Dispensational Framework

[Time Watcher]

Beware of the false teacher who discounts a dispensational view of the Bible and at the same time dismisses the scriptural teaching of a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia [called out ones] just before He brings His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief at the end of this present age

The central theme of those who do this is to employ a bogus ruse built around the idea that Darby’s discoveries of progressive revelation related to a dispensational structure, and his alleged attempt to create the idea of what they call a “pre-tribulation rapture” …. all of this can be proven to be based upon a hoax

These false teachers at the same time hold replacement theology which claims the Lord is finished with
His national people Israel …. this idea cannot be supported by the prophetic scriptures of the Bible …. these related scriptures project a “dispensational” framework which is ignored by the false teacher

When ever you see this combination of thinking, you can know without a doubt that that the false teacher is creating a deception for nefarious and proprietary ambitions

This false teaching exists in the many different sects of professing Christianity and has given rise to off course theologies that include preterism, post-tribulation thinking, anti-Semitism, the idea of a revived European based Roman Empire, the implication of a Pope lead RCC end time “antichrist” maker, the hatching of numerous ineffective middle of the road Christian “look a likes”, and similar religious cults …. and certainly the virulent “anti-christ” religion of Islam

All of these must necessarily first dismantle the Lord’s structure and framework of His written Word which reflects His ways of dealing with fallen humanity from the beginning to the ending of the same …. this behavior then open up the Bible for all sorts of meddling and subversion …. human temptation to create self gain is the root cause of this kind of intransigence

And so are the unregenerate followers guilty who embrace false teaching by choice

The world is currently in the “dispensation” of the Lord’s grace …. different from the previous, and about to end for the beginning of the next [Ephesians 1:10; 3:2; Colossians 1:25]

 

[notreligus]

Beware of the false teacher who discounts a dispensational view of the Bible and at the same time dismisses the scriptural teaching of a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia [called out ones] just before He brings His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief at the end of this present age

The central theme of those who do this is to employ a bogus ruse built around the idea that Darby’s discoveries of progressive revelation related to a dispensational structure, and his alleged attempt to create the idea of what they call a “pre-tribulation rapture” …. all of this can be proven to be based upon a hoax

These false teachers at the same time hold replacement theology which claims the Lord is finished with
His national people Israel …. this idea cannot be supported by the prophetic scriptures of the Bible …. these related scriptures project a “dispensational” framework which is ignored by the false teacher

When ever you see this combination of thinking, you can know without a doubt that that the false teacher is creating a deception for nefarious and proprietary ambitions

This false teaching exists in the many different sects of professing Christianity and has given rise to off course theologies that include preterism, post-tribulation thinking, anti-Semitism, the idea of a revived European based Roman Empire, the implication of a Pope lead RCC end time “antichrist” maker, the hatching of numerous ineffective middle of the road Christian “look a likes”, and similar religious cults …. and certainly the virulent “anti-christ” religion of Islam

All of these must necessarily first dismantle the Lord’s structure and framework of His written Word which reflects His ways of dealing with fallen humanity from the beginning to the ending of the same …. this behavior then open up the Bible for all sorts of meddling and subversion …. human temptation to create self gain is the root cause of this kind of intransigence

And so are the unregenerate followers guilty who embrace false teaching by choice

The world is currently in the “dispensation” of the Lord’s grace …. different from the previous, and about to end for the beginning of the next [Ephesians 1:10; 3:2; Colossians 1:25]

There is bad teaching on both sides of this fence. Your comments are far-reaching and unfair.

Those who believe in the pre-trib rapture are the same ones who say that the re-gathering of the Jews in Israel is a sign of the end but the dispensational position is that 2/3 of them are to be killed. On one hand Christians say we love Israel, and then we want the Jews to hurry-up and get ready for their slaughter.

The only thing I believe about the Tribulation/Great Tribulation that I believe without doubt is that the portion that is God's own unleashed wrath is not for His children, so He will let them escape this wrath. If you want to label that as pre-wrath, then do so.

