrect the righteous and the unrighteous", note that the rapture will occur right after the resurrection of the righteous...
As my response says, all you have to do is allow those passages to speak...there is NO pretrib rapture.

When it comes to the resurrection of the just and the unjust it's pretty clear *if* you don't impose on the passages. Jesus even weighs in on it with the parable of the "wheat and the tares" in Matthew 13:36-43. Pretty clear...but find Jesus ANYWHERE speaking of a rapture prior to his second coming.

Regarding "Christ coming to resurrect the righteous and the unrighteous", note that when Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
When you consider Paul is answering that question to BELIEVERS who are inquiring about resurrection...why would he even speak of the resurrection of the unrighteous? :confused:

However you're pretty much cornered when he says the first four words of 1 Corinthians 15:24 "THEN COMES THE END..."

Since John saw his Revelation vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Revelation is about future events (Revelation 1:1), not past events, there was no need to mention the past events of 70 AD.
Iranaeus' quote is ambiguous...it can be read both ways. But for the reason I stated, you cannot address. Why does John not speak to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, if he's writing in 95AD?


Note that while the corrupt aspects of first-century AD Jerusalem (and of other cities) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of first-century AD Jerusalem. For first-century AD Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was first-century AD Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had first-century AD Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had first-century AD Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).
Obviously you're totally ignoring many OT prophets who tell us Israel is the harlot as well as is figuratively Babylon. Which is why does John calls it "Mystery Babylon MOTHER OF HARLOTS"...so when you IGNORE prophecy you get distorted prophecy. Jeremiah even tells Judah she has a HARLOT'S FOREHEAD!!!
In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it's destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.
When you read Jesus lament Jerusalem as DESOLATE in Matthew 23:37-39, you should be able to understand this. At that point it became about the "Jerusalem above" as Paul tells us in Galatians 4:26. So here again you're erroneous. The passage is referring to Jerusalem where the Lord was crucified to tell you it's about to be destroyed. Do yourself a favor and understand what John means when he was told to "measure the city"...it was for destruction!
The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem, to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4)...
Pretty much fantasy because of a failure to understand apocalyptic language of scripture.

Note that just as Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents much more than just first-century AD Jerusalem, so the beast of Revelation 17:3 represents much more than just the ancient Roman empire...
Daniel gives us the four beasts and who they are...consistent with that John picks up where Daniel and Jesus leaves off. This is specific to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. We as believers already know there is but one God so when it comes to the 21st century we don't need the typification of Babylon...as I said earlier that goes back to the OT prophets symbolically calling Israel/Judah harlots...and don't forget the city is called "MYSTERY BABYLON".

The rest of your response is rehashing of past debate...no need to do that again.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Beware of the false teacher who discounts a dispensational view of the Bible and at the same time dismisses the scriptural teaching of a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia [called out ones] just before He brings His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief at the end of this present age The central theme of those who do this is to employ a bogus ruse built around the idea that Darby’s discoveries of progressive revelation related to a dispensational structure, and his alleged attempt to create the idea of what they call a “pre-tribulation rapture” …. all of this can be proven to be based upon a hoax These false teachers at the same time hold replacement theology which claims the Lord is finished with His national people Israel …. this idea cannot be supported by the prophetic scriptures of the Bible …. these related scriptures project a “dispensational” framework which is ignored by the false teacher When ever you see this combination of thinking, you can know without a doubt that that the false teacher is creating a deception for nefarious and proprietary ambitions This false teaching exists in the many different sects of professing Christianity and has given rise to off course theologies that include preterism, post-tribulation thinking, anti-Semitism, the idea of a revived European based Roman Empire, the implication of a Pope lead RCC end time “antichrist” maker, the hatching of numerous ineffective middle of the road Christian “look a likes”, and similar religious cults …. and certainly the virulent “anti-christ” religion of Islam All of these must necessarily first dismantle the Lord’s structure and framework of His written Word which reflects His ways of dealing with fallen humanity from the beginning to the ending of the same …. this behavior then open up the Bible for all sorts of meddling and subversion …. human temptation to create self gain is the root cause of this kind of intransigence And so are the unregenerate followers guilty who embrace false teaching by choice The world is currently in the “dispensation” of the Lord’s grace …. different from the previous, and about to end for the beginning of the next [Ephesians 1:10; 3:2; Colossians 1:25]

The only false teaching is dispensationalism itself, it is not historic despite a few cherry picked teachings of some early fathers. The consensus view rejected that, evidenced in the Creed.
 
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ebedmelech

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The only false teaching is dispensationalism itself, it is not historic despite a few cherry picked teachings of some early fathers. The consensus view rejected that, evidenced in the Creed.
Indeed it is. The sad part about it is that many believe in it...because they want to believe they will escape a fabricated 7 year tribulation that already occurred.

