Dinosaur Extinction

[Calminian]

Now here's a subject I've heard about since I was a kid. My dino books always had pictures of volcanos exploding and meteors crashing into the ocean causing a tidal wave to fall on poor dilophosaurus (I bet some of you had those same books).

But now there's a plethora of theories as to why these prehistoric animals died out, while many of their contemporaries lived.

I'd be curious about the theories some posters hold here. If you're an older earther explain your theory—volcanos, meteors, flatulence, disease, etc.

And if you're a YEC I'd love to here your take as well.

I found this article helpful.

What Happened to the Dinosaurs?

My opinion:

The specific extinction of dinosaurs is best explained by human hunting. Nature just isn't that specific in its determinations. Nimrod was said to be a mighty hunter before Yahweh, and was also a man of renown in his day, and is the first conquerer spoken of in scripture. Josephus referred to him as a "tyrant" that men followed and feared.

Being that the Bible mentioned him as a "mighty hunter," it would seem a natural inference hunting was a way to gain esteem among men.

And then of course there are all those dragon slayer legends: Saint George, Hercules (a real person according to Josephus, BTW—Antiq. 1:241), Beowulf, Haymo, Bahram, Bulat the Brave, Dobrynja, Rostam, Rakhsh, Sekandar, Saint Margaret, Susa-no-o, Yorimasa, Beatus, Bienheuré (Saint Bienheuré), Clement of Metz (Saint Clement), Crescentinus (Saint Crescentinus), Donatus of Arezzo (Saint Donatus), Julian of Le Mans (Saint Julian), Leonard of Noblac (Saint Leonard), Mercurialis of Forlì (Saint Mercurialis), Margaret of Antioch (Saint Margaret), Martha of Bethany (Saint Martha), Quirinus of Malmedy (Saint Quirinus), Romanus of Rouen (Saint Romain), Veranus of Cavaillon (Saint Veran).

In short, the diluvian model for dinosaur extinction fits the evidence better than anything else. God killed all the dinosaurs in the flood, saving only representatives of each kind in the ark. Then man, in his pursuit of power and notoriety, slayed dragons and other dangerous beasts to excess. Eventually the dinosaurs were so weakened by the onslaught they went extinct, save a few who managed to survive throughout the ages, only to come across other men looking for a legacy.

Fossils? I'm not a scientist, but find it interesting that most dino fossil beds are associated with floods— local and flash floods according to the experts. But I would reckon most of these "experts" are not familiar with the global flood legends found all over the world.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

I dont believe in the biblical flood. but dinosaurs lived until about 4000 years ago and then became extinct. i dont know why. maybe hunting.

 

[Calminian]

I dont believe in the biblical flood. but dinosaurs lived until about 4000 years ago and then became extinct. i dont know why. maybe hunting.

BTW, hiscosmicgoldfish, I wanted to recommend this book to you.

Flood Legends [Paperback]
Charles Martin

Please pick it up when you get a chance. I think you'll appreciate the careful analysis of the subject by Martin. He also lists numerous legends in the appendix at the end, so you can read the source material for yourself.

I find flood legends to be one of the most convincing proofs of a global flood out there. I have a feeling this book will be a blessing.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

BTW, hiscosmicgoldfish, I wanted to recommend this book to you.

Flood Legends [Paperback]
Charles Martin

Please pick it up when you get a chance. I think you'll appreciate the careful analysis of the subject by Martin. He also lists numerous legends in the appendix at the end, so you can read the source material for yourself.

I find flood legends to be one of the most convincing proofs of a global flood out there. I have a feeling this book will be a blessing.

thanks, the book gets good reviews. but for me, it would take a lot of good evidence to convince me that there was one flood. i dont know, but the flood legends might have originated with the al ubaid civ. maybe they were the first people, or the first civilised people. the logistics of a global flood survival seem to me to have been impossible. and i don't believe in a yahweh god that kills off everybody, for whatever reason.

 

[Papias]

People have always tended to build cities on the banks of large rivers (for good reason), and big rivers occaisionally flood. Just based on that, one would expect flood legends from around the world. Flood stories from different cultures are hardly evidence for a global flood.

But, though I didn't bring it up first, that's off topic on this thread, which is about whether or not the dinosaurs died out due to human hunting. At some point I'll probably start a thread about the flood stories as evidence for a global flood.