A dispensation is merely a dealing. God is dealing with mankind on an individual basis now under the New Covenant. Previously, under the old, obsolete covenant, he dealt with a nation and that nation's priesthood. Under the New Covenant, a blood covenant, believers are part of the priesthood with Christ as the Great High Priest. Christ is also the Mediator. If Christ is not your Mediator then you have no one standing before God and claiming your righteousness in Him before the Father. Dispensationals claim that this is all for the Jews. That's just not true.

The consummation of Christ's kingdom will be on the New Earth and He will be with His one people, not two. This will be the restoration of the Edenic relationship that God wanted to have with mankind from the beginning, but man rejected this relationship by breaking the covenant. Sin and death resulted. Only the shed blood of Christ could reconcile mankind back to God. That is why we must now be under this New blood covenant. Without this God has not extended any Grace to us.

Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.
Heb 9:2 For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place.
Heb 9:3 Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place,
Heb 9:4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Heb 9:5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
Heb 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Heb 9:9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,
Heb 9:10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Time Watcher]

I see these things much differently that you do

It is the Lord who decides how to accomplish His ultimate purposes whether men can justify or not

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

I completely reject Replacement Theology and always have. But I used to be firmly Post-Trib, now I'm leaning toward Mid-Trib.

Romans 11 makes clear the Spiritual Blindness on Israel is temporary.

 

[Time Watcher]

There is bad teaching on both sides of this fence. Your comments are far-reaching and unfair.
"Those who believe in the pre-trib rapture are the same ones who say that the re-gathering of the Jews in Israel is a sign of the end but the dispensational position is that 2/3 of them are to be killed. On one hand Christians say we love Israel, and then we want the Jews to hurry-up and get ready for their slaughter"


Humans do not get to vote in all that the Lord has determined; For example: He has revealed in advance that 2/3 of Israel will perish during the coming time of Jacob’s trouble …. and this will be their by choice not to turn and accept Him as their Messiah [this is no different for any human] …. no true believer wishes this upon them, but knows in advance that it is going to happen [Zechariah 13:8-9]

 

[Time Watcher]

"Romans 11 makes clear the Spiritual Blindness on Israel is temporary"


No doubt about this

 

[ebedmelech]

Dispensationalism is a view that disregards historical fulfillment of the scriptures, denies that Christ reigns right now, and erroneously believes that the nation of Israel is God's focus of the last days.

The failure to acknowledge the NT is interpreting the OT through the writngs of the apostles is what leads to this error.

There is no "replacement theology" as falsely stated by dispensationalist. God told Abraham "in his descendant all of the earth will be blessed. We are told by Paul that descendant (seed) is Christ.

This is a spiritual Israel that start's with Paul in Romans 2...and he makes the point at Romans 2:28. 29.

Read that.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Time Watcher]

"Read that"


Have read Romans 11 100s of times

Explain these scriptures verse by verse ebed [Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39]

Tell me who Israel is

And if you are going to commit the verses to allegory that do not fit your bonding, no need to respond

Picking out scriptures and choosing the literal or the allegorical interpretation is ambivalent and subjective

A methodology used for manipulating to the persuasion of the interpreter

One can make the Bible tell what ever they want by creative design

Literal interpretation and reserched symbolism within the scope and framework of the Lord's presentation prevents meddling with the scriptures

 

[ebedmelech]

"Read that"


Have read Romans 11 100s of times

Explain these scriptures verse by verse ebed [Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39]

Tell me who Israel is

And if you are going to commit the verses to allegory that do not fit your bonding, no need to respond

Picking out scriptures and choosing the literal or the allegorical interpretation is ambivalent and subjective

A methodology used for manipulating to the persuasion of the interpreter

One can make the Bible tell what ever they want by creative design

Literal interpretation and reserched symbolism within the scope and framework of the Lord's presentation prevents meddling with the scriptures

Romans 11 is making the case that Jews and Gentiles are ONE OLIVE TREE grafted together therefore making the case that ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.