Paul tells us in Romans 5 "tribulation works patience"...Paul and Peter were martyred in the tribulation also.

Here in America we have freedom of religion, yet saints around the world are martyred or imprisoned for their faith...and here we have a group looking for a "great tribulation"...it boggles the mind.
 
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ebedmelech said in post 43:

Jesus even weighs in on it with the parable of the "wheat and the tares" in Matthew 13:36-43.

In Matthew 13:38, the good seed are the elect, and the weeds/tares are the nonelect, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

ebedmelech said in post 43:

Pretty clear...but find Jesus ANYWHERE speaking of a rapture prior to his second coming.

The rapture won't occur until the 2nd coming, for the reasons given in the 2nd section of post 14.

ebedmelech said in post 43:

However you're pretty much cornered when he says the first four words of 1 Corinthians 15:24 "THEN COMES THE END..."

The "end" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 will be at the end of all of the future, never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must bodily resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created and the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

ebedmelech said in post 43:

Why does John not speak to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, if he's writing in 95AD?

Because Revelation is about future events (Revelation 1:1), not past events.

ebedmelech said in post 43:

Obviously you're totally ignoring many OT prophets who tell us Israel is the harlot as well as is figuratively Babylon.

Note that passages like Ezekiel 16 don't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these, and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history, can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.

ebedmelech said in post 43:

When you read Jesus lament Jerusalem as DESOLATE in Matthew 23:37-39, you should be able to understand this.

Matthew 23:38 refers to the spiritual desolation of Jerusalem because of its rejection of Jesus (1 John 5:12b), whereas Matthew 23:39 refers to the future salvation of all the unbelieving elect Jews in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

ebedmelech said in post 43:

At that point it became about the "Jerusalem above" as Paul tells us in Galatians 4:26.

God still has regard for the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). Even during the future, literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).

ebedmelech said in post 43:

At that point it became about the "Jerusalem above" as Paul tells us in Galatians 4:26.

Regarding Galatians 4:26, it and Hebrews 11:16 refers to the heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22-23), which will physically descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-4) after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:4 to 21:4).

ebedmelech said in post 43:

Do yourself a favor and understand what John means when he was told to "measure the city"...it was for destruction!

Are you thinking of Revelation 11:1-2? If so, note that this passage, like Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, requires that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

ebedmelech said in post 43:

Pretty much fantasy because of a failure to understand apocalyptic language of scripture.

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.
 
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ebedmelech

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In Matthew 13:38, the good seed are the elect, and the weeds/tares are the nonelect, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).
No. Deal with the parable based on what it says. It say's nothing about a millennium nor New Jerusalem. The parable is making the point that Jesus will separate wheat from tares...that's the ONLY point Jesus makes..."all your "other stuff" just isn't mentioned...so that is how you impose on a passage. Speak to that which is in the parable.

The rapture won't occur until the 2nd coming, for the reasons given in the 2nd section of post 14.
You reasons are loaded with impsosition...but yes the only rapture is at Christ return.

The "end" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 will be at the end of all of the future, never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming,...
The end...is the end. As I have stated to you before 1 Corinthians 15 doesn't require Jesus to do anything immediately..it says He will do it...so He will do it

Because Revelation is about future events (Revelation 1:1), not past events.
You're free to believe that...but those events are not future. All you do is read Revelation knowing it expands on Matthew 24...and we know Jerusalem fell as well as the temple.

Note that passages like Ezekiel 16 don't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these, and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history, can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.
You're quite confused here because you're very inconsistent in allowing passages to say...what they say. So here again you come with "doesn't requires" and "could means". So when you know what it means...we'll talk about it.

Matthew 23:38 refers to the spiritual desolation of Jerusalem because of its rejection of Jesus (1 John 5:12b), whereas Matthew 23:39 refers to the future salvation of all the unbelieving elect Jews in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).
No Jesus said "YOUR HOUSE (which is the temple), is left to you desolate". The temple was God's house until that point. Ask yourself why Jesus speaks of all the prophets that were sent to Jerusalem if this is only spiritual. Jesus then moves to the temple destruction at Matthew 24:15. The veil of the temple was ripped in half when Jesus died...IT WAS THE END OF TEMPLE WORSHIP FOREVER.

PUT DOWN ALL YOUR COMMENTARIES and read the scriptures Bible2. You might get it clear. As for the rest of your post...keep that...we've been there before.
 
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ebedmelech

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Well, I do not own a have a Scofield bible . I refer to my KJV study bible and I also like the ESV . I got some of my references from theopedia which is an evangelical encyclopedia of biblical Christianity . This is used for basic different Christian theological beliefs.