Papias

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

there was a flood, which would have wiped out all the cities along the tigris and euphrates, that's a fact. some survivors would have created legends about it, attributing it to the gods. everything in hebrew culture goes back to the sumerians, and before the sumerians there was another people, who experienced the flood.
the figurines of mexico were dated to 4000 years ago. there are many thousands of them. it's a similar story with the ica stones. there are all the various races of people depicted in the americas, and that goes back a long time... before 4000 years ago.
if there was a global flood, then it would be impossible to generate all the races again, as they were before the flood.

 

[Calminian]

People have always tended to build cities on the banks of large rivers (for good reason), and big rivers occaisionally flood. Just based on that, one would expect flood legends from around the world. Flood stories from different cultures are hardly evidence for a global flood.

But, though I didn't bring it up first, that's off topic on this thread, which is about whether or not the dinosaurs died out due to human hunting. At some point I'll probably start a thread about the flood stories as evidence for a global flood.

Papias

That's okay, that's not off topic as I brought up flood legends. Feel free to address that.

I don't see how that works, though. People experience floods and then come up with legends of a global flood and a guy building a boat and escaping his family and with animals? Here are some stats that ICR put together on them.

Is there a favored family? 88%
Were they forewarned? 66%
Is flood due to wickedness of man? 66%
Is catastrophe only a flood? 95%
Was flood global? 95%
Is survival due to a boat? 70%
Were animals also saved? 67%
Did animals play any part? 73%
Did survivors land on a mountain? 57%
Was the geography local? 82%
Were birds sent out? 35%
Was the rainbow mentioned? 7%
Did survivors offer a sacrifice? 13%
Were specifically eight persons saved? 9%

But I would be curious about your theory of dinosaur extinction, assuming you hold the view dinos didn't exist with man.

My theory, just to elaborate a little more, is that most of them didn't make it a century past the flood. Only the smarter carnivores would have evaded the early hunters, like bear, dog and cat kinds. Not that all dinos were dumb, but they were not in league with carnivorous mammals. Crocs perhaps evaded extinction having the ability to hide in rivers and oceans.

Thus I'm doubtful we have any postdiluvian fossils of dinosaurs. Conversely, dinosaurs may have thrived in antediluvian times. Godly men would not have hunted them, as hunting wasn't God's will prior to the flood, and they may have even protected them from those not beholden to God's will.

I don't know how this would all work out, but this may explain why uniformitarian scientists think dinos are separated by vast amounts of time from other animals kinds. I also see a significant separation of these animals, not by time, but by a catastrophic event. The post and antediluvian worlds would have truly been completely different worlds in every way imaginable.

 

[Calminian]

there was a flood, which would have wiped out all the cities along the tigris and euphrates, that's a fact. some survivors would have created legends about it, attributing it to the gods. everything in hebrew culture goes back to the sumerians, and before the sumerians there was another people, who experienced the flood.
the figurines of mexico were dated to 4000 years ago. there are many thousands of them. it's a similar story with the ica stones. there are all the various races of people depicted in the americas, and that goes back a long time... before 4000 years ago.
if there was a global flood, then it would be impossible to generate all the races again, as they were before the flood.

I'd be curious your take on the book I mentioned.

 

[verysincere]

I don't know how this would all work out, but this may explain why uniformitarian scientists think dinos are separated by vast amounts of time from other animals kinds. I also see a significant separation of these animals, not by time, but by a catastrophic event. The post and antediluvian worlds would have truly been completely different worlds in every way imaginable.

1) Isn't it more likely EXPLAINED by the many radiometric and non-radiometric dating methods which provide evidence for when the dinosaurs lives? (I realize that you don't AGREE with those scientists, but why do you try to claim an explanation for their claims that has no basis in what they actually publish? Or are you saying that they lie about their true motivations? I'm not trying to be provocative. I'm just very baffled and surprised by your assertion. It seems to suggest some kind of vast, worldwide conspiracy.)

2) If the catastrophic event was of a global scope and of such severity, WHICH GEOLOGIC STRATA identifies the Noahic Flood event?


[And just to avoid any misunderstanding, I am a Bible-affirming, Christ-follower and I certainly affirm the reality of Noah's Flood as described in Genesis.]