So...when one takes off the "dispensational glasses" and allows the text to speak, it's easy to see.

It's pretty well summed up as God speaks of Jews and Gentile in the same breath at Romans 11:25-27
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

The Jews and Gentiles are "all Israel". Furthermore do your word study and you will find out that verse 26 is properly translated "and IN THIS WAY all Israel will be saved".

Again...it's THE ISRAEL OF GOD, which is again why Peter calls us "A HOLY NATION".

 

[Time Watcher]

Don't boast against the branches ebed

Israel is of the original tree .... you as a Gentile are a wild olive shoot grafted in

Romans 11 is very clear about this and tells of a definitive difference between the Lord's nation of Israel and the Gentiles .... this is what the passage is all about

And how do you deal with this [Romans 11:25-36] ... this passage of scripture stands in your way

Did you ever wonder why you take a stand against this truth?

My guess is that you have been taught to do so

Your comments sound much like the teaching of the SDA "church"

Who are those of Israel living in the land of Israel today in your opinion and why are they there? .... does this offend you?

And why do you think that the Lord is against your claim [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]?

You pass these biblical facts of to "dispensationalism" as if this was some sort of a false religion teaching against the Lord's very words .... when in fact it is the Lord who teaches His intents for His national people who will turn and believe at the end of this present age .... after His age of grace

He is not telling of a few that have turned over the last 2000 years .... Israel is still in blindness at this very hour .... but this condition is going to change for the nation soon

You say that you are of these still in blindness .... how is this possible for you?

 

[zeke37]

Beware of the false teacher who discounts a dispensational view of the Bible and at the same time dismisses the scriptural teaching of a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia [called out ones] just before He brings His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief at the end of this present age

a. many of us here understand God deals in dispensations.
it is when u or others want to teach that God will accept animal sacrifice in the future
as pleasing to Him
then that is when I speak up against it

now u have not said as much yet, but we shall see. 1+1=2

b. the trib is not the wrath of God
the wrath of God very clearly begins after the trib, at His post trib only Coming

The central theme of those who do this is to employ a bogus ruse built around the idea that Darby’s discoveries of progressive revelation related to a dispensational structure, and his alleged attempt to create the idea of what they call a “pre-tribulation rapture” …. all of this can be proven to be based upon a hoax

not at all.
whether u prove or disprove Macphersons intent
with regards to MMacD's dream and Darby's visit,
doesn't make it a hoax or not....
and would not change anyone's opinion.

I've been a post tribber for 8 years
and I never heard of him before u brought him up

Darby had long standing public views even published 1830...post tribber.
he went to MMacD's per his orders
that is not under dispute
he changed his theology that same year and passed it on.

later, he was either mistaken or lied
when answering a question put to him
about the WHEN part of his adoption of his new pre trib theology
as he answered and put his "conversion" 2 years prior to the year he actually did.
it's a matter of public record on both ends.

silly really, considering his old views were in print in early 1830.

anywho, doesn't mater to me,
except that you did NOT prove ANYTHING

These false teachers at the same time hold replacement theology which claims the Lord is finished with
His national people Israel …. this idea cannot be supported by the prophetic scriptures of the Bible …. these related scriptures project a “dispensational” framework which is ignored by the false teacher

I think u place too many of "us" that disagree with you
into the same category

not believing in Darby's version of dispensational eschatology
does not necessarily mean we believe God is done with Israel.

some may believe that, some may not. I don't.
but I know He will not accept animal blood sacrifices again.

you can't paint that wide a stroke when dealing with the masses

When ever you see this combination of thinking, you can know without a doubt that that the false teacher is creating a deception for nefarious and proprietary ambitions

maybe some feel that you guys are downplaying Christ's sacrifice
for the forgiveness of our sins.
I mean, that's a HUGE issue

God is not going to re-allow that, after Christ paid that price for us ONCE AND FOR ALL already