I put everything that I read, whether on this forum , books, ect, under the light of the word to see if it matches up with scripture . One must be able to discern something that is true to the scripture verses false . The only way to not be deceived is to know what the word of God says. Everyone should be a good berean and search out matters to see if they are true to the word .

What I said above does not fall apart in its eschatology . It actually makes perfect sense . If one allegories the scripture instead of taking it literally, a lot of confusion can happen . I believe that the literal interpretation is the only way to interpret scripture .
So what do you do when Paul tells you this allegory?:
Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.


So there we have Paul clearly telling us Sarah and Hager (way back in Genesis 16), are allegories...so what do you do with that? Since it goes back to Abram, Sarah and Hagar...it seems to me you have to look at it the allegory from that point forward...so now what?

:confused:
 
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ebedmelech said in post 47:

Deal with the parable based on what it says. It say's nothing about a millennium nor New Jerusalem.

Neither does it deny a future millennium or a literal New Jerusalem.

For New Jerusalem is a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It's God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, both Jews and Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20) and his setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

ebedmelech said in post 47:

Deal with the parable based on what it says. It say's nothing about a millennium nor New Jerusalem.

Regarding a future millennium, note that there are at least 8 different scriptural reasons for reading the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' future 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he's walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there's no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but not until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

ebedmelech said in post 47:

The parable is making the point that Jesus will separate wheat from tares...

Right. But other scriptures show that he won't do that until after the future millennium.

ebedmelech said in post 47:

As I have stated to you before 1 Corinthians 15 doesn't require Jesus to do anything immediately..it says He will do it...so He will do it

Right, but he won't do 1 Corinthians 15:24 until after the never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15.

ebedmelech said in post 47:

You're free to believe that...but those events are not future. All you do is read Revelation knowing it expands on Matthew 24...and we know Jerusalem fell as well as the temple.

See post 37 for the reasons why Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 are still future to us.

ebedmelech said in post 47:

Jesus then moves to the temple destruction at Matthew 24:15.

Just as Matthew 24:2 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD, so Matthew 24:15 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is referring to Daniel 11:31.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").
 
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ebedmelech

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Neither does it deny a future millennium or a literal New Jerusalem.

For New Jerusalem is a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16),...
It is a parable Bible2...so when you introduce the millennium into a parable that doesn't mention it, you've imposed on the parable. Jesus speaks to the "wheat and the tares" nothing else...so basically you deal with that and that alone. It mentions nothing of New Jerusalem.

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20) and his setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).
No. That's what you're looking for. The kingdom exist right now...which is why Jesus started His ministry saying “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”. What happens on Jesus return is "Jerusalem above" comes to earth.

*Why does New Jerusalem come down as a bride prepared for her husband?

*Why is the church called the bride of Christ?

*Why does Paul tell us as believers we are married to another.

You're missing the language of scripture.
Regarding a future millennium, note that there are at least 8 different scriptural reasons for reading the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' future 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First,...
No. I'm not going to do that again with you. The 1000 years represent Christ's reign in entirety from His resurrection until He judges the world.

Right. But other scriptures show that he won't do that until after the future millennium.
Other scriptures are not mentioned in the parable. Jesus is making one point... He will separate the wheat from the tares.

Right, but he won't do 1 Corinthians 15:24 until after the never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15.
What 1 Corinthians 15:24 says "then comes the end"...so "then comes the end". Revelation 19:7 - 20:15 is after the end. It is "the end" because God's salvation plan ends...no one else can be saved...so it's THE END.

See post 37 for the reasons why Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 are still future to us.
No need to. They have happened.
Just as Matthew 24:2 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD, so Matthew 24:15 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD.
*Matthew 24:2-8 describe conditions that will exist throughout time, which is why Jesus calls them "birth pangs".

*Matthew 24:9-14 Jesus tells the disciples to expect to be killed as the tribulation happens but that the gospel will be preached to ALL nations.

*Matthew 24:16 begins the destruction of Jerusalem.
In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is referring to Daniel 11:31...
We've done that before Bible2. It's Jerusalem's destruction and the temple as well. The abomination of desolation is committed by the Romans when they enter the temple to destroy it. It's not a repeat of Antiochus Epiphanies...what it is is something they can relate to BECAUSE of the history of what Antiochus did in desecrating the temple. Jesus KNEW they could make that connection...and it WAS a SIGN to flee Jerusalem...which the saints of that time DID do.
 
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ebedmelech said:
So what do you do when Paul tells you this allegory?: Galatians 4:21-31 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman. So there we have Paul clearly telling us Sarah and Hager (way back in Genesis 16), are allegories...so what do you do with that? Since it goes back to Abram, Sarah and Hagar...it seems to me you have to look at it the allegory from that point forward...so now what? :confused:

Well ebed, I have to disagree with you.