 

[troodon]

Fossils? I'm not a scientist, but find it interesting that most dino fossil beds are associated with floods— local and flash floods according to the experts. But I would reckon most of these "experts" are not familiar with the global flood legends found all over the world.

Most tetrapod fossil strata are associated with rivers, but not necessarily with floods. Some fossiliferous deposits represent actual river channels, some represent deposits on floodplains (possibly associated with floods), some represent avulsion deposits (a different kind of flood), while others represent nearby small lake deposits (including some lakes formed out of abandoned channel meanders). There's a wide variety of depositional settings even within a "river deposit" and geologists are often able to tell them apart from one another. It's one of the things that makes flood geology so irritating - they chalk it all up to a global flood and make no effort to explain variability seen in the sedimentology.

And then, of course, there are fossil deposits not associated with rivers, which are abundant.

And no, the flood model does not explain dinosaur extinction better. It doesn't explain any physical evidence better. Flood myths are so similar because many of them originate from the same story, creationists and I agree on this. What I disagree with is the claim that sheep herders 8,000 years ago could tell the difference between a massive local flood and a global one.

Dinosaurs were killed off principally by an bolide impact. There have been claims that dinosaurs were particularly low in diversity before the impact but I find the evidence for this to be rather weak (though I admit to being heavily biased on the subject). There may be some evidence that the structure of latest Cretaceous dinosaur communities (at least in North America) were particularly vulnerable to extinction because of the nature of their foodwebs. I haven't yet looked into that claim enough to be willing to say yes or no.

 

[ChetSinger]

And if you're a YEC I'd love to here your take as well.

I found this article helpful.

What Happened to the Dinosaurs?

You'll get one person's YEC take from me: that article sums up my opinion on the subject very well. It gets a thumbs-up from me.

 

[Jadis40]

I'm content to say that dinosaurs were killed off 65 million years ago and leave it at that. Which is long before modern homo sapiens walked on this earth.

 

[Calminian]

....[And just to avoid any misunderstanding, I am a Bible-affirming, Christ-follower and I certainly affirm the reality of Noah's Flood as described in Genesis.]

Oh I'm sure you are. I'm not one to deny one of being a christian for not being a young earther, global-flooder, etc. I just think the church is missing a blessing. Trusting God at his word is the essence of the christian walk. We can only please God by faith, and modern science is making it hard for many christians to do this. That doesn't mean they're not saved, just missing the blessing of faith.

Not trying to be provocative either. That's just what Iv'e come to believe over this issue.

Regardless, please share you view of dinosaur extinction.

 

[Calminian]

....And no, the flood model does not explain dinosaur extinction better. It doesn't explain any physical evidence better. Flood myths are so similar because many of them originate from the same story, creationists and I agree on this. What I disagree with is the claim that sheep herders 8,000 years ago could tell the difference between a massive local flood and a global one.

The inference is not draw from specific testimonies, but the comparing of testimonies from those on different continents with no contact with one another. That's the real intriguing part.

Dinosaurs were killed off principally by an bolide impact. There have been claims that dinosaurs were particularly low in diversity before the impact but I find the evidence for this to be rather weak (though I admit to being heavily biased on the subject). There may be some evidence that the structure of latest Cretaceous dinosaur communities (at least in North America) were particularly vulnerable to extinction because of the nature of their foodwebs. I haven't yet looked into that claim enough to be willing to say yes or no.

I hear ya. I'm not going to dispute this as I'm not versed enough in these sciences to do so. I'll just say that it seems odd that a natural phenomenon like an impact of some sort would be so specific and surgical-like in its effects.

And as one who studies the bible and theology, I think even many christians underestimate the magnitude of the flood event, and what it implies. According to the Bible we went from a world where men and animals lived 10 times the lifespans they do today. That implies some unfathomable changes changes to this planet to bring about those changes. For that was God's purpose, to start over, and to erase the previous world and replace it with a drastically different one.

If we were to presuppose this really took place as the Bible explains, I would expect to see a very different world found in the fossil record, and could see how uniformitarians would look to vast amounts of time to bring it about. I would expect the antediluvian world to have very different plants animals thriving than those that do today. For even if every kind made it on the ark, it was a different world they traveled to, and I would expect a change in which animals thrived, and which did not, especially with the advent of God ordained hunting that didn't exist before. I would expect the bigger-brained mammal carnivores to have better success in the new world. I would also expect to see bigger animals in the old world, given their superior longevity.