This false teaching exists in the many different sects of professing Christianity and has given rise to off course theologies that include preterism,

maybe

post-tribulation thinking,

no

anti-Semitism,

probably, at least the Christian version

the idea of a revived European based Roman Empire,

I no longer believe that,
but that has nothing to do with dispensational disagreements

the implication of a Pope lead RCC end time “antichrist” maker,

many pre trib dispy's think that too
and btw, there are post trib dispy's too.

the hatching of numerous ineffective middle of the road Christian “look a likes”, and similar religious cults ….

again, some do, some don't

and certainly the virulent “anti-christ” religion of Islam

they never believed Israel had/has ANY place with God,
let alone ever worried about dispensational theology
dispensational theology has only been around for 150+ years
and ALL of these groups u've just mentioned
have had their ideals in place a lot longer than that
do u realize how silly you sound?

dispy haters did not give rise to these groups,
as they were ALL around before Darby invented or discovered it

All of these must necessarily first dismantle the Lord’s structure and framework of His written Word which reflects His ways of dealing with fallen humanity from the beginning to the ending of the same ….

and how is that?

this behavior then open up the Bible for all sorts of meddling and subversion …. human temptation to create self gain is the root cause of this kind of intransigence

not all of us are in it for the money, lol.

not even all the pre trib book authors that FLOOD the market.
there's a few non profit ones i'm sure, lol.

buy my book...
it's about the end times that u wont be here for
but u MUST buy it NOW! lol.

And so are the unregenerate followers guilty who embrace false teaching by choice

[staff edit].

The world is currently in the “dispensation” of the Lord’s grace …. different from the previous, and about to end for the beginning of the next [Ephesians 1:10; 3:2; Colossians 1:25]

so do u think God will want animal sacrifice from Israel? yes or no?

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 1:

Beware of the false teacher who discounts a dispensational view of the Bible and at the same time dismisses the scriptural teaching of a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia [called out ones] just before He brings His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief at the end of this present age

Regarding "a dispensational view of the Bible", dispensationalism is mistaken because it tries to set up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, whereas the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Time Watcher said in post 1:

Beware of the false teacher who discounts a dispensational view of the Bible and at the same time dismisses the scriptural teaching of a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia [called out ones] just before He brings His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief at the end of this present age

Regarding "a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia", note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Time Watcher said in post 1:

Beware of the false teacher who discounts a dispensational view of the Bible and at the same time dismisses the scriptural teaching of a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia [called out ones] just before He brings His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief at the end of this present age

Regarding "His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief", note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 1:

Beware of the false teacher who discounts a dispensational view of the Bible and at the same time dismisses the scriptural teaching of a pre-tribulation intervention by Jesus Christ to call His ecclesia [called out ones] just before He brings His unprecedented wrath upon a world of unbelief at the end of this present age

Regarding "the end of this present age", while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur before the tribulation, or even at his (post-trib) 2nd coming, or when it would occur, just as he didn't tell them many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that he would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation, that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

Time Watcher said in post 1:

These false teachers at the same time hold replacement theology which claims the Lord is finished with
His national people Israel ….

Even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

Also, immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Time Watcher said in post 1:

The world is currently in the “dispensation” of the Lord’s grace …. different from the previous, and about to end for the beginning of the next [Ephesians 1:10; 3:2; Colossians 1:25]

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Ephesians 1:21b, Titus 2:12, or Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is a church age or an age of grace, or that the age to come won't also be a church age and an age of grace. Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

*******

Time Watcher said in post 10:

Explain these scriptures verse by verse ebed [Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39]

Regarding Ezekiel 39, note that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls, and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11). The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

--

Ezekiel 39:22 means that near the end of the safe time of the future millennium (Ezekiel 38:11), the mortal Israelites living on the earth will have become complacent and backslidden away from God (Ezekiel 39:26,7). So, after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), as a punishment, God will let them be taken into captivity (Ezekiel 39:23-29) during the Gog/Magog time (Ezekiel 38:11-13). God will then bring judgment against Gog and Magog, and the mortal Israelites will return to being faithful to God (Ezekiel 39:21-29).