The historical events, in genesis 16 and others written in the Old Testament are not just 'stories' but true historical events that have actually occurred . They serve many purposes: they give us a time line of history, they give us lessons to learn for today and most of all, many give us God's redemptive plan that 's found in our Messiah Jesus Christ. God shows His redemptive plan all the way back to Adam and Eve( by the way, it's true historical history). If one doesn't get this first important step of biblical interpretation , the bible will not be able to be understood in the fullest sense.

I really believe that Paul was making an important comparison in Galatians 4:21-31. This compares the people of Isaac and the people of Ishmael . One group is the chosen people, the people of the promised covenant. The other group does not have the promised covenant . These peoples literally live on the earth today. ( one ,the Jews and the other, the Arabs ). One according to spirit and one according to the flesh. However, God has blessed both groups by making them great nations. God has made the nation of Israel the Jewish people His chosen people . IMO , they are a people who are written about more in scripture than any other because God wanted to show us things for our lives today so He has worked through the Jewish people. For one thing, our Messiah , Jesus Christ is a Jew.

I really want also to make my point about the literal interpretation of the bible and why it is the only way. God wants us to be able to understand His word. God even tells us to handle His word of truth correctly. Look at 2 Tim 2:15" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed , rightly dividing the word of truth". Jesus took the scriptures literally by quoting from the Old Testament . When tempted by Satan in Luke 4, He used Old Testament verses in Deuteronomy 8:3 for example . Jesus told the disciples to go and preach the gospel the world and believe on Him who was sent. This is literal. Look at acts 16.

Even though we take the bible literally as a whole, there still contains figures of speech, poetry, symbols,parables, ect. It is to be taken in the plain sense or common sense. This gives no room for confusion. We must take the Word that God has given us literally. I also believe that the study of Gods prophetic scripture must also be taken in the literal sense. God works in the past , present and the prophecies that will happen in the future.
 
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ebedmelech said in post 50:

It is a parable Bible2...so when you introduce the millennium into a parable that doesn't mention it, you've imposed on the parable. Jesus speaks to the "wheat and the tares" nothing else...so basically you deal with that and that alone. It mentions nothing of New Jerusalem.

Note that it doesn't impose on the parable to understand it's explanation in Matthew 13:40-43 in light of what other scriptures show: i.e. that the unsaved won't be cast into the lake of fire until after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), and that a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) will then be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

ebedmelech said in post 50:

The kingdom exist right now...

Amen.

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

ebedmelech said in post 50:

What happens on Jesus return is "Jerusalem above" comes to earth.

Actually, New Jerusalem won't come to earth until some 1,000 years after Jesus returns (Revelation chapters 19 to 21).

ebedmelech said in post 50:

*Why does New Jerusalem come down as a bride prepared for her husband?

Revelation 21:2,9,10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else, like how in Matthew 21:19 the fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the 12 apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's 12 tribes on them (Revelation 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

ebedmelech said in post 50:

Other scriptures are not mentioned in the parable. Jesus is making one point... He will separate the wheat from the tares.

Right. But to correctly determine when he will do that, other scriptures need to be considered.

For, generally, even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things it doesn't say, things which would contradict what other verses say. In order to arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We can't say that it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day. So when John 3:36 is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 doesn't subtract, or contradict, the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

Another way John 3:36 must be qualified is that we can't say that it means that all we have to do is believe for at least one moment during our lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other verses which show that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue to believe to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the conditions that the Bible as a whole shows must be met in order for initially saved people to obtain ultimate salvation.

ebedmelech said in post 50:

What 1 Corinthians 15:24 says "then comes the end"...so "then comes the end".

Right. But to correctly determine when it will come, other scriptures need to be considered.

ebedmelech said in post 50:

Revelation 19:7 - 20:15 is after the end.

Rather, the end is after Revelation 20:15.

ebedmelech said in post 50:

It is "the end" because God's salvation plan ends...no one else can be saved...so it's THE END.

Note that no scripture says or requires that no one can be saved after Jesus' 2nd coming. For during the future millennium, after Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 66:15-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), the gospel will continue to be preached and save some souls in every nation. And the saved will be brought to worship Jesus ruling in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 66:19-21, Micah 4:2).

ebedmelech said in post 50:

*Matthew 24:9-14 Jesus tells the disciples to expect to be killed as the tribulation happens but that the gospel will be preached to ALL nations.

While Jesus was speaking with the apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in his mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). The events he foretold there didn't happen in the lifetime of the apostles, or any time since then, but will occur in our future.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) and their becoming offended (Matthew 24:10) that he would let them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

Also, the gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation (Revelation 14:6).

ebedmelech said in post 50:

Jesus KNEW they could make that connection...and it WAS a SIGN to flee Jerusalem...which the saints of that time DID do.

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that this doesn't have to mean first century Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
 
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