 

[southcountry]

I think it was a disease of some sort. The way I have it figured the dinosaurs were from genetic manipulation from your ole buddy Satan, he was here before man. Reading Genesis we see:

3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Look around. What happened to those mighty reptiles that walked on two legs and flew in the air? Are they not all slithering around on the ground on their bellies?

 

[SkyWriting]

People have always tended to build cities on the banks of large rivers (for good reason), and big rivers occasionally flood. Just based on that, one would expect flood legends from around the world. Flood stories from different cultures are hardly evidence for a global flood.

What I find interesting is that people discount the Biblical story because of multiple accounts of floods being myths and you discount it because you think the myths might be all based in fact, but not a biblical "fact".

 

[SkyWriting]

I think it was a disease of some sort. The way I have it figured the dinosaurs were from genetic manipulation from your ole buddy Satan, he was here before man. Reading Genesis we see:

3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:Look around. What happened to those mighty reptiles that walked on two legs and flew in the air? Are they not all slithering around on the ground on their bellies?

Well, I don't know. But a flying rattler would be something to see. I have questions about the aerodynamics of a flying snake.
I know it works in the movies reasonably well.

 

[Calminian]

I think it was a disease of some sort. The way I have it figured the dinosaurs were from genetic manipulation from your ole buddy Satan, he was here before man. Reading Genesis we see:

3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Look around. What happened to those mighty reptiles that walked on two legs and flew in the air? Are they not all slithering around on the ground on their bellies?

Well the genetic manipulator in that case was God, not Satan. Satan didn't curse the snake, God did.

By the say, I love what Josephus said about curse on the snake.

Antiq. 1:50 (1.1.4) He also deprived the serpent of speech, out of indignation at his malicious disposition towards Adam. Besides this, he inserted poison under his tongue, and made him an enemy to man; and suggested to them that they should direct their strokes against his head, that being the place wherein lay his mischievous designs towards men, and it being easiest to take vengeance on him that way: and when he had deprived him of the use of his feet, and made him go rolling all along, and dragging himself upon the ground.​

It's interesting that the ancients believed the snake had legs before the curse, and that they attributed the snake's speechlessness and venom to the curse as well.

But we have to keep in mind, the snake's curse was merely symbolic of the real curse God placed on Satan.

Also, Satan's fall was actually in the Garden, and not some time before. He was blameless at that time, prior to his curse.

Ezek. 28:13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.

Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

Ezek. 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
Ezek. 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

Ezek. 28:16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

Ezek. 28:17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Ezek. 28:18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

Ezek. 28:19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’” ​

Satan fell right along with man, in the same Garden on the same day. Heaven was rocked on that day, just as earth was.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well the genetic manipulator in that case was God, not Satan. Satan didn't curse the snake, God did.

By the say, I love what Josephus said about curse on the snake.

Antiq. 1:50 (1.1.4) He also deprived the serpent of speech, out of indignation at his malicious disposition towards Adam. Besides this, he inserted poison under his tongue, and made him an enemy to man; and suggested to them that they should direct their strokes against his head, that being the place wherein lay his mischievous designs towards men, and it being easiest to take vengeance on him that way: and when he had deprived him of the use of his feet, and made him go rolling all along, and dragging himself upon the ground.​

It's interesting that the ancients believed the snake had legs before the curse, and that they attributed the snake's speechlessness and venom to the curse as well.

But we have to keep in mind, the snake's curse was merely symbolic of the real curse God placed on Satan.

Also, Satan's fall was actually in the Garden, and not some time before. He was blameless at that time, prior to his curse.

Ezek. 28:13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.

Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

Ezek. 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
Ezek. 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

Ezek. 28:16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

Ezek. 28:17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Ezek. 28:18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

Ezek. 28:19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’” ​

Satan fell right along with man, in the same Garden on the same day. Heaven was rocked on that day, just as earth was.

Thank you! I don't recall having read that.

 

[southcountry]

Well, I don't know. But a flying rattler would be something to see. I have questions about the aerodynamics of a flying snake.
I know it works in the movies reasonably well.

Well, we have flying squirrels ( they just glide), and the teradactile (sp) was supposed to not fly, but it did I guess. I wouldnt think snakes with some sort of wing would be out of the question even if it helped them jump out of trees.