*******

Time Watcher said in post 12:

And why do you think that the Lord is against your claim [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]?

The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 2:9b and Revelation 3:9 were referring to unbelieving genetic Jews living in the literal, first century AD cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia (Revelation 2:8, Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) (what's today western Turkey). Unbelieving genetic Jews aren't truly Jews in the sense that even though they're physically circumcised, they're spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so they're spiritually not Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). But all believers, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Revelation 3:9b could have been fulfilled in the first century AD in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant that Jesus had made it so that congregation could preach the gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly unbelieving genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 7:

God told Abraham "in his descendant all of the earth will be blessed. We are told by Paul that descendant (seed) is Christ.

That's right.

All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

 

[Time Watcher]

I will let ebed, B2, and zeke duke it out on this subject

It will be interesting to see what happens of significance .... if anything; their current understandings are all very different with regard to critical subjects involved .... the Bible has only one correct and comprehensive view

 

[ebedmelech]

I will let ebed, B2, and zeke duke it out on this subject

It will be interesting to see what happens of significance .... if anything; their current understandings are all very different with regard to critical subjects involved .... the Bible has only one correct and comprehensive view

Don't bank on it, Time Watcher. Bible2 has nothing to do...so he logs on and writes essays (from commentaries basically).

Next...you can try all you want to affiliate me with the SDA Church...however I never have nor never will be associated with the SDA because Christ fulfilled all of the Sabbath days and holy days and feast. So play that tune all you want. Just because they have a somewhat proper view of Revelation doesn't affiliate me with them.

I attend a Southern Baptist Church...however, I don't agree with the dispensational eschatology my church teaches because I read and study the word to be approved of God, not a church. I also heed Ephesians 4:1-6:
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

When you understand that it's not necessary to try and make an issue of what one believes of the end times, because no denomination has it totally correct, you can coexist with those you don't agree with in love...and let the Lord work through His Spirit. So you can try as you might, I'm firm in my view of the end times for the most part. That which I'm unsure about, I say I'm not sure, and continue to study.

Lastly I know this...dispensational eschatology has missed the WHOLE BOAT thinking there are two peoples of God, when there is ONLY ONE...made up of Jews and Gentiles...so you run along now.

As the reformation of proper eschatology gains ground...you can stick to what you have been taught...or take another look.

 

[Time Watcher]

Nay

Let's drop the conversation

A correct literal interpretation of the prophetic scriptures and preterism cannot mix .... like oil and water [get is?] .... oil .... and water

Nothing gained for you and I to continue

 

[bibletruth469]

Dispensationalism is the belief that God throughout history has used different periods of time for different purposes . The church age is a different period in history in which God deals with the church. Some of the other times in history including the tribulational period, God's main focus is Israel, His chosen people. I personally believe that God works in different dispensations and that the church and Israel are 2 separate entities. I believe that the bible is to be taken literally and that there will be a literal mellinimum kingdom.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith throughout time. Look at rom 4:1-4 . Vs. 3: Abraham believed God , and it was counted unto him for righteousness . However, there is a difference between the old and New Testaments about how the salvation was manifested. For example, there is a dispensation of the law and this is how God dealt with His people before Christ came. They had to make sacrifices of animals to cover sins and they looked towards their Messiah. Where , since Christ came into the world, true believers are made righteous only through Christ and His perfect blood sacrifice for us by dying for our sins.

The bible teaches that there are still promises that are yet to be fulfilled in dealing with Israel. The nation will completely be restored. Look at Romans 11:25-33. It also shows here along with many other verses in the bible that Israel and the Gentiles are separate groups of people. Look at verse 25 for example, " For I would not, brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in".

I also believe in premillennialism which means that the second coming of Christ after the tribulation ( not the rapture) will occur before a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. I also Believe in a pretribulation rapture which is our blessed hope. We are looking for that blessed hope now as we look for Christ . We are not looking for the tribulational period but the return of our Lord and savior for us!!